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Chit Chat
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On the eve of what could be the most important political event of my lifetime I ask all my friends in Scotland to ask yourself just a few questions before you vote:
1. Why do you think it is that - after ignoring Scotland for over 30 years - the leaders of the three main parties (plus UKIP) have made such an effort to woo the people of Scotland all of a sudden? Do you really think it is because of ´our shared history´, ´common language and values´, or the ´family that is the United Kingdom´? Do you really think they care so much about us? Or is it more likely - as Dennis Healey has said - that Westminster is well aware just how essential Scottish resources (oil, hydro, wind energy) are to the Exchequer and the economy of the UK? Is it possible that they know that Scotland could be successful and would show the rest of the UK what can be achieved?
2. Can you really trust any of the major party leaders to deliver on their offer of DevoMax? Nothing has been specified or guaranteed in writing. The what and the when are still unknown. The PM has already said that any negotiations would have to wait until after the next UK election. English backbenchers from all parties have already come out and said that they would vote against any further powers for Scotland and, in common with the vast majority of English people, prefer instead a review of the Barnett formula so that Scotland gets the same financial allocation as England (ie LESS money). On top of everything else DevoMax was put on the table during the 28 day Purdah, in breach of the Edinburgh agreement agreed by all parties, during which time NO government would make any political offers to influence the referendum result.
3. Even if you do not like or trust Alec Salmond and the SNP, can you really say that you can trust Cameron, Osborne, Milliband, Darling, Brown, Robertson, Clegg or Farage any more? While the SNP government has consistently delivered on its manifesto promises none of the others can say the same. But if you want to be rid of Salmond and the SNP then Scotland will have that chance in 2016. In the absence of any other creditable opposition a No vote tomorrow, however, will absolutely guarantee an SNP government in Edinburgh for a long time to come.
4. While it is understandable that you may fear the uncertainty of becoming a small independent nation can you really say, hand on heart, that the future of Scotland, of its young people, of the NHS, of the most vulnerable in our society, or even the economy are all safer in the hands of discredited, deceitful politicians in London who have given us food banks, ATOS, university fees, zero-hour contracts, the poll tax, the bedroom tax, a privatised NHS by stealth, privatised mail, illegal wars, a militarised police force, domestic spying and reduced civil rights, tax cuts for the rich and austerity for the rest? Is that really the only way? Is that really what you want to leave to future generations?
5. Do you not want to be part of a new future where democracy means something and your vote counts? A country where politicians are once again accountable to the people who elect them. Where the people of Scotland can shape and affect the kind of society we want to have.
6. Do you not want to be part of a nation that prioritises health, education and the welfare of people ahead of the obscenity that is the weapons of mass destruction sited next to our largest population centre? Weapons we can never use. Weapons whose only purpose is to murder innocents and assure total destruction of our planet. Weapons whose main purpose is only to keep the UK at the top table of the UN and best buddy to a criminal US.
Can you really vote NO tomorrow, and keep things the way they are - or worse - and never ever wonder what might have been had you been braver?
1. Why do you think it is that - after ignoring Scotland for over 30 years - the leaders of the three main parties (plus UKIP) have made such an effort to woo the people of Scotland all of a sudden? Do you really think it is because of ´our shared history´, ´common language and values´, or the ´family that is the United Kingdom´? Do you really think they care so much about us? Or is it more likely - as Dennis Healey has said - that Westminster is well aware just how essential Scottish resources (oil, hydro, wind energy) are to the Exchequer and the economy of the UK? Is it possible that they know that Scotland could be successful and would show the rest of the UK what can be achieved?
2. Can you really trust any of the major party leaders to deliver on their offer of DevoMax? Nothing has been specified or guaranteed in writing. The what and the when are still unknown. The PM has already said that any negotiations would have to wait until after the next UK election. English backbenchers from all parties have already come out and said that they would vote against any further powers for Scotland and, in common with the vast majority of English people, prefer instead a review of the Barnett formula so that Scotland gets the same financial allocation as England (ie LESS money). On top of everything else DevoMax was put on the table during the 28 day Purdah, in breach of the Edinburgh agreement agreed by all parties, during which time NO government would make any political offers to influence the referendum result.
3. Even if you do not like or trust Alec Salmond and the SNP, can you really say that you can trust Cameron, Osborne, Milliband, Darling, Brown, Robertson, Clegg or Farage any more? While the SNP government has consistently delivered on its manifesto promises none of the others can say the same. But if you want to be rid of Salmond and the SNP then Scotland will have that chance in 2016. In the absence of any other creditable opposition a No vote tomorrow, however, will absolutely guarantee an SNP government in Edinburgh for a long time to come.
4. While it is understandable that you may fear the uncertainty of becoming a small independent nation can you really say, hand on heart, that the future of Scotland, of its young people, of the NHS, of the most vulnerable in our society, or even the economy are all safer in the hands of discredited, deceitful politicians in London who have given us food banks, ATOS, university fees, zero-hour contracts, the poll tax, the bedroom tax, a privatised NHS by stealth, privatised mail, illegal wars, a militarised police force, domestic spying and reduced civil rights, tax cuts for the rich and austerity for the rest? Is that really the only way? Is that really what you want to leave to future generations?
5. Do you not want to be part of a new future where democracy means something and your vote counts? A country where politicians are once again accountable to the people who elect them. Where the people of Scotland can shape and affect the kind of society we want to have.
6. Do you not want to be part of a nation that prioritises health, education and the welfare of people ahead of the obscenity that is the weapons of mass destruction sited next to our largest population centre? Weapons we can never use. Weapons whose only purpose is to murder innocents and assure total destruction of our planet. Weapons whose main purpose is only to keep the UK at the top table of the UN and best buddy to a criminal US.
Can you really vote NO tomorrow, and keep things the way they are - or worse - and never ever wonder what might have been had you been braver?
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Don't forget, though, if you vote 'YES'...you will not be able to 'green-out' later.
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Can you really vote NO tomorrow, and keep things the way they are - or worse - and never ever wonder what might have been had you been braver
Until the people running the independence campaign give straight answers and convincing ones at that then I'll be a NO. Repeating myself here but we are being asked to vote for independence without knowing what currency we will have and without knowing whether we will be in or out of the EU. Two basic questions and Salmond won't answer the first and lied about the second. Asking us to vote in hope? FFS! |
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Tip - Great post. If the Scots don't vote for YES tomorrow will the future generations suffer?
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....even better, yet another reason to vote "Yes".....can't go back
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If you had had a couple of decent working gold mines in the middle ages the Plantagenets would have sorted you out - permanently. In ignorance of the oil, why would they bother? If you vote Yes, the rUK will sensibly withdraw all its money from your thriving financial centres - who wouldn't? You'll be run by a socialists whose electoral survival depends on stuffing cash - from taxes - into the mouths of the non-contributors. Businesses will flee south. Thanks for the extra income. Welcome to oblivion.
Hey, this (Lidl) ouzo is good. |
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Do we even need to bother?
1. “The Scottish Parliament is permanent” A meaningless platitude. As long as Westminster is sovereign, it can close Holyrood down at a moment’s notice. No government can bind its successors. Six years from now when Boris Johnson is Prime Minister, do you think he’ll give a toss what Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg said in 2014? Do you think he’ll even remember who they were? 2. “Extensive new powers” No. Expensive new responsibilities. 3. “Sharing our resources equitably across all four nations” Which as Scotland currently provides a disproportionate share of the resources, means we’ll have to put even more in and get even less back than we do now. Johann Lamont has already told us (well, she told someone else behind our back) that we’re not getting more money. So we know that any change will be for the worse, and the UK parties all tell us that “a No vote is a vote for change”. You do the maths. 4. “Continuation of the Barnett allocation” You don’t have to change the Barnett Formula to reduce the amount of money it provides Scotland with. You just need to reduce the portion of Scotland’s block grant to which the Formula is applied. If you cut that in half by making Scotland raise the rest itself from taxation, you can keep the Formula exactly the same but slash billions from the actual amount of money it delivers. 5. “How much is spent on the NHS will be a matter for the Scottish Parliament” Well, yes, in the same way that someone on the minimum wage gets to decide how much they spend on Ferraris. The Scottish Government can ultimately only slice the pie it gets from Westminster. It can’t control the size of that pie. We already knew that the three UK party leaders thought Scots were idiots. Now we can conclusively state that the Daily Record thinks its readers are too. The hollow insults “pledged” above – which will actually make Scotland WORSE off – are what they think the people of Scotland can be bribed with. We have more faith in our countrymen and women than that. |
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How can AS answer these two questions when both things can only be decided and negotiated AFTER a Yes vote?
As much as the big three party leaders are maintaining that there will be no currency union many economists are saying that it is a big bluff. If Scotland is denied from keeping the pound - a net contributor with one of the richest supplies of oil in the world - and therefore rUK is left with all the national debt sterling will tumble on the currency markets. This will not be allowed to happen. EU entry negotiations can only take place later...if the people of Scotland decide they want to hand over sovereignty again and join up to TTIP, which I doubt. NATO membership will be a formality. |
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bodil cheap ouzo? cant you afford the good stuff?
when we are eventually a free country will will get our own mealy mouthed corrupt politicians in place..wont need your eton based bum boys to exploit us any more. |
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akabula,
In my view, the currency will be the pound, at least initially, despite what the "No" side currently say. If not, there is best part of 2 years to figure it out. But as I said elsewhere its not about currency, an economic tool, is about self-determination. The EU, also bluffing - no mechanism in place to dispel Scotland from EU. And after independence the EU lose the country that provides 60 odd percent of oil. yeah, right. UK is where the real doubt is over EU membership. So when I have all the answers to every conceivable issue that may arise for a new state, I'll vote for an independent Scotland?  I believe, you'd always find a reason to keep the Union with England - that is fine. There are bigger economic problems for Scotland in being a small region within a bigger state, one with colossal debt - but this is not an issue? |
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He could tell us plan B with the currency and you conveniently missed the point about the EU in that he lied to us saying he'd sought and bought legal advice.
Also promising lower taxation and more spending underpinned by the oil revenues although later he tells us he will save the oil income. Why hasn't the SNP used all of its powers, particularly the tax raising power, to combat some of the negatives you quote? |
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The Tory establishment remind me of a guy at work who used to lend workmates 100 quid and ask for 200 quid back.
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akabula, the referendum is not about Salmond or the SNP, do you not realise that yet?
In 2016 you can vote them out. |
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Is that the same EU that the majority of English voters want a referendum on to get out.
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And the same currency that is secured on the world markets on the strength of our oil?
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And the same Tory establishment that charge decent, poor folk in England to pay for prescriptions?
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And for eye tests?
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and charge parents to send their kids to further education?
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akabula, the referendum is not about Salmond or the SNP, do you not realise that yet?
In 2016 you can vote them out. Oh really No but it's Salmond and the SNP trying to sell us the idea. And you can quote every negative you like but the reality is that they would more than likely worsen in an independent Scotland. |
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Akabula, give me 5 good reasons to stay within the UK.
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Some of this stuff is so far from reality you wonder who let the posters out (nurses night out?). The EU will punish Scotland - separatism is less appealing than leprosy. Most of the oil is currently sub-economic. If you take the pound and expect the central bank to back you up you lose control of most fiscal and monetary policy (ie you can't bribe your electorate). You're anti-nuclear weapons so you can't join NATO. If you renege on your share of the national debt no one will lend you any money except at punitive rates - you'll be the new Greece but without the sunshine and wine (plenty of whine though). We will take our money (90%) out of Scotland - the companies will follow, or go bust. Enjoy.
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Who do you want to sell us the idea, the man from delmonte
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and charge parents to send their kids to further education?
Do you know how many college places were sacrificed to allow that concession mac? |
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I´ve never voted SNP in my life. Their nickname for most of my life was the tartan tories, but now they are the very best of a very very bad bunch.
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Bodil has been drinking again and he has the cheek to stereotype the Scots as drunks
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Yep - they stuffed the working classes to help the lawyers/bankers kids.
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Thanks mightymac - I was sorely lacking ad hominen attacks. At least I will be sober in the morning but you will still be deranged.
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bodil, WALOFS you spout, pontificating arrogantly as usual, as if you know everything when clearly you are as clueless as the rest of the right-wing nutjobs on here.
You're anti-nuclear weapons so you can't join NATO. Apart from the US the UK is the only other NATO country out of 28 who has nuclear weapons available to NATO. France has them but doesn´t let NATO anywhere near them. |
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Akabula, give me 5 good reasons to stay within the UK.
What a silly question mac. Read any of the recent NO campaign adverts, it'll save me typing them out. It's very easy to say that everything will be better in an independent Scotland but where's the proof? |
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If you asked the people of Ireland today would they like to remain independent or join the United Kingdom it would be a "yes" without question.
Better to be in a big Europe than stay with England, and when England vote to leave Europe Scotland will be forced to tag along with them. I think Scotland are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, where they are unable to leave their captors. |
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bodil..just be glad we have given you something to get upset about.
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akabula, in all the many referendum discussions on here where you have contributed, not once have I seen you justify why you advocate voting No.
Or are you one of those muppets that enters discussions, disses others, just states an opinion but doesn´t feel they have to justify it. |
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bodil, WALOFS you spout, pontificating arrogantly as usual, as if you know everything when clearly you are as clueless as the rest of the right-wing nutjobs on here.
Sums up the yes campaign strategy. Verbally abuse anyone who has an opposing opinion. |
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The Yes vote will simply not be allowed to be victorious. Simples
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Bodil, I always liked your posts, but you have done nothing but insult the Scots throughout these threads calling YES voters, unemployed, drunken, wife beaters, who live on a diet of deep fried Mars Bars and now we`re deranged.
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We're on a conga line into poverty which is being whipped up by snp politicians.
fly the flag? you can keep it  |
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Akabula, why don`t you answer Bodil back who insults Scots rather than defend him?
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Akabula, why don`t you answer Bodil back who insults Scots rather than defend him?
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[i]akabula, in all the many referendum discussions on here where you have contributed, not once have I seen you justify why you advocate voting No.
Or are you one of those muppets that enters discussions, disses others, just states an opinion but doesn´t feel they have to justify it.[/i I am in the NO camp, ie for the status quo. The yes campaign needs to convince me that independence would be for the good of Scotland. If it can't convince me then that is my justification for voting NO. Is that really that hard to understand. Muppet? The yes campaign throwing insults around like half bricks. |
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Akabula, you are going on about not getting EU membership yet want to remain tied to a country that wants out?
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