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So nearly 2000 years ago a wrongly convicted criminal has to go up a hill, and a passer-by gets roped in to carry a big piece of wood called a cross ( or more likely a cross-piece, more on this ). When they get to the top the accompanying soldiers tie or nail him up and leave him to die.
What's my problem with this story as told on pictures called stations of the cross inside churches?
Have you ever tried to stick a massive stake in the ground, and secure it so firmly that it will not only take a man's weight ( even 100lb would be a lot ) and secure it so well that if he wriggles around it won't come out of the ground?It's an execution for really bad criminals after all. It's got to be well firm. You need a hole, and some cement ( which romans had ) and gravel for the base of this massive stake, and time for it to set. I've had a fence come down last month so know a bit about fence stakes now, you can't just shove one in, and bash the top with a mallet
There is no possible way the romans would have put a staking post in the ground on that day, it must have already been there. The romans were a practical nation and didn't carry pots of cement around digging a new hole every time there was a very naughty boy to deal with.
The obvious conclusion is that the post was already there and only the cross-piece was carried. Pictures like this (http://www.discountcatholicstore.com/images/Stationsfinal.jpg ) are effectively cartoons, have no resemblance to reality, and are an insult to the proud technologically advanced and generally civilised roman nation.
And if any modern romans want to break into churches and burn these pathetic cartoonish depictions of their activities, then they are fully justified imv.
What's my problem with this story as told on pictures called stations of the cross inside churches?
Have you ever tried to stick a massive stake in the ground, and secure it so firmly that it will not only take a man's weight ( even 100lb would be a lot ) and secure it so well that if he wriggles around it won't come out of the ground?It's an execution for really bad criminals after all. It's got to be well firm. You need a hole, and some cement ( which romans had ) and gravel for the base of this massive stake, and time for it to set. I've had a fence come down last month so know a bit about fence stakes now, you can't just shove one in, and bash the top with a mallet
There is no possible way the romans would have put a staking post in the ground on that day, it must have already been there. The romans were a practical nation and didn't carry pots of cement around digging a new hole every time there was a very naughty boy to deal with.
The obvious conclusion is that the post was already there and only the cross-piece was carried. Pictures like this (http://www.discountcatholicstore.com/images/Stationsfinal.jpg ) are effectively cartoons, have no resemblance to reality, and are an insult to the proud technologically advanced and generally civilised roman nation.
And if any modern romans want to break into churches and burn these pathetic cartoonish depictions of their activities, then they are fully justified imv.
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I hope you copy & pasted that lot
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you could try an experiment here bongo
try crucifying your next door neighbour on your fence test if it holds |
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Not so. The cross that is dragged up the hill by the perpetrator fits snugly into the existing 'crucifixion hole' which has long been prepared and used many times in the past. This is why one geezer got let off...the other holes were all in use.
I suppose that they could have re-used old crosses but most preferred a nice new one. Well. you wouldn't want to be seen dead on a secondhand one, would you? It's not Ebay, you know! Just my opinion, of course. |
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There seems to be some confusion anyway, I think Mathew says Simon the Cyrene carried his cross
an insult to the proud technologically advanced and generally civilised roman nation. You think modern Romans should be proud of all the people they crucified? |
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Tell you what OP.... let's prove your theory practically.... we can nail you to a wooden cross and use wedges to secure the same in a pre-dug hole, preferably in the baking heat of a middle-eastern spring/summer, and leave you to it... we will be back in a few days to see how you are getting on.
... then we can go down the pub and have a good old chin wag and laugh about it. |
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Coordinator: Crucifixion?
Prisoner: Yes. Coordinator: Good. Out of the door, line on the left, one cross each. [Next prisoner] Coordinator: Crucifixion? Mr. Cheeky: Er, no, freedom actually. Coordinator: What? Mr. Cheeky: Yeah, they said I hadn't done anything and I could go and live on an island somewhere. Coordinator: Oh I say, that's very nice. Well, off you go then. Mr. Cheeky: No, I'm just pulling your leg, it's crucifixion really. Coordinator: [laughing] Oh yes, very good. Well... Mr. Cheeky: Yes I know, out of the door, one cross each, line on the left. |
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I tried to crucify myself, but couldn't get the last nail in.
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It was probably very well organised.
The Romans were incredible builders. Their legions could build anything on the move, part of their success. I have to admit to admit this is first time I have ever seen anyone ask how they built their crosses for crucifixion.  |
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Out of all things you might question about the story of the big J man, the finer points of the JOINERY is the thing you take issue with? :)
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Aren't there devout christians in some of the Latin countries who actually re-enact the crucifixion during festivals, surely if it works for them it'll have worked 2000 years ago, unless they use no more nails or something?
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cmat was crucified but rose again
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English rose again Shirley
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I wonder if Heysoos the carpenter exclaimed "Nice piece of wood this" as he was whistling on the cross...
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@Clouseau - I've tried sitting on a fence post and shifting my weight around, and within a few minutes you can start leveraging it out, and that's with a concrete base.
@Just checking - yes, there are devotional crucifixions but these are not convicted criminals facing death who are going to wriggle around 7 feet off the ground. If I and anyone else has a spare 100k they don't mind losing, then we could set up a challenge. Using maximum 300lbs of wood, make a cross, rope me up tight as you like, sink the post into naydam's pre-dug hole but no concrete allowed, and I'll have wrecked the set-up within an hour. This stations of the cross story where Jesus carries a two-piece cross is such obvious bollockios and an insult to one of history's great empires. |
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Didn't the Romans nail or tie victims to real trees where available as it was a lot less bother than erecting crosses and there was little chance of them falling down under the loading?
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Impaling was a better option as you only needed one piece of timber and they probably didn't wriggle around quite as much.
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But bongo, the person on the cross will have been guarded.
At the very least to stop the people's front of Judea coming to save him. They supposedly stuck a spear in him anyway, as they stood around smoking Marlboro. Earth in the uk is pretty flexible. Earth in hot foreign countries can be like rock though, it's a different thing to deal with. And the thing about shaking it is wouldn't really be the mass of the cross, it would be the depth of the socket (assuming the cross hit the bottom), and how tight it was to get it going, if you can't get it going you're screwed. Any weight of cross in a 1 ft hole is going to be far easier to move than any cross in a tight 3ft hole. |
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But bongo, the person on the cross will have been guarded.
At the very least to stop the people's front of Judea coming to save him. They supposedly stuck a spear in him anyway, as they stood around smoking Marlboro. Earth in the uk is pretty flexible. Earth in hot foreign countries can be like rock though, it's a different thing to deal with. And the thing about shaking it is wouldn't really be the mass of the cross, it would be the depth of the socket (assuming the cross hit the bottom), and how tight it was to get it going, if you can't get it going you're screwed. Any weight of cross in a 1 ft hole is going to be far easier to move than any cross in a tight 3ft hole. |
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The day betfair introduces a "2 identical posts within about a second is obviously a mistake" filter can't come soon enough :)
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Risen
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Rasen
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sultana
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I think Bongo's initial theory is correct. If you have ever tried picking up and carrying around a railway sleeper you would know that a full blown cross would be far too heavy for one man to lift let alone drag up a steep hill. The cross piece would be heavy enough for a fit young man, let alone one who had been scourged and was suffering from loss of blood.
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It's worth mentioning you can get the thing rocking in two directions - forwards to backwards is the obvious one. Check a devotional crucifixion video and there's no chance of the wood holding unless it's a previously fixed stake with good depth.
Foinavon has it right - you can't hang your 10 stone from a tree and leverage it out. |
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Naydam did NOT state that there was no concrete. The post holes were almost certainly reinforced. I would suggest that they would probably be about 1 metre deep.
I am sure that I have seen depictions of victims being hauled into the erected position by a group of handlers using ropes etc to raise the cross into position. Quite a simple engineering principle. As the cross is hauled upright, it slides into the post hole. Once in position, I wouldn't foresee too much action from the crossee. Not very easy to thrash about when you can only move your head!  |
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give a little whistle
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Bongo's idea isn't new though
 read this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Carrying_the_Cross But talking about weight you've swung me a bit Foinavon. I think you can knock up a cross that won't move quickly, but carrying say a 6x2"x10' post with a crossbar is going to be damned heavy. But you're dragging it, that takes a lot of the weight and a cross is actually a nice shape to carry? With heavy things it's the awkwardness that kills you and putting it on a shoulder is ideal. |
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Handy for resting, too.
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two bags o shopping a doddle
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Actually more I think about it, when you have an angled load the weight is predominantly on the lower end.
You could like carry/drag a 100kg plank but be putting most of the weight on the back, depending on the angle. No I'm back to thinking it's possible again. |
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Anyone who has e.g. carried a load up stairs knows how the person at the top of the weight has an easy ride, with a cross and the bottom on the ground, the ground is taking the load. AND SIN. Halleluah etc ;)
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I need a little more detail on the lining of your hole naydam, oo- errr.
1 metre of depth is good, but you can't create a hole by setting the pole in concrete, letting everything settle, then pulling your pole out. |
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People have been knocking bits of wood into the ground for 1000s of years, wooden piles were the foundations of buildings since forever, long before concrete was invented?
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These are pre-existing, made-for-purpose post holes. Crucifixion is their only purpose. They were formed by shuttering. They have been used many times already.......and if you ask any more awkward questions, they'll be getting used again!
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You don't 'knock 'em in'. They are erected.
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Yes naydam, but what are these made-for-purpose holes lined with? ( rock, compacted soil, concrete??? )
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Dear god I hope once this is resolved bongo doesn't start on the fine biological particulars of how supernatural offspring can resurect ;)
Bongo,seriously, I'm sure a builder from 0 AD wouldn't have a clue how to work a smartphone, but the pyramids were built 2000 years before that, believing they knew how to use wood and maybe stone isn't beyond belief :) |
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I mean Bongo, here's another thought. The romans as they travelled around would create temporary forts, and that was with wood, and they'd be driving the wood into the ground to create strong palisade walls.
They knew how to stick wood in the ground!  |
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Totti and terry
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