Would any right wingers like to bring back workcamps for the workshy??

there is plenty below the surface just waiting.
like all the cuts that they wont be drawn on.
the only difference between workhouses and what they want is they dont want to provide the house but force unemployed to work for benefit

I don't know about right wingers but you are a right whinger

Not work camps but you shouldnt be capping the benefits at 26k. Should be lower

How would you deal with the workshy, Pandora?

they could pick a bit of litter up...and then the councils could  clamp down with £1000 fines for the mindless twats who scar our citys and countryside.

Knot in wood,

Always thought the same.

is it about the workshy pokermonster, or is it another euphemism called 'being competitive'?
Is it really people doing not a lot that rankles others or is it that they arnt being made to do others bidding to the extent others want?

Its extremely rare eve for the limited number of 'workshy' to have anything resembling a decent life, so who is worrying over it?
Those that care about value of things they have over what others dont?
Do ppl really have so little worth about themselves that they have to feel better off than others?

Surely Pandora, not many clowns left that believe politician`s make such decisions.

If you are very young though, please disregard that reply.

You may be right, Dusty, but as the original poster made the incredible assertion that some right-wingers would be happy to see folk gassed, I thought the very least he could do was to enlighten us with his own solution.

Personally, my own preference would be to bring back national service.  Alas, the armed services don't want them.

would only lead to more cuts

what I believe to be the problem is this;
You cant have a society that believes in ambition AND freeloading.

Either you are one extreme or the other.
If you get rewarded due to opportunity for your ability and ambition then you cant complain if others dont for whatever reason.
You dont subsidise others lives, you pay for the chance to make more money and live a better life than them.

As a totally lazy man. I love the taste of the jealousy the Calvinist Work ethic individuals who believe work is its own reward.  I stay home all day and watch old movies and munch on cherry cake and crisps. Go out to work wage slaves. i will wait for the system to crash. Take up my sword and slay the weak middle class and suck the marrow of their bones. Conan was on last night.

That sentiment is all very fine, Dusty, when one is talking about the extremes.  It's the hard-working middle to which I sympathise, slogging away to pretty much stay on a par with those who don't work at all.

Some form of socialism is the only way. Why should one person be better off than another just by accident of birth and being born with higher intelligence

But thats more due to inequality as a whole pokermonster.

Why cant we have a state where people who chose get scant reward for doing so, but have peace?

Do we really have to be the topless dancer crony capitalists that create middleman societies racing to the bottom only for the factor of creating opportunities for greed?

all capitalist societies try and out do each other by cutting throats

Perhaps it would be more about instilling a feeling of 'worth' and pride into the workshy. A sense of belonging to society, rather than lying in bed all day they could be up with the lark and setting out on their way to their various jobs. There they would meet a huge  variety of people and before long they would realise that its not their idle associates who are the happy ones...its the more industrious chaps. Those who set about their chores with gusto. Whistling and singing with the sheer pleasure of spending their time usefully. Endowing them with a sense of achievement that many of them have never known.

Arbeit macht frei.   'Twas forever thus.

thats quite right, but to assume all are like minded is wrong.
Not everyone gets an erection out of making money at the detriment of others for example.
There are plenty of worthy proud individuals who see no reason to enter the rat race for eg

its simple
just dont give em that much, but do allow them freedom from scrutiny

pandora at is again. Spouting shiit and scarpering.

Would any of you care if the lazy jobless were gassed ?? I expect you would all be quite happy.

What a hysterical histrionic bellend.

Pokermonster   
06 Apr 15 15:32 
How would you deal with the workshy, Pandora?

Sir, you must be a newcomer to 'Pandora threads'.

They consist of just the first post, and the OP never returns to it.

^^^ As indicated in the opening line by EO.

I'm ashamed to admit that I forget the names of many posters, SAGC.  Somebody might insult me in the most heinous manner and I'll merrily wish them good morning the following day!

you should all have to work for your jsa etc at min wage rates, don't care what so long as it's not free, but don't agree with people doing free work for sh&tty employers

ie if you get £73 you should do 11 hours of whatever you are told to do

I suggested that a long while ago pawras.

Minimum wage is the law.

Amazing how places Oxfam shops for one, can take on JSA people for free, but have no vacancies.

amazing too how value is always analysed for singularly those at the bottom while leaving contrived business can determine worth of those 'at the top' by differing cost to others

chances are that those at the bottom are actually worth 'their true money' and everyone else is either a liar, a cheat or an opportunist

Can we give the workshy a miss and send pandora to a work camp instead?

He/she would only go once...........never to return!

I suspect he'd be torn on what to do. The mention of the word work would send his back into spasm but the word camp would send his pecker into spasm.

Which would win out?

Why cant we have a state where people who chose get scant reward for doing so, but have peace?

Do you mean choose note to work? If so they should get nothing.

Anyone incapable of working through illness or disability should be looked after.
Anyone else should be hounded.

True freedom akabula. The freedom from the tyranny of work for the spongers and the freedom from the tyranny of having the state sticking its hand in the pocket of those paying for the leeches faags and booze.

Liberty. A wonderful thing.

I can't agree with your last sentence though. That is vindictiveness and not liberty. Why hound someone who does you no wrong? A simple social contract is all that is required. The feckless are obliged to do nothing as long as they do no harm to others.

I was suggesting that action under the current system whereby everybody gets something.
If somebody wants to 'opt out' without claiming then peace be with them otherwise hound the lazy.

It's noticeable that it took a leftie like Pandora to suggest Nazi style workcamps for the workshy. Also gassing them.

You don't have to delve very deep to get an incite into the way Pandora thinks.

I agree with you akabula but if the system is broken then you have to fix it and ours is broken in many ways. A country which borrows as much as we do to give to the EU, foreign aid, up to 26k in benefits no questions asked, which allows companies to plunder poorer countries for the few professionals they do have, bankers with blood on their hands to walk around outside gaol let alone continue to pay themselves ridiculous bonuses and rich people able to pick and choose if and when they will pay tax isn't my idea of one which is working in its citizens best interests.

Of course it isn't Eeter and I'm not sure which party if any would attack all of those problems.
Although I did like what Farage had to say on Foreign Aid.
We give money to India in aid ffs. A country which has a space programme and it's citizens are the biggest buyers of gold in the world.
As regards the bonuses it's beyond me why the government refuses to take action against the bankers.

Isn't it obvious? The country is one big housing ponzi scheme and the bankers sit at the top. It's one of the few things bringing any money in and they will throw you, me and everyone else under the bus to keep the illusion of prosperity going. An Englishman's home is his cash cow.

the op seems confused
work camps are a socialist concept, from the soviet gulags, to national socialist nazi germany, to north korean concentration camps etc
apparently it keeps the deniers, kulaks, heretics etc in line

Akabula
In response to your question;
Yes that's what I'm suggesting. Why should it be that inherently a human is forced into labour (non political sort)?
Has capitalism become the press gang of humanity?
I heard rhetoric like 'there is not price for life' yet there clearly is since health car have budgets.

So why can't humans decide to have a low cost life if chosen?
After all the following applies;

Firstly that, if everyone had the same (absolute equality) then everyone would be average.
I'd suggest that all those egos that require their lot to be bigger just for the sakes of feeling more adequate wouldn't be happy. Some people feel the need to be superior, as pathetic as that sounds.
Let people have very little and then everyone is happy.

Secondly, it's an ultimate fact that the value of workers diminish over time, and it's only pure luck and I'd suggest poor judgement that says technology makes up for the loss of jobs as the singularity progresses.
There will come a time where labour is worthless through technology so why not allow a percentage to 'drop out'?

The only real effect is we then need to regulate birth rates, but then really is it so bad to say no more than 2 or 3?

Capitalism works perfectly well on paper. When humans are added it fails, that's why every generations collapses financially because human greed (aka opportunism) leads to irregularities.
If we are set on being the topless dancer of vice over virtue then we have to have stop gaps or else we continually have short falls.

Cobblers.

You, as all are welcome to come up with a viable alternative

Unless ofc that alternative is simply 'throw them into the system'
Did H.G.Wells not forsee such an outcome?

Capitalism is down to competition and that leads to thriving greed and irregularities based on the harvest syndrome of humanity.

Cobblers. We may now have a developing problem as resources become more scarce but only a complete lunatic would argue that capitalism didn't pull socialism's pants down, turn it upside down and stick a pinneapple up its jacksy.

I never mentioned socialism.
So is pointing out capitalism's faults an inherent believer of socialism by default?
I see week in week out that plastic maggot cameron finger point at socialism as though it a free for all.
So we are 100% capitalism are we?
I'm sure the voting public would love to know that come voting time regarding the NHS.
Are China a fully socialist state also?
Bollox.

It was keys ionise that bailed out capitalism like it always does, but my point wasn't about socialism.
If we are to find a working medium then we can't pigeon hole.
The two have their faults, socialism is about people working for the collective but needing regulation at the top to stop tyranny and capitalism is about allowing the minority to sacrifice the majority within a finite economy with euphemisms such as 'ambition'
I didn't even tackle that in my suggestion.
I simply pointed the I'll of capitalism on contemporary's culture.

I have always said the weak link in all ideology is the human.
If it was real and true that privatising assets was advantageous to the collective then firstly GDP would rise, and secondly the elephant in the room that is personal greed would have been criticised.
So private companies make humans work harder?
They try harder when it results in their own benefit?
So who the fook pays?
The reality is, yes they do try harder, and get spoilt, but because of shareholder value maximisation it's 'everyone else' that's gets asset stripped.

Take a f u kin bow masters of the universe

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us which system you would favour dusty.

system?
You asking me to be the one that comes up with the ultimate solve all epiphany that billions of more erudite souls over thousands of years failed t do?
Or you asking on an ideology?
They simply shouldn't exist imo.
How can they when they are completely undermined in working life?

logic dictates that you solve each equation.
I addressed this one.
With respect, whats wrong with my logic?

If all you wanted to say is capitalism isn't perfect you took a heck of a long winded way of going about it.

I think we all know that, those honest entities who do ok and those who don't.
It took a fair deal to come to that conclusion.
Whether right or wrong is that really all you will use to criticise it with?
I dont preach nor do I feel the need for power, I suggest simply from how I see things.
I don't suggest Im completely right, but Id love you to show me one that is.

@dustybin
Why do you insist in littering your argument with stuff like I dont preach nor do I feel the need for power, I suggest simply from how I see things.
WTF are you getting at.

And what does this mean?
Yes that's what I'm suggesting. Why should it be that inherently a human is forced into labour (non political sort)?
Has capitalism become the press gang of humanity?
I heard rhetoric like 'there is not price for life' yet there clearly is since health car have budgets

@akabula.
Not sure I exactly 'littered' it, but I did indeed state it....once, that I dont feel the need to tell others.
That comes much from the likes of your return: if people establish on the non entity rather than the substance then it always looks like preaching.

And what does this mean?
Yes that's what I'm suggesting. Why should it be that inherently a human is forced into labour (non political sort)?
Has capitalism become the press gang of humanity?
I heard rhetoric like 'there is not price for life' yet there clearly is since health car have budgets

really?

How much help are you asking from me, dont take it out of context, just read it.

Was the point of the thread not about value?

There was me thinking national socialism in Germany became the Nazi party, re O.P. When was socialism a right wing ideology ?

Does Pandora ever reply to people in the posts he starts?  It's like he doesn't have the mental capacity to engage.

To be fair this guy once blamed the coalition when the BBC didn't show the final frame of a snooker match he was watching so I'm not sure what I'm expecting.

What happened to opinion on this thread?
Is absence tasset agreement?
I never expected it to be that easy.

If Pandora never replies to a thread he/she starts then surely the best fisherman ever?


spellingandgrammarchecker 06 Apr 15 16:45
Amazing how places Oxfam shops for one, can take on JSA people for free, but have no vacancies.

Spot on!

I alternate my "volunteering duties" between two charity shops, for which neither have vacancies, except a manager role paying £7.35ph (includes working weekends, plus many unpaid hrs)! The pressures and stress from management above sees more and more managers leaving their jobs than ever before...The flip side - sit on your @rse for your dole?

P.S. The IDS/job centre/work programme ethos is no matter how ill or disabled you are there is at least one job you can still do? They will not relent in their pursuit to get you working or signing off...

What was the op's question again?

Private enterprise wants a surplus in employment to pressure wages.
The private sector never employed anyone for the good of the community they employ them soley when they make more from their work than they have to pay them.

The richest private company in the world never invented a thing. Apple took the inventions funded mostly by the public sector and profited from them.
The infrastructure and networks that business grow within where built by the taxpayer.
The private sector is like the spoilt b4stard character out of viz. it wants everything it's own way and phuck the consequences.
Well look at the consequences of kowtowing to enterprise. Every fooker is in debt and most capitalist nations are broke with huge deficits with the family silver sold off to cliches.
Ironic that the biggest growth comes from the last vestiges of socialism.

Cliques

Apple never invented a thing?
I think you'll find most national debt is due to social programs or public service entitlements, the bankrupt cities in the US are generally all left wing strongholds like detroit. And most of the west is now far from capitalistic, they are nanny state politically correct positive discrimination panderers to the left.

meanwhile, Venezuela has achieved peak socialism, they've run out of toilet paper
http://gawker.com/venezuela-has-run-out-of-toilet-paper-507454510

not bad considering they have endless oil reserves to burn through

The overspend of public funds didn't just vanish.
They ended up in the pockets of the private companies who overcharged and under performed.

What have apple invented then?

I think you mistake invention for innovation.
Science invents whether implied or or general discoveries that then lead to opportunist companies that find uses for the inventions through manipulation and control.

There's going to be control at any outcome, but really should it be in the hands of people unashamedly looking after themselves first and 'crumbs falling from the table' as secondary issues?

From recollection, weren't the areas like Detroit heavily indebted to the car industry which was largely state subsidised?
The car is a big ticket item, second only to the home, most buy them on tick.
Just like in Greece that were suppled luxury items on promises of payment and speculation, when things start to topple the whole house of cards come down.

in 1960 detroit was the wealthiest per capita city in the US, then followed unions, welfare programs, government regulation, "positive" discrimination laws, and most importantly the 'progressive' left wing party.
meanwhile Venezuela still out of toilet paper, any suggestions? excuses?

Thats as much a story about living within ones means as it is a failed state funded privately listed set of corporations failing.
Ofc when you are nuts deep in the finacial sector who thrive on selling and repackaging other's debts then building sectors on the supply of such items will likely happen.
You won't hear me defend trade union thugs, its simply the other side of the human greed coin.
On Venezuela bog roll, its the first I've heard of it, but it seems something of an exceptionalist story to me.
Whether you struggle to wipe ones arse or live a whole life in servitude to those making more out of you than you do and lying about it then things are pretty desperate, but Im sure there will be something available to wipe their arses on.
We have our very own 'race to the bottom' going on over here with s hit filling every possible gap and a flooding of worthless tat, wasting resources and energy all to create vehicles to make a profit from and employ ppl......
Which brings back to the original question, why then don't we simply pay small amounts to those who don't wish to continue the facade?

Whether you struggle to wipe ones arse or live a whole life in servitude to those making more out of you than you do and lying about it then things are pretty desperate

Well no, a life of squalor, starvation, actual government oppression and no toilet paper is NOT the same as a relatively comfortable life where someone else has more than you. You're comparing bare survival vs mere envy.



why then don't we simply pay small amounts to those who don't wish to continue the facade?

socialism offers a similar proposition, a small amount to those willing to continue the facade (everyone else gets sent to the camps).

Whether you struggle to wipe ones arse or live a whole life in servitude to those making more out of you than you do and lying about it then things are pretty desperate

Well no, a life of squalor, starvation, actual government oppression and no toilet paper is NOT the same as a relatively comfortable life where someone else has more than you. You're comparing bare survival vs mere envy.



why then don't we simply pay small amounts to those who don't wish to continue the facade?

socialism offers a similar proposition, a small amount to those willing to continue the facade (everyone else gets sent to the camps).

over 40% of private company determinations to force work out of those that arguably shouldn't be forced to work were overturned at tribunal.

some cases resulted in death.

All done by a profit orientated company 'getting results' for the state employer.

Its just like Wells's Morlocks farming the Eloi by giving them what they believe they want, while literally sacrificing them because they are weak.

But its not about simply living a relatively comfortable life.
Its about a broken system that punishes those they can get away with punishing, forcing them to work for the profit of the few.
If debt was truly ethereal and never repaid or addressed it wouldn't be a problem, buy GDP is on the continued slide and we dangle on the precipice of deflation.
Debt is like a growing cancer that when attempting to fix means pain for the same people over and again.
Sure the few do live comfortable lives, very comfortable ones intact....but tell that to those that end up queuing for food at food banks or bossed around on zero hour contracts and continually humiliated by vindictive people who believe their interests always come first.

We tried this present way and the results are bad, but just like having a betting system where you only back favourites....it looks good for a while but ultimately collapses.
But the wealth strippers have long gone by the time anyone realises.

interesting that you bring up debt, after the crisis brought about by the community reinvestment act and its subsequent ramifications we now see obama pushing a new snake oil for the poor, student loans.

Are you in america polybot?
These are parochial aspects you refer to that Im not party to.

Although I will say this.
Here in England we went through the student loans 'fiasco' after promises that weren't kept and a whole move towards red brick universities churning out qualifications that nobody really wanted and indebting the youth in the process.
It was a Labour move attempting and successfully emulating tory ideology.

Labour wanted 50% of people to go to university, even if the degrees were worthless.  Sounds like "prizes for all" to me, and an attempt to move away from elitism.  How you equate that with Tory ideology is baffling.

Life in the 1950s and 60s.

When I was a boy all the dads down my road went to work, but not many mums did.

We managed.

No family had more than one car, and a lot had no car.

Nobody owned their house, we were all council tenants.

We had two weeks holiday a year, and we were lucky as my aunt lived in the Sussex countryside, so days  out were cheap.

All the kids in the road got xmas and birthday presents, but they weren't the equivalent of your dads wages for 3 months.

No kids went to university.

Most of us started full time work at 16, the rest at 17.

We got our first fridge when I was 10.

There were 18 maisonettes in our block, two 'rich families' had a phone.

Callers at the door were the rent man, the coalman, the milkman, who were paid in cash, and were never mugged. 

We were probably poor, but we didn't care because we were happy enough.

Java

But it was all to prove a delusion. The first 'New Labour' government, swept to power in May 1997 with a Commons majority of 179, was to prove very different from any previous Labour government. Indeed, in many ways - its belief in market forces and its commitment to globalisation, for example - it would be virtually indistinguishable from its Tory predecessor.

http://www.educationengland.org.uk/history/chapter10.html

the workshy just lack a competitive spirit .

not everyone cares about getting on ,that's evident in the school years

if EVERYONE was competitive life would be truly awful

...just reminds me of a funny time at school when i had a physics test - really couldn't be bothered ,didn't care and was  pretty rubbish at it anyway (like most subjects) -so simply put down any letter A-E in the Muti choice boxes and spent the rest of the test time in a daydream

somehow managed to still score somewhere around 35% (from memory) and didn't even come bottom   

"its belief in market forces and its commitment to globalisation, for example - it would be virtually indistinguishable from its Tory predecessor. "

Agreed.  Now what has that got to do with getting 50% of each generation to go to university and get limited degrees?

I was referring to the continued deregulation of sectors which is a tory ideology.
Old polytechnicis charging fees for s hitty degrees arguably helped nobody and indebted the individual

If you want deeper clarification;

The economy it's self is the major winner of having well educated individuals and so could be argued that should be state funded.
Passing the cost on to the individual and minimising state interference is indeed a tory ideology, in fact pre Blair the tories were indeed planning to do just that, just they lost the election.

So that answers your question as to how I came to such a conclusion.
Creating environments with watered down degrees and indebtedness doesnt exactly help those from less privileged backgrounds. They come out with naff degrees and struggle just as they would have without going, except now have the luxury of having to pay for the privileged once they start earning over a given salary, which is far from certain.

workcamps ? No.

but they should bring in compulsory National Service for the youts.

Talk to most of the lads in a workmen's club and they would say bring back work camps but they live alongside the shirkers unlike most of the Labour party handwringers.