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betlarge
28 Oct 14 13:22
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Date Joined: 14 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 310 | Blogger: betlarge's blog
There's such a lot of nonsense spoken on this subject that I thought I would try to apply some statistical rationality to it (it's a long post!).

Current Population
The 2011 Census recorded 2.79m (4.8% of pop) self-reported Muslims in the UK. I cannot find any hard-and-fast statistics for inflows since, however most reasonable on-line anecdotal evidence assumes at least half of all new arrivals are Muslims. Extrapolating from figures in my "Statistics on Immigration" thread, which showed 671k new entrants and a guesstimate of 640k illegal immigrants (also counting 50% as Muslim) that would mean a further 335k and 320k = 655k equalling 3.45m.

On that 2011 Census, 7.2% of the respondents (4.55m) kept their religion to themselves. I cannot see any reason why Muslims would be any more or less likely to do so, so lets assume that the national average of Muslims - 4.8% - of that 4.55m are also Muslims. That would mean another 218k giving the UK a credible Muslim population of 3.67m (5.7% of pop) as we stand.

Birth Rate
The Washington, US, based Pew Research Center is probably the world's most reliable source for demographic analysis, so I will be using their statistics.

Currently, non-Muslims in the UK have a birth-rate of 1.8 children per couple, which is not enough to self-generate (that normally falls between 2.0 - 2.1). Pew feel this is likely to stay about the same over the next 100 years, as it becomes the norm for Western families to be smaller. The non-Muslim population will therefore gently decline.

The Muslim birth-rate is 3.0 children which predicates a rapid expansion in that population. However, this rate is also in decline long-term as it heads more towards UK norms. Pew estimates a fall to 2.5 children by around 2030, although that is still considerably expansionary.

Due to recent immigration and a recent history of higher birth-rates there is also now a demographic 'bulge' of younger Muslims compared to the non-Muslim population. This will provide a one-off 'hit' of extra children over the next 20 years.

It is statistically relevant to mention that new immigrants are certain to conform to birth-rates of their home countries initially, so the first generation will always produce a much greater amount of children. As these children have children, the birth-rate will drop accordingly.

Other Factors
There are simply a huge amount of other factors that can effect numbers. Immigration will be the key one, but also numbers converting to/leaving Islam, inter-faith marriages (these are very low at present in the Islamic community) and a general secularising effect of Western European countries. Again, the latter is not happening at the moment with Muslims still very religious (78% regarded their religion as 'very important' - NOP, 2006).

Predictions
Based on the 2011 Census, and assuming immigration does not change significantly, Pew gives a figure of 5.52 million British Muslims by 2030, some 8.2% of an expanded 67.3m UK population. This is an increase of 98% over 19 years, against a population increase of about 6.1%.

I am therefore setting a benchmark 100% increase over 20 years on a 6.1% rising population which approximates very closely with the above figures.  I'm also basing predictions on my late 2014 (I'll call them 2015 for neatness) figures of 3.67 million - 5.7% of a 64.1m UK population.

Table 1. Assuming a 100% Muslim population increase over 20 years as forecast by Pew. (Year/Muslim pop/Total pop/Muslim percentage of pop)

2035 7.3m 68.0m 10.7%
2055 14.7m 72.2m 20.4%
2075 29.4m 76.6m 38.5%
2095 58.7m 81.2m 72.5%

This would see Muslims become a majority (i.e. 50.01% of population) by 2082.

Table 2. Downgrading to a more modest 75% Muslim population increase over 20 years. (Year/Muslim pop/Total pop/Muslim percentage of pop)

2035 6.4m 68.0m 9.4%
2055 11.2m 72.2m 15.6%
2075 19.7m 76.6m 25.7%
2095 34.4m 81.2m 42.4%
2115 60.2M 86.2m 69.8%

Muslims would become a majority in this case by 2101.

Table 3. Downgrading again to an even more modest 50% Muslim population increase over 20 years. (Year/Muslim pop/Total pop/Muslim percentage of pop)

2035 5.51m 68.0m 8.1%
2055 8.3m 72.2m 11.5%
2075 12.4m 76.6m 16.2%
2095 18.6m 81.2m 22.9%
2115 27.9M 86.2M 32.3%
2135 41.8M 91.4M 45.7%
2155 62.7M 97.0M 64.6%

Muslims would become a majority in this case by 2140.

Conclusions
I like the Table 2 prediction. Table 1 should technically be the most accurate, being bang in line with Pew's forecasts and actually being LESS than the 69% rate of Muslim increase from 2001-2011. However this whole exercise is based on the dubious science of extrapolation (!) and it just doesn't feel right to me. Repeated 100% increases hardly ever occur and surely have an upper limit.

I would be staggered if Table 3's prediction is correct. It would probably need some combination of a massive drop-off in birth-rates, a surge in inter-marrying, considerable secularisation and an end to immigration. There is absolutely no sign of any of those occurring as we stand.

Table 2 looks and feels right to me.  I believe it's statistically credible and moderates the Pew figures based on a presumed impact of some or all of the factors mentioned above. I would call Britain being a Muslim majority country shortly after 2100 i.e. slightly less than 100 years time.

As mentioned before, these stats are based on forecasting and extrapolating, and many factors can change as the years go by. Please feel free to tear this apart on a mathematical basis!  I don't claim to be a demographer or scientist, I've simply tried to apply a bit of logic to a very hard to quantify subject.
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Report lybertyne October 28, 2014 12:28 PM GMT
One's too many.
Report wit-ham October 28, 2014 12:53 PM GMT
this has always been obvious that we would eventually become the minority
maybe four or five generations down the line due to current breeding patterns
But as not here then i don't really care and i'm being fried and thrown in the sea after
i'm gone so they can't exhume me and disfigure my already disfigured body
Report call me a taxi October 28, 2014 2:05 PM GMT
Current Population
The 2011 Census recorded 2.79m (4.8% of pop) self-reported Muslims in the UK


Newham has 98,456 muslims (31.97% of the population)

20% of the population declared 'no religion'

6% refused to declare their religion.

Hardly surprising that there are under 400 Jews living in Newham these days.

The whole of London percentage is 12.39% muslim.
Report Burton-Brewers October 28, 2014 2:51 PM GMT
I'm glad I will not be here to see it
Report Sica Dan October 28, 2014 2:56 PM GMT
Not just the UK, most of the E.U. will be the same.
Ghadaffi  warned us years ago that Islam would
conquer  Europe without the need of a single sword.
Report Foinavon October 28, 2014 3:27 PM GMT
There are many Muslims where I live. Of those I know personally, everyone, without exception, has married someone from Pakistan. Some with young children have already promised those children to the children of people they know in Pakistan (usually relatives).
If this pattern is maintained, and I see no reason why it should not be unless immigration rules are changed, then the number of Muslim immigrants will rise in line with the population growth.
Not sure if this is factored into the above equations.
Report dunlaying October 28, 2014 5:23 PM GMT
I stopped reading when "statistical rationality" gave way to "reasonable on-line anecdotal evidence".
Report brendanuk1 October 28, 2014 5:30 PM GMT
dare is sum numbers in it wiv decimals and everyfink though
Report Crisp77 October 28, 2014 5:36 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2014 -- 11:54AM, 11kv wrote:


A lad (Paki) I was at school with went to Pakistan for a holiday and was asked what is Pakistan like ,his reply "A lot like Bradford with less Pakistanis.................


He stole that joke from comedy genius Citizen Khan Shocked

Report pumphol. October 28, 2014 5:57 PM GMT
There are some things that just are not worth stealing Mischief
Report betlarge October 28, 2014 6:03 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2014 -- 12:23PM, dunlaying wrote:


I stopped reading when "statistical rationality" gave way to "reasonable on-line anecdotal evidence".


That's a good shout, anything anecdotal is best avoided. However, that comment was only about new arrivals since 2011 plus all illegal immigrants which together represent only 18% of the total number.

I guessed at 50% based on Pew's estimated Muslim inflow in 2010 of 64k from a net migration of 252k or just over 25%. This was the only recent year for which I could get such a figure. Two factors were then taken into account since the 2011 Census:

1. The Arab Spring, which has led to a sharp spike in asylum applications from Muslim lands.
2. I believe the rapidly increasing number of Muslims since 2001 would by 2011 have started drawing in an increasing amount of relatives from abroad (family, marriage etc)

50% may be too high or too low: it is a reasonable guess. However, when we are talking about the illegal immigrants section, that blows out pretty much all EU, US and generally first world Western countries' immigrants. I would expect my 50% guesstimate there to be understated, possibly considerably understated.

Overall, I'm happy with the notion of 50% of immigrants since 2011 + all illegal immigrants being Muslim. Either way, we are talking a small percentage difference on 18% of the overall total.

Report 11kv October 28, 2014 7:01 PM GMT
Crisp77 Devil
Report Foinavon October 28, 2014 7:15 PM GMT
In your original post,betlarge, you invited us to play devil's advocate and you intimated at the dangers of extrapolation as some factors can change.
On the political front a big unknown is if and when Turkey becomes a full member of the EU. Also will the UK remain a member of the EU.
Impossible to know the answer to these two possibilities but they would affect the results of your calculation.
Report bigmo October 28, 2014 10:01 PM GMT
Is it fair to assume that the op thinks that anyone who has any reservations against the muslim community are generally rancid racist c****?
Report call me a taxi October 28, 2014 10:19 PM GMT
Referendum required for that.

Come back after the election.
Report bongo October 28, 2014 10:34 PM GMT
Are the estimates adjusted for emigration: e.g. Portsmouth to Kobane
Report Mighty Whites 2008 October 28, 2014 10:47 PM GMT
the thesis here presumes that all muslims will remain muslims and not become atheists as time progresses. Christianity has dropped off significantly in the west over the last 50 years. As time progresses this may well become apparent in other faiths.
Report betlarge October 28, 2014 10:52 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2014 -- 2:15PM, Foinavon wrote:


In your original post,betlarge, you invited us to play devil's advocate and you intimated at the dangers of extrapolation as some factors can change.On the political front a big unknown is if and when Turkey becomes a full member of the EU. Also will the UK remain a member of the EU.Impossible to know the answer to these two possibilities but they would affect the results of your calculation.


I'm not convinced that Turkey joining the EU would greatly swell Muslim ranks in the UK. Large Turkish and Kurdish communities in Germany would make them a more natural host. Turkey's recent intransigence over ISIS has done them no favours regarding membership of the EU either.

If we left the EU, there would be a minor reduction in Muslim immigrants but likely a greater one in non-Muslims. They're good points though, and just a sample of the number of variables that can play into these figures.

Report betlarge October 28, 2014 10:54 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2014 -- 5:47PM, Mighty Whites 2008 wrote:


the thesis here presumes that all muslims will remain muslims and not become atheists as time progresses. Christianity has dropped off significantly in the west over the last 50 years. As time progresses this may well become apparent in other faiths.


Spot on. One would think that Secularism has to be a major player over the decades. However, it is worth noting that after 40 years of large-scale Islamic immigration, Muslims seem at least as religious as they were, possibly even more so.

Report call me a taxi October 28, 2014 11:43 PM GMT
Mighty Whites 2008    28 Oct 14 22:47 
the thesis here presumes that all muslims will remain muslims and not become atheists as time progresses. Christianity has dropped off significantly in the west over the last 50 years. As time progresses this may well become apparent in other faiths.


The largest group to declare their religion in Newham are christians.
Report Foinavon October 28, 2014 11:51 PM GMT
I think that overcrowding issues will eventually put a cap on population growth including that of Muslims perhaps to the point of them not becoming a majority in the UK for several centuries if at all.
I think this despite living in a city (Birmingham) where the Asian population, mainly Muslim, has grown to be close to becoming a majority in just a couple of generations.
Report David Fishwick Minibus Sales October 29, 2014 11:50 AM GMT
never fails to amuse when the colonialists complain about immigrants
Report David Fishwick Minibus Sales October 29, 2014 11:51 AM GMT
and that, alanis, is irony
Report Facts October 29, 2014 12:04 PM GMT
The question was asked earlier. All the ' calculations' refer to immigration. You need to factor in levels of emigration too. These are significant numbers, as you assume all immigrants stay in the uk permanently. They don't.
Report Do wah Diddy October 29, 2014 12:18 PM GMT
JUST LOOK AT THE GREY SQUIRELLS A FEW WAS LET IN ,AND WITHIN NO TIME AT ALL THEY HAD PUSHED THE RED SQUIRRELS INTO SMALL PARTS OF THE COUNTRY ,THEY RULE THE ROOST
Report Crisp77 October 29, 2014 12:44 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2014 -- 5:47PM, Mighty Whites 2008 wrote:


the thesis here presumes that all muslims will remain muslims and not become atheists as time progresses. Christianity has dropped off significantly in the west over the last 50 years. As time progresses this may well become apparent in other faiths.


Agreed. I'm thinking of giving up being a muslim so I can try Hogbites hand cooked Pork Crackling.

Report Pandorica October 29, 2014 12:45 PM GMT
http://goo.gl/Agbajf

The reviews are tremendous
Report betlarge October 29, 2014 12:58 PM GMT

Oct 29, 2014 -- 7:04AM, Facts wrote:


The question was asked earlier. All the ' calculations' refer to immigration. You need to factor in levels of emigration too. These are significant numbers, as you assume all immigrants stay in the uk permanently. They don't.


No the figures used are for net migration i.e. immigration - emigration. Most people refer to this as 'immigration' although as you point out it's technically incorrect.

Whilst having a significant impact on the Muslim population stats at the moment, as that population grows immigration will become very much less of a factor than birth rates.

Report bongo October 29, 2014 8:16 PM GMT
About time the UK had an equivalent to the First Amendment in the US, something like 'Parliament prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion'.
Report Foinavon October 29, 2014 8:30 PM GMT
Don't think that can happen unfortunately Bongo, the Monarch is head of the established division of Christianity in the UK.
Report bongo October 30, 2014 9:07 PM GMT
Indeed so F, it couldn't happen peacefully. Prince Charles wants to take an oath as 'Defender of Faiths' rather than the current 'Defender of the Faith' when and if he is coronated. As if that's some unifying and appeasing thing to do, but it isn't. All the faiths together still makes a minority in the UK. Even people with less than five years to live are overwhelmingly not going to church/mosque/neolithic stone circles to worship, and they are overwhelmingly not basing their spending and voting on what an ancient text or their relationship with Jesus tells them to.

There are some good secular values around, belief in fair-play, tolerance, support for the under-dog, team work, cooperation, investment and others. France has Liberty, egalite, fraternite. The amazing United States of America has life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. There's no chance the Monarchy would grab a sub-set of such values and put them in an oath, and knock faith down a level to the same ranking as our shared vices.

More out of touch than politicians and far less touchable.
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