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We seem to bend over backwards to accommodate everyone's religious sensibilities in this country, but all we get in return is conflict, violence, hatred and intolerance. We have policemen standing idle whilst hate preachers spout their bile in our streets. Our spineless politicians refuse to criticise even the most abhorrent interpretations of any faith for fear of causing upset and losing votes. Instead we talk about this myth of the wonderful benefits that so-called "multi-culturalism" has brought, despite all the most patently clear evidence pointing to the fact that the religious division inherent in such a system, provides nothing other than a platform for unrest and intolerance.
Last nights, BBC news led with a story about how the Home Secretary was taking steps to "redouble the efforts" in securing Jewish people's safety concerns in the UK, despite there being no evidence whatsoever of any anti-Jewish activity at present. This was followed by something about multicultural Britain and the role of the Muslims in encouraging better integration. Then there was some coverage of the Pope's visit to the Philippines and six million brain washed citizens standing around in the rain to catch a glimpse of the head of a religious cult that preaches helping the poor despite possessing the sort of obscene wealth that would make a Russian oligarch blush, not to mention the horrendous history of covering up the very worst sort of paedophilia amongst it ranks.
All we hear about seemingly is religion and it's various forms, never with a word of criticism for the significant minority within each one, whose first resort is division and violence. Surely it would be better if we marginalised religion as much as possible. No religious programmes on telly (even Song of Praise), no religion in schools, no religion in politics. Let's have fewer Christian community centres, Jewish community centres, Muslim community centres, etc. Let's just have a single community centre for everyone.
I doubt I'm the only one who is sick of hearing about religion all the time, but has never seen much positive side to it all. Time to move into the 21st century and cast this pernicious and anachronistic cult worship into the annals of history.
Last nights, BBC news led with a story about how the Home Secretary was taking steps to "redouble the efforts" in securing Jewish people's safety concerns in the UK, despite there being no evidence whatsoever of any anti-Jewish activity at present. This was followed by something about multicultural Britain and the role of the Muslims in encouraging better integration. Then there was some coverage of the Pope's visit to the Philippines and six million brain washed citizens standing around in the rain to catch a glimpse of the head of a religious cult that preaches helping the poor despite possessing the sort of obscene wealth that would make a Russian oligarch blush, not to mention the horrendous history of covering up the very worst sort of paedophilia amongst it ranks.
All we hear about seemingly is religion and it's various forms, never with a word of criticism for the significant minority within each one, whose first resort is division and violence. Surely it would be better if we marginalised religion as much as possible. No religious programmes on telly (even Song of Praise), no religion in schools, no religion in politics. Let's have fewer Christian community centres, Jewish community centres, Muslim community centres, etc. Let's just have a single community centre for everyone.
I doubt I'm the only one who is sick of hearing about religion all the time, but has never seen much positive side to it all. Time to move into the 21st century and cast this pernicious and anachronistic cult worship into the annals of history.
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I think the dictatorship needed to implement what you want would be far worse. Our current problems are only caused by one religion, everyone else seems to get along just fine.
You may not be the only one who has these views about religion but you are a long way from being in a majority.
You may not be the only one who has these views about religion but you are a long way from being in a majority.
He might not be in a mjority, but he is absolutely spot-on.
I fail to see why I should kowtow to the lunatic beliefs of the brain-washed, in fact they should be openly mocked and humiliated until they realise exactly how stupid they have been.
I fail to see why I should kowtow to the lunatic beliefs of the brain-washed, in fact they should be openly mocked and humiliated until they realise exactly how stupid they have been.
The world is too tolerant towards religion imo. For a group of people whose philosophy is seeming based on love, forgiveness and all that stuff they seem to cause a disproportionate amount of grief.
Nobody is asking anyone to "kowtow" to their beliefs but suggesting you openly mock and humiliate others because of their religious views is pretty unpleasant stuff though typical of people who always think they know best.
We seem to bend over backwards to accommodate everyone's religious sensibilities in this country, but all we get in return is conflict, violence, hatred and intolerance. We have policemen standing idle whilst hate preachers spout their bile in our streets. Our spineless politicians refuse to criticise even the most abhorrent interpretations of any faith for fear of causing upset and losing votes. Instead we talk about this myth of the wonderful benefits that so-called "multi-culturalism" has brought, despite all the most patently clear evidence pointing to the fact that the religious division inherent in such a system, provides nothing other than a platform for unrest and intolerance.
Last nights, BBC news led with a story about how the Home Secretary was taking steps to "redouble the efforts" in securing Jewish people's safety concerns in the UK, despite there being no evidence whatsoever of any anti-Jewish activity at present. This was followed by something about multicultural Britain and the role of the Muslims in encouraging better integration. Then there was some coverage of the Pope's visit to the Philippines and six million brain washed citizens standing around in the rain to catch a glimpse of the head of a religious cult that preaches helping the poor despite possessing the sort of obscene wealth that would make a Russian oligarch blush, not to mention the horrendous history of covering up the very worst sort of paedophilia amongst it ranks.
All we hear about seemingly is religion and it's various forms, never with a word of criticism for the significant minority within each one, whose first resort is division and violence. Surely it would be better if we marginalised religion as much as possible. No religious programmes on telly (even Song of Praise), no religion in schools, no religion in politics. Let's have fewer Christian community centres, Jewish community centres, Muslim community centres, etc. Let's just have a single community centre for everyone.
I doubt I'm the only one who is sick of hearing about religion all the time, but has never seen much positive side to it all. Time to move into the 21st century and cast this pernicious and anachronistic cult worship into the annals of history.
Amen to that.
Last nights, BBC news led with a story about how the Home Secretary was taking steps to "redouble the efforts" in securing Jewish people's safety concerns in the UK, despite there being no evidence whatsoever of any anti-Jewish activity at present. This was followed by something about multicultural Britain and the role of the Muslims in encouraging better integration. Then there was some coverage of the Pope's visit to the Philippines and six million brain washed citizens standing around in the rain to catch a glimpse of the head of a religious cult that preaches helping the poor despite possessing the sort of obscene wealth that would make a Russian oligarch blush, not to mention the horrendous history of covering up the very worst sort of paedophilia amongst it ranks.
All we hear about seemingly is religion and it's various forms, never with a word of criticism for the significant minority within each one, whose first resort is division and violence. Surely it would be better if we marginalised religion as much as possible. No religious programmes on telly (even Song of Praise), no religion in schools, no religion in politics. Let's have fewer Christian community centres, Jewish community centres, Muslim community centres, etc. Let's just have a single community centre for everyone.
I doubt I'm the only one who is sick of hearing about religion all the time, but has never seen much positive side to it all. Time to move into the 21st century and cast this pernicious and anachronistic cult worship into the annals of history.
Amen to that.
The fact is that these people demand respect for views which are foolish in the extreme. They deserve to be mocked and humiliated because they are complete morons.
And, what's more, I am being asked to kowtow to people's medieval beliefs. Under pain of death, in some cases.
Certainly does seems bizarre that some morons hold the belief that people are not humans with human dignity but 'kaffirs' simply for not following their stone age religion.
I remember some fella going on about imagine if there was no religion. I think he got shot to death soon after.
What is even more bizarre Sultan is not only that we have to bend over backwards so as not to upset these medievalists, but that public money is spent on inculcating their lunatic notions in our children.
quite so. By the way, since the current trend is taking offence, I have now decided to take great offence at the label "kuffar". Who do I need to write to to have it categorised under "hate speech"?
Doesn't matter to whom you write, the law clearly states that 'hate speech' can not be uttered by Imams, and nor can black people be guilty of racism.
I take it that we are discussing The Pope? Or maybe the Archbishop of Canterbury. Or maybe the Ayatollah?
Personally, I think you are discussing ALL of them, to a greater or lesser degree.
Personally, I think you are discussing ALL of them, to a greater or lesser degree.
I should make it clear naydam that I am discussing all of them - the believers are all stupid and gullible, and their so-called holy men anything but.
They're all nutters. It s fine when you want to be nutters in your own little world. Trouble is when you start messing with kids blowing people up and forcing your nutty ideas on the rest of society then there is a problem
Hmmm. I think the problem is that the 'Holy Men' all know that it's nonsense. But that would mean telling all their gang that there isn't anything to follow after you die...and even if there is, killing yourself to get there is instant disqualification!
MY God says that you should live a long and peaceful life being kind and helpful to all that you meet. You may not get another life but at least you won't have wasted this one.
MY God says that you should live a long and peaceful life being kind and helpful to all that you meet. You may not get another life but at least you won't have wasted this one.
It seems to me most religions preach intolerance, yet we have to be tolerant to their intolerance...
YOUR God would appear to be a kind and benevolent God then naydam. There are not many of them about.
A lot of sense on this thread. The lunatics have been running the asylum for far too long.
The trouble is there are too many rules in religion. I believe in God but not in religion. 
jed.davison
What is even more bizarre Sultan is not only that we have to bend over backwards so as not to upset these medievalists, but that public money is spent on inculcating their lunatic notions in our children.
To be fair some of them only ask you to bend over.
What is even more bizarre Sultan is not only that we have to bend over backwards so as not to upset these medievalists, but that public money is spent on inculcating their lunatic notions in our children.
To be fair some of them only ask you to bend over.
I sympathise with the mother here, the non-attender's father could have contacted her, and didn't bother. Such rudeness and lack of consideration may be par for the course these days, but it remains rudeness.
and
I fail to see why I should kowtow to the lunatic beliefs of the brain-washed, in fact they should be openly mocked and humiliated until they realise exactly how stupid they have been.
Is this the same 'voice of reason' Jed in both topics?
and
I fail to see why I should kowtow to the lunatic beliefs of the brain-washed, in fact they should be openly mocked and humiliated until they realise exactly how stupid they have been.
Is this the same 'voice of reason' Jed in both topics?
Look at the wealth that religions have, it's obscene. The cathedrals, churches and chapels that cost fortunes to build and maintain.
And all filled with artefacts that cost fortunes. Helping the poor my erse, helping themselves.
Nice wage, free house for life and free entry to the fitba. that last one really gets me.
And all filled with artefacts that cost fortunes. Helping the poor my erse, helping themselves.
Nice wage, free house for life and free entry to the fitba. that last one really gets me.
Plenty of good replies to a very good OP here.
Ihave always been of the view that this was a much tighter-knit and caring society as long as it was Christian and held those values, pre and post war years were an example.
Last 35 years have seen buisness and the lawyer along with the bank run our society without the caring nature of Christianity, multi-culturism was excessively introduced for the cheap labour and now we see many divided cities in our land.
Greed is the new faith.
Ihave always been of the view that this was a much tighter-knit and caring society as long as it was Christian and held those values, pre and post war years were an example.
Last 35 years have seen buisness and the lawyer along with the bank run our society without the caring nature of Christianity, multi-culturism was excessively introduced for the cheap labour and now we see many divided cities in our land.
Greed is the new faith.
the religion of islam cannot have any money because I can remember that Burton council was forever giving them grants. They got £40k for a new roof for the mosque (formerly a C of E school which the council gave them for £1) back in 2002 and it still hasn't been done.
quite so. By the way, since the current trend is taking offence, I have now decided to take great offence at the label "kuffar". Who do I need to write to to have it categorised under "hate speech"?
While you're at it can you add Infidel to that. It is always used in an aggressive and derogatory way.
I know its literal meaning is "non believer" but then the literal meaning of P*** is someone from Pakistan (like aussie), but it always seems to be very frowned upon.
While you're at it can you add Infidel to that. It is always used in an aggressive and derogatory way.
I know its literal meaning is "non believer" but then the literal meaning of P*** is someone from Pakistan (like aussie), but it always seems to be very frowned upon.
What's the problem paulypaul?
I've never claimed to be the voice of reason, but I'm quite happy to argue my case on any subject - I think that's why they put the forums on here in the first place.
I've never claimed to be the voice of reason, but I'm quite happy to argue my case on any subject - I think that's why they put the forums on here in the first place.
No problem Jed...
Just seemed a but harsh the second comment IMO following one about manners!
My 'voice of reason' comment was sarcastic, my apologies.
Pauly
Just seemed a but harsh the second comment IMO following one about manners!
My 'voice of reason' comment was sarcastic, my apologies.
Pauly
Its difficult when as a non believer you see people bowing and scraping,killing and fighting over what seem to be trifles.They have rules about what clothes they should wear ,how many times a day they should pray.They have iconic but usually dead figures who they revere and you think what the fck is this all about. They have books and scrolls written thousands of years ago that they insist contain words of wisdom and that are instructions for living in the present.
They lay claim to a life everlasting that really seems to be over optimistic or even insane.
Are we too tolerant? Pretending to accept idiocy as normal is perhaps a trifle too tolerant.
They lay claim to a life everlasting that really seems to be over optimistic or even insane.
Are we too tolerant? Pretending to accept idiocy as normal is perhaps a trifle too tolerant.
I think the word 'religion' and the names of all of the individual religions eg. Christianity, Islam etc. should be declared Politically Incorrect.
We don't need books to tell us what is right and what is not. Treat everybody else like you would like them to treat you. Simplpe.
We don't need books to tell us what is right and what is not. Treat everybody else like you would like them to treat you. Simplpe.
"Let's have fewer Christian community centres, Jewish community centres, [u]Muslim community centres[/u*], etc."
*so third down the list, surprised you mentioned it all, what with the recent surge in Buddhist sex rings, beheadings and drunk drivers.
Are we too tolerant toward cowardly little worms in this country?
*so third down the list, surprised you mentioned it all, what with the recent surge in Buddhist sex rings, beheadings and drunk drivers.
Are we too tolerant toward cowardly little worms in this country?
cloughandtaylor 19 Jan 15 18:54 Joined: 22 Jun 08 | Topic/replies: 3,180 | Blogger: cloughandtaylor's blog
Plenty of good replies to a very good OP here.
Ihave always been of the view that this was a much tighter-knit and caring society as long as it was Christian and held those values, pre and post war years were an example.
Last 35 years have seen buisness and the lawyer along with the bank run our society without the caring nature of Christianity, multi-culturism was excessively introduced for the cheap labour and now we see many divided cities in our land.
Lets put this left wing myth to bed,if it was introduced for cheap Labour only workers will have gained entry,Labour introduced mass immigration for votes and to change the social make up of the country. Many of these new arrivals have no intention of working and are advised by left wing translators on how to rip us off .
Plenty of good replies to a very good OP here.
Ihave always been of the view that this was a much tighter-knit and caring society as long as it was Christian and held those values, pre and post war years were an example.
Last 35 years have seen buisness and the lawyer along with the bank run our society without the caring nature of Christianity, multi-culturism was excessively introduced for the cheap labour and now we see many divided cities in our land.
Lets put this left wing myth to bed,if it was introduced for cheap Labour only workers will have gained entry,Labour introduced mass immigration for votes and to change the social make up of the country. Many of these new arrivals have no intention of working and are advised by left wing translators on how to rip us off .
Left wing ffs.
I live near Lesta, the left wing have destroyed this immoral sh1thole, most of us five miles from town will not use the football ground as it is too close to the city.
The point you made, was one that has been obvious for the last 20 years, my point went back even further to involve the other political cretins on the other side.
I used to live in Leicester and it pains me to read some of the things going on there now. I loved the place and always found the Sikhs a great bunch of people, had many good nights out with them. I still visit at least once a year but how the population has changed since '82 is amazing.
ALL religion should be taken with a pinch of salt,scepticism used to be one of the healthy attributes of this country.
HH Sultan Vinegar. I am so sorry to hear that you think your mother is so bad that you expect people to insult her!
God bless you and your mother!
God bless you and your mother!
Ezekiel 23
"Yet she increased her whoring, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the **** in the land of Egypt and lusted after her lovers there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose issue was like that of horses"
What's not to like
"Yet she increased her whoring, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the **** in the land of Egypt and lusted after her lovers there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose issue was like that of horses"
What's not to like
yes we are too tolerant towards ignorance
and we are especially too tolerant towards intolerance
and we are especially too tolerant towards intolerance
the fact there are so many religons should make these clowns think about it but evidence and logic doesnt seem to bother them.......think religon is a form of mental illness
OK enough lurking, this one's going a bit far now. The primary mistake in the OP is:-
the significant minority within each one
if you really think that a significant minority of christians are paedophiles then you need your head checking, either that or you just need to go and meet a few to realise just how ridiculous what you're saying is. In fact, the only way you could reasonably hold this kind of view is if you listen the news and i find it mighty rich for you to accuse me, the christian of being brainwashed, stupid and ignorant when if believe what you're told by the media! Are the significant minority of footballers racist because of Ched Evans and Marlon King? Of course not!
there's an awful lot of hatred bouncing around this thread, as there is on all the anti-religious threads on this forum and as with all intolerance, its born out of ignorance. I don't think any of the forumites who've engaged with me in the past would accuse me personally of being any of the things you throw towards the generically 'religious' on this thread. the only reason for hating us is because you don't know us and furthermore, the only reason you think we're so stupid is because you don't understand why we believe. I'm open to questions for the rest of the night, feel free to be as abusive as you like
the significant minority within each one
if you really think that a significant minority of christians are paedophiles then you need your head checking, either that or you just need to go and meet a few to realise just how ridiculous what you're saying is. In fact, the only way you could reasonably hold this kind of view is if you listen the news and i find it mighty rich for you to accuse me, the christian of being brainwashed, stupid and ignorant when if believe what you're told by the media! Are the significant minority of footballers racist because of Ched Evans and Marlon King? Of course not!
there's an awful lot of hatred bouncing around this thread, as there is on all the anti-religious threads on this forum and as with all intolerance, its born out of ignorance. I don't think any of the forumites who've engaged with me in the past would accuse me personally of being any of the things you throw towards the generically 'religious' on this thread. the only reason for hating us is because you don't know us and furthermore, the only reason you think we're so stupid is because you don't understand why we believe. I'm open to questions for the rest of the night, feel free to be as abusive as you like
Turning the other cheek, just as Jesus commanded.
You can be comforted by the sure and certain knowledge that He loves you and when you are in Heaven all the unbelievers, mockers and tormentors will be punished in hell fire.
You can be comforted by the sure and certain knowledge that He loves you and when you are in Heaven all the unbelievers, mockers and tormentors will be punished in hell fire.
yes that's all true although we're told heaven is so great beyond human comprehention that once we're there, we won't remember Earth and the unbelievers as we'll be too caught up in what's going on.... so i don't really care what happens to them.
When you are there better watch your back, the fallen jihadists might also be there looking for virgins.
I'd love to debate with you fkqmz, but given that I already know that you believe in divine beings despite all the evidence that tells you that none can exist, I can't be bothered.
It is spectacularly funny for you to accuse people of ignorance when your own ignorance is wilful. And frankly, I don't care WHY you believe, I only need to know that you do believe to know that there is something very wrong with you.
It is spectacularly funny for you to accuse people of ignorance when your own ignorance is wilful. And frankly, I don't care WHY you believe, I only need to know that you do believe to know that there is something very wrong with you.
you'd love to believe that's all true but quite apart from being quite judgemental, there's not a shred of evidence to support it.
Oh wait, isn't that what you're meant to say to me?? come on, present you're evidence there's something wrong with me if you believe it so (ahem) religiously!
Oh wait, isn't that what you're meant to say to me?? come on, present you're evidence there's something wrong with me if you believe it so (ahem) religiously!
maybe they will foinavon. actually i was just thinking that it was a gross assumption to think that heaven and hell are so seperated. it's not so inconceivable that me and the jihadist could be stood next to each other in the afterlife - me having a great time and him wishing he coulld come back to earth as jimmy savile. different perspective can be as distinct as different experience so why not.
Damn right it's judgmental. It's meant to be.
maybe they will foinavon. actually i was just thinking that it was a gross assumption to think that heaven and hell are so seperated.
No, it's a gross assumption, not to mention a foolish, pathetic and puerile asumption, that heaven and hell exist. They are notions invented to hoodwink the gullible and keep uneducated people in line. In your case, that appears to have worked.
it's not so inconceivable that me and the jihadist could be stood next to each other in the afterlife - me having a great time and him wishing he coulld come back to earth as jimmy savile.
Yes, it's quite inconceivable. Because there is not, and can not be, an afterlife.
maybe they will foinavon. actually i was just thinking that it was a gross assumption to think that heaven and hell are so seperated.
No, it's a gross assumption, not to mention a foolish, pathetic and puerile asumption, that heaven and hell exist. They are notions invented to hoodwink the gullible and keep uneducated people in line. In your case, that appears to have worked.
it's not so inconceivable that me and the jihadist could be stood next to each other in the afterlife - me having a great time and him wishing he coulld come back to earth as jimmy savile.
Yes, it's quite inconceivable. Because there is not, and can not be, an afterlife.
its also very rude to highjack someone else's conversation. i've spoken with foinavon before and i'm aware of his beliefs. That's for him to ponder. You are a different kettle of fish entirely. I'd put it to you that rubbishing concepts like a man in the sky and a life after death is very easy but its not so easy to rubbish the man who walked on earth. What's your explanation for him?
Listen you lemon, it is you who has hijacked the thread, not I.
Although I guess you could argue that as we were having a perfectly sensible conversation about how thoroughly moronic religious people are, we did need someone to come along and prove the point.
"The man who walked the Earth?" Please elucidate. Is this the guy who cured the lame, turned water into wine and fed 5,000 people with a couple of cod fillets and a loaf of Kingsmill? Or some other guy?
Although I guess you could argue that as we were having a perfectly sensible conversation about how thoroughly moronic religious people are, we did need someone to come along and prove the point.
"The man who walked the Earth?" Please elucidate. Is this the guy who cured the lame, turned water into wine and fed 5,000 people with a couple of cod fillets and a loaf of Kingsmill? Or some other guy?
ah so you have heard of him then. good What's your explanation for him? why is it so ridiculous to believe what he taught?
What's your explanation for him? why is it so ridiculous to believe what he taught?
maybe they will foinavon. actually i was just thinking that it was a gross assumption to think that heaven and hell are so seperated. it's not so inconceivable that me and the jihadist could be stood next to each other in the afterlife
I doubt the jihadist would agree as he believes his paradise is only for him and his ilk. Both you and I are infidels and he would expect that we would be standing side by side in hell.
How's that for a different perspective and why would his view be any more right or wrong than yours?
I doubt the jihadist would agree as he believes his paradise is only for him and his ilk. Both you and I are infidels and he would expect that we would be standing side by side in hell.
How's that for a different perspective and why would his view be any more right or wrong than yours?
I'm still struggling to comprehend what you mean by "what's my explanation for him?'
I am perfectly happy to believe that he existed - I have never had the inclination to research this thoroughly however - and I am equally happy to believe that he may have been quite a decent chap, who loved his neighbours and looked after his old mum.
Sadly though, when you and your co-religionists claim divine status for him, and believe that he was born of a virgin, and that his real father is God and not some carpenter, and put various impossible events down to his intervention, then you've lost me and anyone else with an ounce of intelligence.
I hope this clears it up for you.
I am perfectly happy to believe that he existed - I have never had the inclination to research this thoroughly however - and I am equally happy to believe that he may have been quite a decent chap, who loved his neighbours and looked after his old mum.
Sadly though, when you and your co-religionists claim divine status for him, and believe that he was born of a virgin, and that his real father is God and not some carpenter, and put various impossible events down to his intervention, then you've lost me and anyone else with an ounce of intelligence.
I hope this clears it up for you.
because he is wrong, that's just how it is. what else do you expect me to say? if you need justification of why he is wrong then follow this conversation i'm about to have with jed here but its nothing i've not said on here before many times.
And you will only be having a conversation with me until such time as your lunacy ceases to amuse me.
Ok I will sit back and enjoy.
For the record I think you and the Jihadist are both wrong and can not fault Jed's logic.
For the record I think you and the Jihadist are both wrong and can not fault Jed's logic.
Are you sunset cristo?
Are you Velasquez? He too used to be a forum Crusader.
Are you Velasquez? He too used to be a forum Crusader.
Yeah I understand what you believe. The thing is what I don't think you understand is that the gospels are put together from eye witness accounts, and not a small number of them either. Luke the Evangelist was one of the most intelligent men of his time. He devoted his entire life to making an account of the life and times of Jesus and spoke to over 24,000 eye witnesses when compiling his gospel. He would have spoken to people who saw those various impossible events happen. What's your explanation for that!? all make believe? There's hard evidence of Luke's research in the Jerusalem museum, source documents, cross references by accounts of other people who happened to be in the same places at the same and time he was. I admire you're admittance that you've not done much research into it but I have. I know all about it and I'm telling you - the gospels are genuine accounts.
no i am not sunset cristo, i told him straight up that if he really believed in doing God's will, then he should stop posting on here because he was talking rubbish and not helping the cause!
Yes, I know he does Jed. Just thought that fkqmz might be his alter ego as there are similarities in style if not in Scottishness.
Yeah I understand what you believe. The thing is what I don't think you understand is that the gospels are put together from eye witness accounts, and not a small number of them either. Luke the Evangelist was one of the most intelligent men of his time. He devoted his entire life to making an account of the life and times of Jesus and spoke to over 24,000 eye witnesses when compiling his gospel. He would have spoken to people who saw those various impossible events happen. What's your explanation for that!? all make believe? There's hard evidence of Luke's research in the Jerusalem museum, source documents, cross references by accounts of other people who happened to be in the same places at the same and time he was. I admire you're admittance that you've not done much research into it but I have. I know all about it and I'm telling you - the gospels are genuine accounts.
The really sad thing is that you actually believe all this mumbo-jumbo. Eye-witness accounts of miracles? Virgin births? Honestly mate, you should have a lie down.
The really sad thing is that you actually believe all this mumbo-jumbo. Eye-witness accounts of miracles? Virgin births? Honestly mate, you should have a lie down.
Just out of interest, can I ask you what you think about the Jews? Do you believe that their persecution over the centuries is justified?
Not trying to make any points here, just interested.
Not trying to make any points here, just interested.
you see the thing is it is true. That evidence exists, you can go to Jerusalem yourself and see it so if you just turn round and say its not real then you really do have your head in the sand. You're the one who's being utterly ignorant and everything else you're accusing me of. Maybe you need to spend some time thinking about that.
On the Jews, well in short no I don't believe there's any justification for persecuting them. There is no justification for tyranny and murder, I'm just sorry that people like Hitler claimed to be doing it in the name of God. There's not a lot I can do about what other people claim to be doing in the name of God but if they genuinely believed they were acting out God's will (which I very much doubt) then they had a very twisted understanding of Jesus' teachings. There's absolutely no justification in the bible whatsoever for doing it.
And before any lurkers start quoting Joshua at me, the short explanation for that is that Jesus changed all the rules, Joshua lived before Jesus, we live after him. If you want more than that I can expand.
On the Jews, well in short no I don't believe there's any justification for persecuting them. There is no justification for tyranny and murder, I'm just sorry that people like Hitler claimed to be doing it in the name of God. There's not a lot I can do about what other people claim to be doing in the name of God but if they genuinely believed they were acting out God's will (which I very much doubt) then they had a very twisted understanding of Jesus' teachings. There's absolutely no justification in the bible whatsoever for doing it.
And before any lurkers start quoting Joshua at me, the short explanation for that is that Jesus changed all the rules, Joshua lived before Jesus, we live after him. If you want more than that I can expand.
Which Christian group do you belong to fkqmz? Or may I call you Vel?
Why do you think there are so many Christian splinter groups and can they all be right?
I mean the JWs come round with a bible but don't sound much like catholics for example and say that only the "chosen few" will be resurrected and will live here on earth after Armageddon. The "chosen few" don't include anyone from other groups naturally.
Why do you think there are so many Christian splinter groups and can they all be right?
I mean the JWs come round with a bible but don't sound much like catholics for example and say that only the "chosen few" will be resurrected and will live here on earth after Armageddon. The "chosen few" don't include anyone from other groups naturally.
My church falls under the banner of conservative evangelism. this means we stick rigidly to the bible, it's our reference for everything with our focus on the teaching and instruction primarily from Jesus himself but also from the apostles. There are a lot of christian splinter groups because people will forever want to turn things to suit them. Our anglican church came to be because Henry VIII wanted to change the rules on divorce. That says it all really! Most of their beliefs can be deconstructed using biblical evidence but you wouldn't have seen this because if it's done correctly then its done in private. I'm happy though to tell you about the one you highlight - JWs believe literally in Revelation 7 which says:-
"Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 'Do not harm the land or the sea until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of God.' Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."
Easy to see why they go around telling you that only 144k will be saved isn't it!??
So why are they wrong? Well what they don't tell you is the bit immediately after this says:-
"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language stnading before the Lamb."
If no one can count them how do the JWs know its 144k? So the next question obviously is: This appears quite contradictary, why include that number and what's its significance. Whilst no one can truely claim to definitively "know" what Revelation is all about, the explanation I can accept is that God showed John that number to explain who, not how many would be saved. Throughout the bible, God's people are represented by the number 12 (disciples, tribes of Israel etc). God himself is a perfect square and a thousand just refers to a great number or many times over. So 144,000 represents God with his people many many times over. I think that agrees with "a vast mutitude no one could count" so I'm happy to accept it. Its cryptic but to me, God shows John who will be saved and then demonstrates that the number is uncountable. Makes sense within the context of the whole book.
To accept this might sound like leap of faith because essentially it is but in reality, this is a side point - christians within my church disagree about the details and precise meaning of this book and that's OK because everyone agress that disagreements about Revelation are not an excuse to deny Jesus. Therefore, I might be wrong but it won't matter a jot.
"Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 'Do not harm the land or the sea until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of God.' Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."
Easy to see why they go around telling you that only 144k will be saved isn't it!??
So why are they wrong? Well what they don't tell you is the bit immediately after this says:-
"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language stnading before the Lamb."
If no one can count them how do the JWs know its 144k? So the next question obviously is: This appears quite contradictary, why include that number and what's its significance. Whilst no one can truely claim to definitively "know" what Revelation is all about, the explanation I can accept is that God showed John that number to explain who, not how many would be saved. Throughout the bible, God's people are represented by the number 12 (disciples, tribes of Israel etc). God himself is a perfect square and a thousand just refers to a great number or many times over. So 144,000 represents God with his people many many times over. I think that agrees with "a vast mutitude no one could count" so I'm happy to accept it. Its cryptic but to me, God shows John who will be saved and then demonstrates that the number is uncountable. Makes sense within the context of the whole book.
To accept this might sound like leap of faith because essentially it is but in reality, this is a side point - christians within my church disagree about the details and precise meaning of this book and that's OK because everyone agress that disagreements about Revelation are not an excuse to deny Jesus. Therefore, I might be wrong but it won't matter a jot.
Thanks for the explanation. It's interesting to see how logical thinking is used to construct an edifice from a set of illogical premises. Those premises in this case being a record of someone's dreams.
it's rather like building the tower of Pisa on unstable ground then spending the next few centuries trying to prop it up.
it's rather like building the tower of Pisa on unstable ground then spending the next few centuries trying to prop it up.
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