a strange way at looking at debt? the deficit - numbers are fun (my ****)

What they did was to temporarily reduce the rate that the deficit was increasing at.

Oops it looks like it's off again now.

Labour Built New Hospitals and Schools?

What they did was to organise the building and the future maintenance of them through PFIs.

Paying through the nose for them and putting us in hock to the private sector sharks for decades.

You can bet the public sector will always find the most expensive way of doing anything.

When I say the public sector I include the government.

havent the torys just done what labour said they would do,cut the deficit slower

Labour didnt actually pay for thr building of hospitals or schools, we are now paying for them at silly prices.

Also I would had thought the deficit will increase by year with interest no matter how well they could be doing.

Listening to today programme this morning both Peston and Humphrys got Debt and Deficit mixed up . Agree the debt and debt to gdp is the more relevant number. no Deficit is nice to have but only in the wider context of debt.

so it cant be very nice for us because the debt is off the scale

Yes I notice that zorro

but incredibly the Tories always manage to blame their own deficit on Labour

What is the point of having a government, if they appear to do nothing but blame their failures on the previous government

We might as well let civil servants run the country, I am sure we would be better off, they might actually know what they are doing

If you look at the deficits right through from 1980 there are more deficits under the Tories than Labour

yet it is always Labour spending???????????????

the big problem was in the credit fueled boom the labour government kept spending beyond their means. When the crash came the government had no rainy day fund.

The hospitals and schools built under labour were mainly under pfi build now pay later at ridiculous rates.

The deficit the coalition inherited was nearly 200 billion a year. They have been feeble reducing the deficit but look at the reaction to their attempts.

The debt is a huge problem we spend more on debt interest than on defence - and this is with record low rates.

We owed less than 500 billion in 2008 it has risen by a trillion in just over five years the amounts are staggering. The deficits in the 80s and 90s were chicken feed compared to today.

It is immoral that we are living beyond our means today expecting those who follow to pick up the tab for our greed.

Word of advice for the opening poster - If you only have vague understandings on how deficits work I wouldn't start a thread about it.

Labour did build hospitals. Shame they didnt actually pay for them.  Amazing how easy it is to con some people.

mighty white...you have forgotten one thing, The Credit Crunch, that is where the majority of the debt has come from

In 2008 we were better off than we are now

It is immoral that we are living beyond our means today expecting those who follow to pick up the tab for our greed.

this is called Keynesian economics the whole world lives by that...buy now, pay later

At least we got something for our money Dotchinite...some Hospitals

What has Cameron done, all the money he has saved by throwing public service workers out of work and cutting benefits

he has given back to the rich...he has nothing about our deficit

Amazing how easy it is to con some people.
yes it is, Cameron wins on an election on the claim he will clear our deficit, and then does not do it, I think that is a big con

eBul - it is not Keynesian economics at all.  He argued for counter cyclical government spending.  To follow this we would run a surplus during the credit boom up to 2007.  Brown ran a deficit.

I am not happy with the Tory performance as they haven't kept their promises, but they have reduced the deficit.  Would you like them to cut more drastically to eliminate it completely?  Everyone squeals every time a single cut is announced.  It's pathetic.

Cant see the problem with cuts, if you were spending more than your income you would cutback.

Hypothetical I know, but would be interested to know where the deficit would be today had Labour won in 2010.

People like ebul want the deficit slashed whilst maintaining spending on health, schools and pensions. Cameron has tried and failed to please them.
I think in an impossible position Osbourne has done Ok. Incidentally again yesterday his tax changes hit the rich and gave money to ordinary house buyers.

These idea that somehow the rich are gaining at everyone elses expense is completely baseless but people will believe their tabloids wont they.

Indeed.  The reality is if we want first class services, and also a balanced budget then everyone needs to pay more tax, not just the rich.  Miliband's spiteful mansion tax will raise about 1 week of the NHS budget, yet he spins it as if it will fix all the NHS problems. 

We need to have an honest discussion about whether we are all willing to pay the tax needed to make services excellent, rather than just bashing the rich.

I cant see any government turning it around while their is an influx of cheap labour coming into uk year after year and with the big companies avoiding tax.

Id like to see some sensible analysis about big companies tax avoidance. There is plenty of confusion between turnover and profits in certain quarters but I wonder whether people think allowances given to encourage investment are "tax avoidance" or whether interest paid shouldnt be a tax deductible expense. I know there are issues with companies like starbucks using pricing across countries to shift profits but it would be good to have a proper breakdown so we could see what is unfair tax avoidance and what isnt.

Like everything else we never get sensible adult debate just people ranting about big business dodging their taxes and making them pay more is  a simple solution to cure all our ills when that simply isnt the case.

starbucks avoid uk tax. thats clear to me, i dont see what more analysis is needed. Start with stopping the worst excesses and there might be a discussion

I like bashing the rich java

If I get a leak in my plumbing and call a plumber who says he can fix it, I would not expect him
to spend hours explaining to me why he cannot, then leave without fixing the leak

So it follows if Cameron says he can clear our deficit as he did at our last election, I expect him to do it
not sit on his ar$e telling us why he cannot. Neither are we in recovery while running a deficit. He has also ignored IMF advice.

I am a socialist so have to vote for Milliband, but I accept socialism must pay for itself.

Monetarism I detest. Because its sole aim is to destroy socialism and to drive the living standards of the poor
down to such an appalling level, they will work for next to nothing. Thus our businesses can show a profit, low labour costs,
it my attract other business. But this means a worse life for the poor so I oppose it, and always will, although it may come anyway.

I hope Milliband wins next May, but he has a massive task, we cant pay ourselves more than we earn as a country,
or we just get inflation(money loses its value itself...this hits those on fixed income). But I want a fairer society.

Whoever gets in, I think we have to pay more for our NHS anyway, however we raise the money.

Whichever party gets in, must also control immigration. We are never going to recover if we just keep increasing our
population, we must stabilise it, and reduce it long term. We need more Renewable energy, lots more wind farms, we will benefit
from this in the log run. Free energy.

I also believe in Santa Clause, but this is what I want.

That was poor Brendanuk1, are starbucks going to leave this if they have to pay some tax,
I would hardly think so, just as long as we leave them with some profit

Free energy my arris.

With wind and solar you need the original capacity on standby running inefficiently just in case the wind and sun dont turn up, so power will cost at least twice as much in the future.

ebulGery    04 Dec 14 20:26 
mighty white...you have forgotten one thing, The Credit Crunch, that is where the majority of the debt has come from

ebul the deficit has come from spending more than we get in taxes.

The bailouts are off balance sheet . We are in a mess because year on year government spending rocketed in the labour years and any cut back out is met by squeals from thousands. Brown said he ended boom and bust and spent like a drunken sailor.

Hey ebul
if you are a socialist you will not be voting for Labour - they abandoned it firstly with Kinnock and finished it off with Blair
"""

Yes lets repatriate Starbucks!!!  Sorry - I am being so naughty

"starbucks avoid uk tax. thats clear to me, i dont see what more analysis is needed. Start with stopping the worst excesses and there might be a discussion"


Typical response but not unexpected. Nobody wants to look at the full facts when a general rant based on ignorance will wind the masses up.

Who could possibly be against a detailed analysis or how much and in what areas big companies are judged to avoided. Its all so shallow and childish and no wonder politicians treat the public with such contempt.

Free energy my arris.

With wind and solar you need the original capacity on standby running inefficiently just in case the wind and sun dont turn up, so power will cost at least twice as much in the future.

You don't use the energy all at once....you store it

Are you telling me that in future, there will no sunlight and no wind

That is complete rubbish, not much else I can say

The figures I saw must be on the balance sheet...no one could spend that much

I will find them and put them up when I have time mighty white

You are just compounding a myth, labour wastes money and the Tories have to save us

The problem with that theory if you add up all the deficits, they appear to be worst under the Tories

moisok

you may be right there...yes I preferred the socialism of the 60's and 70's

Also if a football team are in trouble they often bring in a new manager to change things

I do not believe the manager would be able to get away with doing absolutely nothing

by saying 'don't blame me, it was the last manager got us in this mess'

I think he would get the sack


Yet we allow Cameron to do that, he makes no effort to clear our deficit, but just blames it on Labour

I suggest we sack him next May.

In fact he has deliberately run us at a deficit in my opinion

because it gives him an excuse to smash down on benefits and public service workers

which is what monetarism is all about, it don't care about deficist, only driving the poor into the ground

or as near as they can get away with

We wont get any satisfactory resolution in May.
The Labour areas will remain Labour, the Tory areas will remain Tory and the marginals will be shared out between Labour, Tory, UKIP and .. ummm.. the otters.
and wohoever gets the key of the black door will blame the other main side for all their problems. Has this ever happened before?

never

.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06fCDiu9HiA

" I've never gotten this guy.  He was always chasing whatever fads, trying to be popular.  His "anti commercial" 90's schtick was a very common schtick.  Remember Nirvana?  Remember Grunge?  It was hip back then to be anti-commercial.  In fact, it got so hip to be anti-commercial that being anti-commercial became commercial!  Hicks was just riding the coattails of that anti-commercial fad.  He was never original.  Never came up with anything original. "

democracy in its current state is pointless.

giving a stamp duty boost was about the worst thing you could have done.
the housing market needs slowing not growing ffs....

rents have to come down so there is more cash flowing around and less housing benefits paid out.

thats a major reason why the deficit is growing..


and these buffoons want to help the housing market!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no wonder why this country is a shambles.

EbulGery on how simple it is to store wind and solar power for when the sun's not out and the wind isn't blowing at the right speed: You don't use the energy all at once....you store it

Go on then. Show us how to build batteries the size of towns.

Here's a Californian company that uses cutting-edge technology to produce batteries that allow homes and businesses to store solar power to use when the sun's not shining.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doosan_Fuel_Cell_America

The main product is the ClearEdge5,[6] PEMFC which produces up to five kilowatts, with the heat by-product suitable for space and water heating.[16] In all, a single fuel cell can produce 43.8 megawatt hours of electricity annually,[16] and has a 20 year lifespan.[22] ClearEdge offers the cell for $56,000 and markets to places where solar energy may be less effective.[16] The primary market is large homes and small businesses, though the marketing and sales focus is on California where high energy prices and government incentives make the units more feasible.[6][23] The ClearEdge5 is about the size of a large refrigerator.

So for just $2800/year(!) every home or business can purchase a battery the size of a fridge to store solar power.

PS It closed its operations in Connecticut in April 2014,[2] and filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in May 2014.

ebulGery    05 Dec 14 01:02 
Free energy my arris.

With wind and solar you need the original capacity on standby running inefficiently just in case the wind and sun dont turn up, so power will cost at least twice as much in the future.

You don't use the energy all at once....you store it

Are you telling me that in future, there will no sunlight and no wind

That is complete rubbish, not much else I can say

Where do we store it ??

We could always use the planet's natural method of storing solar power for millions of years: photosynthesis and fossilization.

The good news is that these ultra-efficient natural energy-storage cells are located all over the planet, and we've already discovered enough of them to last us for centuries. In fact we're currently recovering some of them in these places called "coal mines".

Ibrahima Sonko    
Where do we store it ??

I've got loads of room in my shed to store electricity.

Cheap rates.