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So nearly 2000 years ago a wrongly convicted criminal has to go up a hill, and a passer-by gets roped in to carry a big piece of wood called a cross ( or more likely a cross-piece, more on this ). When they get to the top the accompanying soldiers tie or nail him up and leave him to die.
What's my problem with this story as told on pictures called stations of the cross inside churches?
Have you ever tried to stick a massive stake in the ground, and secure it so firmly that it will not only take a man's weight ( even 100lb would be a lot ) and secure it so well that if he wriggles around it won't come out of the ground?It's an execution for really bad criminals after all. It's got to be well firm. You need a hole, and some cement ( which romans had ) and gravel for the base of this massive stake, and time for it to set. I've had a fence come down last month so know a bit about fence stakes now, you can't just shove one in, and bash the top with a mallet
There is no possible way the romans would have put a staking post in the ground on that day, it must have already been there. The romans were a practical nation and didn't carry pots of cement around digging a new hole every time there was a very naughty boy to deal with.
The obvious conclusion is that the post was already there and only the cross-piece was carried. Pictures like this (http://www.discountcatholicstore.com/images/Stationsfinal.jpg ) are effectively cartoons, have no resemblance to reality, and are an insult to the proud technologically advanced and generally civilised roman nation.
And if any modern romans want to break into churches and burn these pathetic cartoonish depictions of their activities, then they are fully justified imv.
What's my problem with this story as told on pictures called stations of the cross inside churches?
Have you ever tried to stick a massive stake in the ground, and secure it so firmly that it will not only take a man's weight ( even 100lb would be a lot ) and secure it so well that if he wriggles around it won't come out of the ground?It's an execution for really bad criminals after all. It's got to be well firm. You need a hole, and some cement ( which romans had ) and gravel for the base of this massive stake, and time for it to set. I've had a fence come down last month so know a bit about fence stakes now, you can't just shove one in, and bash the top with a mallet
There is no possible way the romans would have put a staking post in the ground on that day, it must have already been there. The romans were a practical nation and didn't carry pots of cement around digging a new hole every time there was a very naughty boy to deal with.
The obvious conclusion is that the post was already there and only the cross-piece was carried. Pictures like this (http://www.discountcatholicstore.com/images/Stationsfinal.jpg ) are effectively cartoons, have no resemblance to reality, and are an insult to the proud technologically advanced and generally civilised roman nation.
And if any modern romans want to break into churches and burn these pathetic cartoonish depictions of their activities, then they are fully justified imv.
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you could try an experiment here bongo
try crucifying your next door neighbour on your fence
test if it holds
try crucifying your next door neighbour on your fence
test if it holds
Not so. The cross that is dragged up the hill by the perpetrator fits snugly into the existing 'crucifixion hole' which has long been prepared and used many times in the past. This is why one geezer got let off...the other holes were all in use.
I suppose that they could have re-used old crosses but most preferred a nice new one. Well. you wouldn't want to be seen dead on a secondhand one, would you? It's not Ebay, you know!
Just my opinion, of course.
I suppose that they could have re-used old crosses but most preferred a nice new one. Well. you wouldn't want to be seen dead on a secondhand one, would you? It's not Ebay, you know!
Just my opinion, of course.
There seems to be some confusion anyway, I think Mathew says Simon the Cyrene carried his cross
an insult to the proud technologically advanced and generally civilised roman nation.
You think modern Romans should be proud of all the people they crucified?
an insult to the proud technologically advanced and generally civilised roman nation.
You think modern Romans should be proud of all the people they crucified?
Tell you what OP.... let's prove your theory practically.... we can nail you to a wooden cross and use wedges to secure the same in a pre-dug hole, preferably in the baking heat of a middle-eastern spring/summer, and leave you to it... we will be back in a few days to see how you are getting on.
... then we can go down the pub and have a good old chin wag and laugh about it.
... then we can go down the pub and have a good old chin wag and laugh about it.
Coordinator: Crucifixion?
Prisoner: Yes.
Coordinator: Good. Out of the door, line on the left, one cross each.
[Next prisoner]
Coordinator: Crucifixion?
Mr. Cheeky: Er, no, freedom actually.
Coordinator: What?
Mr. Cheeky: Yeah, they said I hadn't done anything and I could go and live on an island somewhere.
Coordinator: Oh I say, that's very nice. Well, off you go then.
Mr. Cheeky: No, I'm just pulling your leg, it's crucifixion really.
Coordinator: [laughing] Oh yes, very good. Well...
Mr. Cheeky: Yes I know, out of the door, one cross each, line on the left.
Prisoner: Yes.
Coordinator: Good. Out of the door, line on the left, one cross each.
[Next prisoner]
Coordinator: Crucifixion?
Mr. Cheeky: Er, no, freedom actually.
Coordinator: What?
Mr. Cheeky: Yeah, they said I hadn't done anything and I could go and live on an island somewhere.
Coordinator: Oh I say, that's very nice. Well, off you go then.
Mr. Cheeky: No, I'm just pulling your leg, it's crucifixion really.
Coordinator: [laughing] Oh yes, very good. Well...
Mr. Cheeky: Yes I know, out of the door, one cross each, line on the left.
I tried to crucify myself, but couldn't get the last nail in.
It was probably very well organised.
The Romans were incredible builders. Their legions could build anything on the move, part of their success.
I have to admit to admit this is first time I have ever seen anyone ask how they built their crosses for crucifixion.
The Romans were incredible builders. Their legions could build anything on the move, part of their success.
I have to admit to admit this is first time I have ever seen anyone ask how they built their crosses for crucifixion.
Out of all things you might question about the story of the big J man, the finer points of the JOINERY is the thing you take issue with? :)
Aren't there devout christians in some of the Latin countries who actually re-enact the crucifixion during festivals, surely if it works for them it'll have worked 2000 years ago, unless they use no more nails or something?
I wonder if Heysoos the carpenter exclaimed "Nice piece of wood this" as he was whistling on the cross...
@Clouseau - I've tried sitting on a fence post and shifting my weight around, and within a few minutes you can start leveraging it out, and that's with a concrete base.
@Just checking - yes, there are devotional crucifixions but these are not convicted criminals facing death who are going to wriggle around 7 feet off the ground.
If I and anyone else has a spare 100k they don't mind losing, then we could set up a challenge. Using maximum 300lbs of wood, make a cross, rope me up tight as you like, sink the post into naydam's pre-dug hole but no concrete allowed, and I'll have wrecked the set-up within an hour.
This stations of the cross story where Jesus carries a two-piece cross is such obvious bollockios and an insult to one of history's great empires.
@Just checking - yes, there are devotional crucifixions but these are not convicted criminals facing death who are going to wriggle around 7 feet off the ground.
If I and anyone else has a spare 100k they don't mind losing, then we could set up a challenge. Using maximum 300lbs of wood, make a cross, rope me up tight as you like, sink the post into naydam's pre-dug hole but no concrete allowed, and I'll have wrecked the set-up within an hour.
This stations of the cross story where Jesus carries a two-piece cross is such obvious bollockios and an insult to one of history's great empires.
Didn't the Romans nail or tie victims to real trees where available as it was a lot less bother than erecting crosses and there was little chance of them falling down under the loading?
Impaling was a better option as you only needed one piece of timber and they probably didn't wriggle around quite as much.
But bongo, the person on the cross will have been guarded.
At the very least to stop the people's front of Judea coming to save him.
They supposedly stuck a spear in him anyway, as they stood around smoking Marlboro.
Earth in the uk is pretty flexible. Earth in hot foreign countries can be like rock though, it's a different thing to deal with. And the thing about shaking it is wouldn't really be the mass of the cross, it would be the depth of the socket (assuming the cross hit the bottom), and how tight it was to get it going, if you can't get it going you're screwed.
Any weight of cross in a 1 ft hole is going to be far easier to move than any cross in a tight 3ft hole.
At the very least to stop the people's front of Judea coming to save him.
They supposedly stuck a spear in him anyway, as they stood around smoking Marlboro.
Earth in the uk is pretty flexible. Earth in hot foreign countries can be like rock though, it's a different thing to deal with. And the thing about shaking it is wouldn't really be the mass of the cross, it would be the depth of the socket (assuming the cross hit the bottom), and how tight it was to get it going, if you can't get it going you're screwed.
Any weight of cross in a 1 ft hole is going to be far easier to move than any cross in a tight 3ft hole.
But bongo, the person on the cross will have been guarded.
At the very least to stop the people's front of Judea coming to save him.
They supposedly stuck a spear in him anyway, as they stood around smoking Marlboro.
Earth in the uk is pretty flexible. Earth in hot foreign countries can be like rock though, it's a different thing to deal with. And the thing about shaking it is wouldn't really be the mass of the cross, it would be the depth of the socket (assuming the cross hit the bottom), and how tight it was to get it going, if you can't get it going you're screwed.
Any weight of cross in a 1 ft hole is going to be far easier to move than any cross in a tight 3ft hole.
At the very least to stop the people's front of Judea coming to save him.
They supposedly stuck a spear in him anyway, as they stood around smoking Marlboro.
Earth in the uk is pretty flexible. Earth in hot foreign countries can be like rock though, it's a different thing to deal with. And the thing about shaking it is wouldn't really be the mass of the cross, it would be the depth of the socket (assuming the cross hit the bottom), and how tight it was to get it going, if you can't get it going you're screwed.
Any weight of cross in a 1 ft hole is going to be far easier to move than any cross in a tight 3ft hole.
The day betfair introduces a "2 identical posts within about a second is obviously a mistake" filter can't come soon enough :)
I think Bongo's initial theory is correct. If you have ever tried picking up and carrying around a railway sleeper you would know that a full blown cross would be far too heavy for one man to lift let alone drag up a steep hill. The cross piece would be heavy enough for a fit young man, let alone one who had been scourged and was suffering from loss of blood.
It's worth mentioning you can get the thing rocking in two directions - forwards to backwards is the obvious one. Check a devotional crucifixion video and there's no chance of the wood holding unless it's a previously fixed stake with good depth.
Foinavon has it right - you can't hang your 10 stone from a tree and leverage it out.
Foinavon has it right - you can't hang your 10 stone from a tree and leverage it out.
Naydam did NOT state that there was no concrete. The post holes were almost certainly reinforced. I would suggest that they would probably be about 1 metre deep.
I am sure that I have seen depictions of victims being hauled into the erected position by a group of handlers using ropes etc to raise the cross into position. Quite a simple engineering principle. As the cross is hauled upright, it slides into the post hole.
Once in position, I wouldn't foresee too much action from the crossee. Not very easy to thrash about when you can only move your head!
I am sure that I have seen depictions of victims being hauled into the erected position by a group of handlers using ropes etc to raise the cross into position. Quite a simple engineering principle. As the cross is hauled upright, it slides into the post hole.
Once in position, I wouldn't foresee too much action from the crossee. Not very easy to thrash about when you can only move your head!
Bongo's idea isn't new though 
read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Carrying_the_Cross
But talking about weight you've swung me a bit Foinavon. I think you can knock up a cross that won't move quickly, but carrying say a 6x2"x10' post with a crossbar is going to be damned heavy. But you're dragging it, that takes a lot of the weight and a cross is actually a nice shape to carry? With heavy things it's the awkwardness that kills you and putting it on a shoulder is ideal.
read this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Carrying_the_Cross
But talking about weight you've swung me a bit Foinavon. I think you can knock up a cross that won't move quickly, but carrying say a 6x2"x10' post with a crossbar is going to be damned heavy. But you're dragging it, that takes a lot of the weight and a cross is actually a nice shape to carry? With heavy things it's the awkwardness that kills you and putting it on a shoulder is ideal.
Actually more I think about it, when you have an angled load the weight is predominantly on the lower end.
You could like carry/drag a 100kg plank but be putting most of the weight on the back, depending on the angle. No I'm back to thinking it's possible again.
You could like carry/drag a 100kg plank but be putting most of the weight on the back, depending on the angle. No I'm back to thinking it's possible again.
Anyone who has e.g. carried a load up stairs knows how the person at the top of the weight has an easy ride, with a cross and the bottom on the ground, the ground is taking the load. AND SIN. Halleluah etc ;)
I need a little more detail on the lining of your hole naydam, oo- errr.
1 metre of depth is good, but you can't create a hole by setting the pole in concrete, letting everything settle, then pulling your pole out.
1 metre of depth is good, but you can't create a hole by setting the pole in concrete, letting everything settle, then pulling your pole out.
People have been knocking bits of wood into the ground for 1000s of years, wooden piles were the foundations of buildings since forever, long before concrete was invented?
These are pre-existing, made-for-purpose post holes. Crucifixion is their only purpose. They were formed by shuttering. They have been used many times already.......and if you ask any more awkward questions, they'll be getting used again! 
Yes naydam, but what are these made-for-purpose holes lined with? ( rock, compacted soil, concrete??? )
Dear god I hope once this is resolved bongo doesn't start on the fine biological particulars of how supernatural offspring can resurect ;)
Bongo,seriously, I'm sure a builder from 0 AD wouldn't have a clue how to work a smartphone, but the pyramids were built 2000 years before that, believing they knew how to use wood and maybe stone isn't beyond belief :)
Bongo,seriously, I'm sure a builder from 0 AD wouldn't have a clue how to work a smartphone, but the pyramids were built 2000 years before that, believing they knew how to use wood and maybe stone isn't beyond belief :)
I mean Bongo, here's another thought. The romans as they travelled around would create temporary forts, and that was with wood, and they'd be driving the wood into the ground to create strong palisade walls.
They knew how to stick wood in the ground!
They knew how to stick wood in the ground!
JC - the ability of Romans to build stuff isn't in doubt here. They and their buckets of cement were excellent. It's the cartoon allegations of mainly the catholic church that the Romans were stupid that's being challenged.
The practicalities of having a pre-dug hole on a hill for executions and you drag 300lbs of wooden cross up and drop it in the slot, and it fits cos it didn't expand overnight or anything, and it fits without any wobble or play in the thing are ridiculous.
Carrying say a 50lb cross-piece, a ladder and some rope is practical.
The practicalities of having a pre-dug hole on a hill for executions and you drag 300lbs of wooden cross up and drop it in the slot, and it fits cos it didn't expand overnight or anything, and it fits without any wobble or play in the thing are ridiculous.
Carrying say a 50lb cross-piece, a ladder and some rope is practical.
It's the cartoon allegations of mainly the catholic church that the Romans were stupid that's being challenged.
What?
We are all aware the romans were vicious psychopaths, the nazi germans of their time if you like, but where have you seen (or imagined) these cartoonish depictions?
What?
We are all aware the romans were vicious psychopaths, the nazi germans of their time if you like, but where have you seen (or imagined) these cartoonish depictions?
It makes sense to have the apparatus of execution pre-installed at execution sites, it was certainly the case when we had public hangings in Britain. Open holes in the ground would be vulnerable to vandals dropping rocks down them and then what do you do if you have your cross and nowhere to erect it?
"but where have you seen (or imagined) these cartoonish depictions?"
I'm guessing Bongo might have had a catholic upbringing which is why this bothers him.
Protestant churches tend not to have much art, Catholic churches tend to be completely covered in it and "the stations of the cross" showing picures of the original beardy trend setter with some serious wood is very common.
I'm guessing Bongo might have had a catholic upbringing which is why this bothers him.
Protestant churches tend not to have much art, Catholic churches tend to be completely covered in it and "the stations of the cross" showing picures of the original beardy trend setter with some serious wood is very common.
Bongo. FFS! Think about it. You don't erect the cross first. You nail and lash the offender whilst the cross is flat on the ground. Then, with the foot of the cross placed against an abutment it is hauled upright by a gang of fellas assisted by some more shoving. Ropes are attached to the arms of the cross to help maintain alignment. Then, as the cross nears verticality it slides into the precast concrete hole.
There is absolutely NO requirement for perfect verticality here. If so desired, one could simply drive in a couple of wedges. Personally, I think a cross which is about five degrees off axis looks best.
And as for working it loose...I would be interested to know exactly HOW one would accomplish that! This is not the same as pushing and pulling on a bloody fencepost...unless, of course, bad guys weren't so clever then!
There is absolutely NO requirement for perfect verticality here. If so desired, one could simply drive in a couple of wedges. Personally, I think a cross which is about five degrees off axis looks best.
And as for working it loose...I would be interested to know exactly HOW one would accomplish that! This is not the same as pushing and pulling on a bloody fencepost...unless, of course, bad guys weren't so clever then!
It's the cartoon allegations of mainly the catholic church that the Romans were stupid that's being challenged.
well you do not know this for sure Bongo?
The only way to know this is to find documented evidence from the period
or
reconstruction
Historians have found out a lot this way, but I never seen a program reconstructing crucifixion
I am not sure I ever will
Still somebody might some day?
well you do not know this for sure Bongo?
The only way to know this is to find documented evidence from the period
or
reconstruction
Historians have found out a lot this way, but I never seen a program reconstructing crucifixion
I am not sure I ever will
Still somebody might some day?
The only rule fro reconstruction is only materials or knowledge at the time must be used
My dad used to see men in German uniforms nailed to trees when he was fighting Tito's partisans in Yugoslavia. Nobody's faffed around with building crosses. The cross in a crucifixion surely just refers to the shape the body assumes. Christians adopted Christ's shape in death as a symbol and presumably from there came up with the idea of nailing Him to that shape and all the myths that go with it.
Not visible enough, just nailed to any old tree. It is supposed to serve as a deterrent. Hence the theatre and drama of the events. That's why the victims would be displayed in a prominent location.
A bit like leaving an impaled person in open view or the head on a spike at the city gates. It says "Behave yourself or this could be YOU".
A bit like leaving an impaled person in open view or the head on a spike at the city gates. It says "Behave yourself or this could be YOU".
no need for gallows to hang people ,but they were still built and used
The practicalities of having a pre-dug hole on a hill for executions and you drag 300lbs of wooden cross up and drop it in the slot, and it fits cos it didn't expand overnight or anything, and it fits without any wobble or play in the thing are ridiculous.
Haven’t read all this, but about holes in the ground and concrete. You don’t need concrete, you simply dig the hole as small (to the diameter if the post) as possible then you put the soil back in a little at a time and tamp it hard. I’ve not done any crucifixions, but I’ve dug telegraph poles in with bird boxes on them with no concrete, such that you could put a ladder up and a man climb up to the box. Providing the ground’s not sodden to start with, they stay stiff and if it is chalk or sand they are unmoveable. This is also the case when you dig fence straining posts in a little over a metre deep in the countryside. No one uses concrete. When you strain the netting up the force is incredible (you can do several hundred metres pulling it with a tractor) and yet the post doesn’t go anywhere (admittedly there's a strut also, maybe the Romans used them?) – all with just what you’ve dug out holding it up.
Haven’t read all this, but about holes in the ground and concrete. You don’t need concrete, you simply dig the hole as small (to the diameter if the post) as possible then you put the soil back in a little at a time and tamp it hard. I’ve not done any crucifixions, but I’ve dug telegraph poles in with bird boxes on them with no concrete, such that you could put a ladder up and a man climb up to the box. Providing the ground’s not sodden to start with, they stay stiff and if it is chalk or sand they are unmoveable. This is also the case when you dig fence straining posts in a little over a metre deep in the countryside. No one uses concrete. When you strain the netting up the force is incredible (you can do several hundred metres pulling it with a tractor) and yet the post doesn’t go anywhere (admittedly there's a strut also, maybe the Romans used them?) – all with just what you’ve dug out holding it up.
On Discovery Channel now. Biblical Conspiracies dealing with how Jesus would have been crucified.
Starts at 10pm on Discovery+1.
Might throw some light on the matter.
Starts at 10pm on Discovery+1.
Might throw some light on the matter.
..I don't have it
it is far from proved on this thread
be interesting
it is far from proved on this thread
be interesting
I can't watch that it's not in HD. I've taped it tomorrow..
guinness2dear 21 Feb 15 23:56
I wonder if Heysoos the carpenter exclaimed "Nice piece of wood this" as he was whistling on the cross...
I believe his words were 'FFS.. what a way to spend Easter.'
I wonder if Heysoos the carpenter exclaimed "Nice piece of wood this" as he was whistling on the cross...
I believe his words were 'FFS.. what a way to spend Easter.'
As he looked out over the hills from his cross, Jesus saw Paul, and called to him.
Paul tried to get past the guards but was attacked with a sword and lost half of an arm.
Jesus called him again...
Paul struggled with the guards saying 'Let me speak to my Lord, he beckons me.'
A guard hacked off the bottom half of one of his legs and threw him down the hill.
Jesus called him again...
Bleeding profusely, but wanting to hear what wisdom his Master had to impart, he tried again, only to lose his other arm to the swift stroke of a sword.
Jesus called him again...
He hobbled forward, but no sooner had he got to within 10 feet of his Lord, he lost the bottom half of his other leg, and unable to keep his balance he was rolled down the hill by the laughing guards.
Jesus called him again...
On bloody stumps, Paul wobbled back up the hill and begged the guards to let him through to hear his Masters final words before he bled to death.
The guards relented and let him pass.
'Oh Master' said Paul 'what final words do you have before we both die and enter the kingdom of heaven?'
Jesus looked down at Paul, smiled gently, and said 'I can see your house from up here.'
Paul tried to get past the guards but was attacked with a sword and lost half of an arm.
Jesus called him again...
Paul struggled with the guards saying 'Let me speak to my Lord, he beckons me.'
A guard hacked off the bottom half of one of his legs and threw him down the hill.
Jesus called him again...
Bleeding profusely, but wanting to hear what wisdom his Master had to impart, he tried again, only to lose his other arm to the swift stroke of a sword.
Jesus called him again...
He hobbled forward, but no sooner had he got to within 10 feet of his Lord, he lost the bottom half of his other leg, and unable to keep his balance he was rolled down the hill by the laughing guards.
Jesus called him again...
On bloody stumps, Paul wobbled back up the hill and begged the guards to let him through to hear his Masters final words before he bled to death.
The guards relented and let him pass.
'Oh Master' said Paul 'what final words do you have before we both die and enter the kingdom of heaven?'
Jesus looked down at Paul, smiled gently, and said 'I can see your house from up here.'
The power of google and a bit more information surfaces:
The bible uses greek words stauros ( upright pale or stake ) and occasionally xylon ( tree ) to describe what Jesus was strung up on. None of these describe what is shown in the bullsheet stations of the cross as painted up by mainly catholic cartoonists on their walls of worship.
The details in these stations of the cross also show the cross-section of the wood - it's a fecking BEAM with a rectangular cross-section, and in 30 AD it's possible to mill these from a tree but it is blooming hard work for the joiner. The first mechanical saw-mills appeared about 200 years later ( .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierapolis_sawmill is the earliest known ). So about 100 years after that when the roman emperor converts to Christianity beams are presumably much more common and easy to make.
As FlowerMyth suggests a telegraph pole ( circular cross-section ) is a lot less likely to wobble, but the ground still needs compacting as you fill ( we have machines for compacting and many how-tos suggest to still leave it a day to settle ). It's still a lot of hard work to do something like this on the day.
The catholic depiction that romans would crucify criminals using a beam with a rough 3 by 1 cross-section is bonkers.
The bible uses greek words stauros ( upright pale or stake ) and occasionally xylon ( tree ) to describe what Jesus was strung up on. None of these describe what is shown in the bullsheet stations of the cross as painted up by mainly catholic cartoonists on their walls of worship.
The details in these stations of the cross also show the cross-section of the wood - it's a fecking BEAM with a rectangular cross-section, and in 30 AD it's possible to mill these from a tree but it is blooming hard work for the joiner. The first mechanical saw-mills appeared about 200 years later ( .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierapolis_sawmill is the earliest known ). So about 100 years after that when the roman emperor converts to Christianity beams are presumably much more common and easy to make.
As FlowerMyth suggests a telegraph pole ( circular cross-section ) is a lot less likely to wobble, but the ground still needs compacting as you fill ( we have machines for compacting and many how-tos suggest to still leave it a day to settle ). It's still a lot of hard work to do something like this on the day.
The catholic depiction that romans would crucify criminals using a beam with a rough 3 by 1 cross-section is bonkers.
According to that programme, Heysoos was crucified on a X (still whistling obviously)
You can't be having your saviour nailed up on any old piece of wood. Even if they did depict it thus, you would still be moaning about have the knots in the wrong place! It is a generic piece of wood that may well have been hewn for him as a mark of friendship, respect or devotion. Perhaps somebody paid for it to be better class than the normal run-of-the-mill cross. Perhaps he even said "Arise, lowly stave, and bear the son of thy God with pride".
I think it is more about depicting the idea of crucifixion than a detailed model of the piece of wood used in the event.
I think it is more about depicting the idea of crucifixion than a detailed model of the piece of wood used in the event.
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