Sunni minority in Saudi Arabia BBC News 24 now

Bounties for catching illegals is a start

like 10000 places for nurses to train so they can, cheaply,  recruit from outside the uk

students cannot get places to train as doctors in the uk

can you see the idea!!??/

its all about cost
what is racist about that except racist against our own uk people black asian or white.

even the asian MPs in Labour are now campaigning about this

you do not understand what is going on
it is about labour and capital

providing labour for profit

learn that first then come back

If they cannot ship them in then they will ship the jobs out east.
If I was running a business this is what I would do.

PROFIT  is good.   I employed someone where the government paid him and it was no cost to me.

Love it!!!!

I was being sarcastic in the first part moisok

Oh, and to be pedantic, Saudi is Sunni majority leopard.

Hank - they will be gunning for you now!!!  Me - well I will be after the contracts-  money rules!!!

prosecution, suppression of women , but support of the west - what a tangled web we weave -  silence from the left (except me)  and from the feminist guardianista apologists

does it not stick in your throat
people treated like non humans  - yahck    makes me sick

and no pressure from our sickening so called politicians!!!

lol moisok - The immigration debate, now it has finally been able to get in to the mainstream is certainly not a black and white issue if you pardon the pun I consider myself to have more left wing than right wing opinions, but to have a combination of both is healthy imo. However, there are too many on the left that scream racist at anyone that doesn't want to see the UK go from 60 odd million to 100+ within a few years!

Oh, and to get on track with the thread, that we are allies with Saudi is a disgrace. They cause a large degree of the trouble in the Middle East.

and they are going to get you for starters!!! ha ha

Minority not Sunni, correct (but they are fascistic against the minority):

Wiki :

There are about 25 million people who are Muslim, or 97% of the total population.[227] However excluding foreign workers, about 100% of its population is Muslim.[228] Data for Saudi Arabia comes primarily from general population surveys, which are less reliable than censuses or large-scale demographic and health surveys for estimating minority-majority ratios.[227] About 85–90% of Saudis are Sunni, while Shias represent around 10–15% of the Muslim population.[229] The official and dominant form of Sunni Islam in Saudi Arabia is commonly known as Wahhabism (a name which some of its proponents consider derogatory, preferring the term Salafism[230]), founded in the Arabian Peninsula by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab in the eighteenth century, is often described as 'puritanical', 'intolerant' or 'ultra-conservative'. However, proponents consider that its teachings seek to purify the practice of Islam of any innovations or practices that deviate from the seventh-century teachings of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad and his companions.[231] Shias face persecution in employment and religious ceremonies.[232]

In 2010, the U.S. State Department stated that in Saudi Arabia "freedom of religion is neither recognized nor protected under the law and is severely restricted in practice" and that "government policies continued to place severe restrictions on religious freedom".[6] No faith other than Islam is permitted to be practiced, although there are nearly a million Christians – nearly all foreign workers – in Saudi Arabia.[233] There are no churches or other non-Muslim houses of worship permitted in the country.[6] Even private prayer services are forbidden in practice and the Saudi religious police reportedly regularly search the homes of Christians.[233] Foreign workers have to observe Ramadan but are not allowed to celebrate Christmas or Easter.[233]

Conversion by Muslims to another religion (apostasy) carries the death penalty, although there have been no confirmed reports of executions for apostasy in recent years.[6] Proselytizing by non-Muslims is illegal,[6] and the last Christian priest was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1985.[233] There are some Hindus and Buddhists in Saudi Arabia. Compensation in court cases discriminates against non-Muslims: once fault is determined, a Muslim receives all of the amount of compensation determined, a Jew or Christian half, and all others a sixteenth.[233] Saudi Arabia has officially identified atheists as terrorists.[234] The regulations place secular citizens who commit thought crimes in the same category as violent terrorist groups[235]

According to Human Rights Watch, the Shia minority face systematic discrimination from the Saudi government in education, the justice system and especially religious freedom.[236] Restrictions are imposed on the public celebration of Shia festivals such as Ashura and on the Shia taking part in communal public worship.

Moisok
I am not sure they do suppress women myself..it is just in our society women suppress men
and nobodies noticed yet

However I can understand you complaining about the list you put up, I would complain myself if it was here

I still think the best thing we can do
IS TO LEAVE THEM TO GET ON WITH IT

But not when they are in this country !

fair enough Leopard...I agree with that

unfortunately the islamists  are here!! They will follow examples from abroad with their compliance and even fiscal backing - until anyone realises that they will know nothing!!!

London could turn into a Baghdad within 5 years....factions fighting factions

ps  and if you do not think they suppress women look how they behave and dress in public

full wack for the woman in black - full garb   -   geezer in reverse us baseball cap, trendy t shirt , shorts and trainers  - in posh french  cafe by the US embassy I frequent

nah !!! nothing like do as I say or as I do nah!!!  You must be right

western dress ok for guy  but not for the women  ha ha!!!!  I must be so fn racist

I spent years abroad, some in muslim communities and never ever saw them dressed like this!!

You tell me I know fk all - I have just been there - Iran, Malaysia, Singapore etc etc
it is a political movement that includes the control of women

wake up!!!!
!!

If it is true.  Can you imagine training 400 young people in weapons and explosives and then indoctrinating them in politico/religious dogma.!!??

moisok....you remind me of a young punterz....guy used to play poker on BF...you're not him are you?

what I love about it is we have an asian mp on sky banging on about it now  ha ha
talk about smell the vote!!!  not the coffee

Top head to head player ?

i have only played hookey and gin rummy!!???

and I am so fkn old i cant sea 2 type  - and some wood say a good job 2

Was a long shot....he had definite opinions about things

moisok

In Iraq before SH was overthrown, women were allowed to dress western style, so he was forward looking for a Muslim leader

WE overthrew him, so what is happening in Iraq now is OUR FAULT

Pakistan has been destabilised by this never ending war in Afghanistan
The Taliban have now moved to Pakistan, so there is now a strong Islamic fundamentalist movement there
Again it is OUR FAULT for not staying out of Afghanistan is the first place

As for women in Muslim society, they have a different role than men, and this is very formalised
so I do not necessarily see this as the suppression of women per se

In our society men and women are seen as the same and can do the same roles. But there is actually a problem with this
because in fact men ad women are not quite the same. In the 60/70s I thought men and women had it about right, we worked in
partnership.

Nowadays I think we are wrong because women spend most of their time attacking men, saying how bad men are, etc, how women
are all discriminated against....well by men I assume????? Only I have never seen this....so I have no doubt we are giving
women far too much power in our society now....I would like to see a sensible mean here.

Women are equal to men.....and breathhhhhhhh.....get used to it

get used to it...they are our MASTERS now

Men cant go in a pub now and have a smoke and drink...because WOMEN SAY NO

Women are trying to stop men watching port....because WOMEN SAY NO

Men will not be able to say what they want to women on the internet soon...because WOMEN SAY NO

Me will not be allowed to criticize women at work......because WOMEN SAY NO

our society is becoming ever more feminised...far too risk adverse, because WOMEN SAY YES

Women want equal rights at work
but this includes maternity leave, paid child care, hours that must suit them, etc
how is this equality??????????????????????????

Any perks would be balanced by an equal perk for men

...by Law

I don't think men get pregnant?????????????????

We will do whatever we want in our society...a democratic choice

My point is that Muslim society reflects the different roles for men and women
which in fact has been decided by evolution..

Still I could never be a Muslim, but if they want to, why should we bother?????????

In the 60/70s I thought men and women had it about right

Yep, right thru the "Carry on" years.

The Leopard     31 May 14 23:35 

Wiki :

There are some Hindus and Buddhists in Saudi Arabia. Compensation in court cases discriminates against non-Muslims: once fault is determined, a Muslim receives all of the amount of compensation determined, a Jew or Christian half, and all others a sixteenth


Bit strange as there are NO Jews in Saudi Arabia

Yep, right thru the "Carry on" years.

we had it tight then BB

so apart from the stoning ebulgery it sure is fine to be a woman in these countries

gee  !! I thought you were sensible and not an apologist for the legalised suppression of women.

check out the middle east countries not signing off on the UNHCR women's rights bill.
check out the proposed legalising of marrying girls as 8 in - of all places - IRAQ

Are you aware there is a charity which advertises nearly every day on Sky. It is all about child marriages 8 and above (of course not all muslim)

do I need to go on - giving birth to a child in a cell while under the threat of death (now supposedly cancelled) 

criticise authorities in Iran gets you 20 years

oh and lets get on to the honour killings and disappearances in this country
a muslim legal eagle has gone on record that he suspects it is many many more
I will just leave you with that thought.

Moisok
no I would not approve of these
but you must realise that Iraq is a democratically elected Islamic fundamentalist government
voted for by men and women

Persuasion and time is needed for these countries, you cannot impose our values on them by war

As for what goes on in this country, well all women including Muslims have the same rights
and this must be enforced regardless of religion

I can see where you are coming from Moisok, but you cannot just change people overnight
otherwise we are returning to our Empire mentality, we will exploit your country because you are load of savages
I do not agree with this

The question we should be asking
is why are these countries hanging onto to Islam, in fact becoming more Islamic???????

My opinion is that our values are themselves very poor, but we are blind to this
I think we must back off on this idea of universal human values,
We must tolerate differences

Of course we can protest at outrageous things, perhaps even use the boycott weapon
if they are that bad....don't force them though, they will only push back
basic human psychology

but the religion that backs up the politics is one that cannot be criticised and cannot be changed
check it out.

CAN'T CHANGE IT

If anyone tries they kill you.

as I said they choose it, or the majority does, in my opinion

I can see we will argue all day on this moisok, so perhaps we should leave it
I know you are basically a decent bloke,

The question we should be asking
is why are these countries hanging onto to Islam, in fact becoming more Islamic???????

My opinion is that our values are themselves very poor, but we are blind to this
I think we must back off on this idea of universal human values,
We must tolerate differences

Of course we can protest at outrageous things, perhaps even use the boycott weapon
if they are that bad....don't force them though, they will only push back
basic human psychology

Read the Quran (good version here) - http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/

Educate yourself on the history and story of Muhammad (The Message is a good film to watch)

They are hanging onto Islam because they believe the Quran to be the word of God - revealed to Muhammad via the Angel Gabriel. (Muhammad could not read or write, he was illiterate).

If you have any questions i'll try to answer to what I know from my own understanding.

Did Mohammed have sex with a 9 year old girl?

well even if he did I'm not grassing on him they are nutters you know

Wiki :
From the 20th century onwards, a common point of contention has been Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, who was six or seven when betrothed to Muhammad and nine, or according to al-Tabari, ten, when the marriage was consummated. American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity." Colin Turner, a professor of Islamic studies, states that since such marriages between an older man and a young girl were customary among the Bedouins, Muhammad's marriage would not have been considered improper by his contemporaries. Moreover, Karen Armstrong, the British author on comparative religion, has affirmed that "There was no impropriety in Muhammad's marriage to Aisha. Marriages conducted in absentia to seal an alliance were often contracted at this time between adults and minors who were even younger than Aisha. This practice continued in Europe well into the early modern period."

Critics such as Baptist pastor Jerry Vines and the Dutch Party for Freedom leader Geert Wilders have cited the age of Aisha to denounce Muhammad for having had sex with a nine-year-old, referring to Muhammad as a pedophile.Pandit Chamupati wrote that Aisha was about the same age as Muhammad’s granddaughter, and a better way for Muhammad to make Abu Bakr (Aisha'a father) a relative would have been to adopt Aisha as his own daughter and marry her off.

as they continue to do today - check out Iraq's proposed laws of marriage to 8 year olds.

Did Mohammed have sex with a 9 year old girl?


I don't know.

I'm just trying to help with my own factual understanding of the region and history in reply to his post.

I think you will find values were different in those days
in Europe as well

Anyway you achieve nothing by attacking a religion, except make it stronger
that is because a religion is not an entirely rational belief...it is a psychological need in us

but feel free to go ahead, won't change anything

what do you suggest moisok...we invade Iraq again???????????????

all this shows to me is the complete ridiculousness of what we trying to achieve
we seem to be sending them back to the stone age!

Sadly we have also left behind a terrible civil war in Syria, which we can do nothing about
because Russia insist on holding Assad up
We cannot risk going head to head with Russia

Christians are being attacked in Pakistan because of our interference in Afghanistan
and we hear the appalling news a woman has been stoned to death..this sort of punishment
should have disappeared hundreds of years ago

Sunnis are the majority in Saudi Arabia, as I said before ( for those new to thread ) ....mistake by OP

So ebulGery, if Islam one day becomes dominant in the UK and Shariah Law is voted in would you that's fine because adults voted for it?

If that is what the majority want...yes
that is what DEMOCRACY is all about

are you saying people have no right of say in how they choose to live???????

So you would happily live in a society which allows slavery, stoning of women, wife beating cutting of limb, non muslims being humiliated as second class citizens where they must pay jizya(higher tax rate for non believers)?
Muslims are brainwashed and have no choice but to believe these laws are from God. 
People have a right to believe and live how they want something Islam does not allow!!
For example according to Islamic law apostates should be executed, how the heck is that democracy?
Islam is the complete opposite of democracy and once in control there's no going back.

no I would not
but if the majority of people wanted it, I would have to

who has the right to take away the sort of society people want??????????

The point I am making..is if people want to be Muslim
then that is their right...not everybody has the same values

why should we worry..if that is what they want??????????????????

My question was regards the UK.
Regardless there is no democracy when it comes to Islam.
It is a political ideology which does not allow freedom of thought and expression.

This is what Islam is about:

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'.

Tt's about world domination.  It began with violence and it will end with violence.
Look at sunni and shiites muslims who kill each other by the thousands each year.
Muslims complain about the west, but more muslims are killed by muslims then by anyone else!!

formboy

they do not get it and it is too late even for this country

already here and dominating a few inner city areas

as you say - muslims do not have a choice -

scrub that - they do -  stay a muslim or ..........

ha ha!!!!

All Imams should be deported if not born here.

moisok, political correctness had gone too far.
Islam is protected and treated differently by politicians and the media.
Why? Because muslims will retaliate with threats and violence just as their prophet did over 1400 hundred years ago.
Islam has managed to spread and become dominant throughout history through violence and fear.  Today in the 21st century it
is no difference.  People who run this country are nothing but cowards and this country will one day pay the price where democracy will become
nothing but history.  I still believe there is time but something must be done soon before it's too late.

what do you propose formboy, kill them all, it worked for adolf

We invaded Afghanistan, We invaded Iraq, We attacked Libya
yet it is they who are violent , not us

Iran threw out the Americans and voted in an Islamic Fundamentalist state,
Once we forced democracy on Iraq, they voted in an Islamic Fundamentalist state,
one we forced democracy on Libya they voted in an Islamic Fundamentalist state
Egypt voted in an Islamic Fundamentalist state, since overthrown by the military
Afghanistan is a fairly Islamic Fundamentalist state, just not as fundamentalist as the Taliban
Pakistan is becoming an Islamic Fundamentalist state, their own government is trying stop this

so what does this tell this,or should do,  they like being Muslims, it is their own choice

so why does it matter to us
none of these countries have the weapons to threaten us

As for Muslims in our country, unfortunately that is our own fault,
we have voted in successive governments since about the early 1950's who have a deep hatred of the indigenous population of this country
they want everybody in the world to come and live here and replace us, they bought their religion with them

Talking of Hitler, Islam and nazism have plenty in common.
Of course the answer isn't to kill them, nor do I suggest the wars were justified.  But they are a red herring as Islam is about
world domination regardless of any invasions or attacks.
Islam is a political ideology that once gets a hold will never let go, unless all out war occurs.
So anyone who favours democracy must by default be anti Islam.
Unfortunately this country has let things get out of hand and reversing the damage won't be easy, however
there measures that can be made to halt the rapid spread of Islam.

Here are some suggestions of what could be done:


http://libertygb.org.uk/v1/index.php/home/root/news-libertygb/6208-how-should-we-remove-islam-from-britain-and-the-west

Well I had a look at that site formboy.......it does seem a little paranoiac to me

As I have said our Muslim problem?, it is related to our immigration problem, difficult to correct that, although
we should not make it worse

How many of our white indigenous population are converting to Islam???....my guess is not many, so in a sense it is a by product
of immigration.

I would find most of those suggestions unacceptable in a civilised society.
Although I think we must retain our status as a Christian society which is run by secular law.
and while we allow freedom of religion, they must abide by these rules.

So then you can limit Muslim extremist and Sharia law etc, and perhaps bring in some of the measures you suggest,
but by no means all.

Anybody who wishes to live this rather harsh extreme of Islam, cannot do it here, well not in public.
In that way we are being tolerant not stupid, but again this is the fault of our politicians I have to say.

A lot of countries and religions seek to expand their cause, worldwide
including I regret to say the USA, we need less of this from everybody.

I still maintain countries have a right to choose for themselves.

So I expect our Muslims to be moderate and discrete
I wish out gays would do the same

especially the women, eh, Ebulgery?

I'm not saying I agree with all their suggestions, but some of them are viable.  Islam has double standards, muslims demand special treatment but they have zero tolerance to the beliefs of others.  This country is ideal for them and allows them to exploit the foolishness of our politicians.

perhaps
My suggestion is we reaffirm our status as a Christian society, by law
never give this up...or we would be stupid

I know very few actually go to Church or live by Christian standards
but it enables us to limit any idea of Muslims have of expansionism
but I give them the right to be Muslims, but they must be moderate and discrete

If Muslims countries want to be Muslim, it matters little to me, it is their country after all

If we make it absolutely clear we are a Christian society, this is a clear boundary, they cannot cross

what we failed to do with gays I regret, when we gave them marriage,..that should have been their boundary

It is all these stupid equalities in all areas, which is causing us problems
in this case religion...very stupid, we will pay for this

For example according to Islamic law apostates should be executed

Islamic Law is only interpretation from the Quran and Hadiths.

There is no formal actual instruction of Islamic Law, layed out.

Several extremeists believe in that for apostates, but the majority do not.

but I give them the right to be Muslims, but they must be moderate and discrete

What does this mean?

How many of our white indigenous population are converting to Islam???....my guess is not many, so in a sense it is a by product
of immigration.

This is an important point - and it is one the UKIP types don't like to answer because it completely check mates them.

The number is actually quite high, and the majority of them infact females.

This is why Islam can't be stopped. It's not a cultural force or a product of immigration. It's something else.

The number is actually quite high, and the majority of them infact females.

that is interesting considering the constant complaint I hear is they discriminate against women Stringer

but they must be moderate and discrete

well not a lot tbh, just leave the rest of us alone,
They can have their Mosques, there does in the park, etc
but when they start demanding things like Sharia law, etc....no, because we are a not a Muslim society
they are abusing our law on religious freedoms, we need to check them on this

This is why Islam can't be stopped. It's not a cultural force or a product of immigration. It's something else.

yes a religion

Well I have said we need to reaffirm our Christianity...but I do not want religious war
this is utterly ridiculous, surely we can live with each other...it is harder for us because they are here
but when we are in different countries...surely that is enough

well not a lot tbh, just leave the rest of us alone,
They can have their Mosques, there does in the park, etc
but when they start demanding things like Sharia law, etc....no, because we are a not a Muslim society
they are abusing our law on religious freedoms, we need to check them on this

I don't think anyone but heretics and outcasts are demanding sharia law.

Most Muslims i know are professionals, doctors, lawyers, surveyors etc, they all pray 5 times a day and believe the Quran is the word of God.

These are the people I think of when i hear Islam and so should everyone else - not mugs like Anjem Choudry

The law to execute apostates comes from authentic hadeeths.
These hadeeths form the sunnah of the 'prophet'.
Anjem Choudrayand and the like follow Islam the way it's supposed to be, most moderate muslims are completely ignorant of their religion.

You can't reason people who think they know it all

formboy  • June 5, 2014 1:41 AM BST

The law to execute apostates comes from authentic hadeeths.
These hadeeths form the sunnah of the 'prophet'.
Anjem Choudrayand and the like follow Islam the way it's supposed to be, most moderate muslims are completely ignorant of their religion.

The problem with this...is when was it written????????????????????????
if it was written about 700 AD, actually we don't live by those values any more
At that time anyone who was living as a Muslim in this country would have been declared an Infidel and killed on those grounds
I don't think Muslims living in this country now would want the rest of us to adopt the values we had then
there would be mass slaughter

We are now living in the 21st century, all religions in this country must abide by secular law

It still happens in islamic states, where sharia law is rule.
You can be executed for openly having blasphemous views.
Unfortunately moderate muslims have no say on sharia law, once it's in place
they will only follow.  How can they go against their Prophet and God?

formboy thinks he is an Islamic scholar

I am well aware of the ancient scholars and their tafsirs.
I have studied them as well as the Koran and hadeeths and I also know how modern scholars deceive the West with their interpretation.

Don't mean to be rude but you have no idea what you're talking about.

There are students that study for 10 years full time in Medina and they still are not qualified to interpret hadiths.

What is there to study about a fairy tale written 1400 years ago .

Ignorance is bliss

Well what Islamic countries do in their own countries do in their own countries is their own affair

In our country all religions have to abide by secular law, there are no exceptions, nor should there be

People in our society are expected to interpret religion..just because Genesis is written in the bible
does not mean all Christians are obliged to believe this word for word....
The same must apply to all other religious books.....they were of their time

A law abiding Muslim in this country need not trouble us, nor should we trouble them, just use a bit of common sense

Don't worry Stringer, you're not being rude just idiotic.
Ancient scholars were experts in classical arabic and dedicated their lives to studying the Koran and hadeeths, therefore their tafsirs are invaluable.
Todays modern western scholars like to promote a more peaceful and tolerant interpretation of the Koran.
Unfortunately Epicurean, this silly fairytale is a bit like chinese whisper.  As time goes on the more ludicrous the interpretations become.

ebulGery, you may find this debate interesting regarding sharia law in the west between anjem choudary and david wood:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtOaFvsbFbA

There are 4 parts to the debate mentioned above.

Well I watched first 10 minutes...will watch it all later

He does not like gambling

His is an extreme interpretation of Islam, Sharia law
Like Christianity, Muslim has many shades, I doubt whether may Muslims follow Sharia law themselves in this country
but discussions like this are fine

But there does seem a lot of ignorance as regards Muslims to me
They do not threaten us, they do not have the power to, do they, the West has all the power..
people who claim it, are not telling the truth

I plead for tolerance and understanding on both sides here, that is all
I see our world becoming more extreme, more violent,

I think our own values in this country are poor....I would not inflict them on anyone
Sadly we are in decline in this country, we seem not to have recovered from WWII, we are lost now
we do not know what we are anymore, our politicians give this country away.

1just my opinion

There are still a lot of decent people in this country, we just don't listen to them
Our soldiers are brave, but they don't fight for us, they fight for the Americans
who to be frank...have a soddin great army of their own, so why?

Worse still we fight in unjust wars, invading Afghanistan and Iraq, it grieves me to see it
and the way our politicians humiliate and degrade themselves for the Americans....it is so cringe worthy

The Americans told us to get out in the Middle East in 1956, when we took back the Suez Canal
so what on earth are we doing back there????????????????????????????????????????????????

This has caused unrest with the Muslim population of our own country, of course it would, so their young
men are open to extremists. I urge them not to listen, and if they really need to fight, well there is Syria isn't there?
go there.

What you must understand is sharia law is gods law as far as Islam is concerned.  An extremist is the best of muslims according to their prophet.  Moderate muslims are merely sheep who will have no say in the matter if the UK ended up an Islamic state one day.  They will just go along with it because as a muslim they must accept sharia law is ordained by Allah and his prophet.  Many moderate muslims have not actually read the Koran or hadeeths in any detail.
So whilst I agree many muslims would not necessarily choose sharia, under Islamic control they won't have a choice!

I see your point
but I still see it as interpretation
for a start....does any GOD actually exist??????????????????????????

To threaten us, one must have power, they do not have it, we do
so why this Islamaphobia????????????????????

If we ever end up as an Islamic state,
It will be because:
1 of our self destructive  immigration societies
2 our own values would have become so poor, we actually decide Sharia law is better
3 the abandonment of Christianity

Some white woman are converting to Islam, not many white men I think, I do not see an immediate threat
I think the woman do it, because they want a masterful man
Our own men, would get a load of abuse, if we ever try to tell a women what to do

societies sb policies

WENT TO THE CASINO LAST NIGHT,THE PLACE WAS FULL OF MUSLIMS