Calling all Scots

i voted labour - like all scots that are not up their kilts. In the last fifty years at least - labour wins in Scotland is usually assured unless they get really pissed and vote SNP.
Yet Scotland is Ruled over by - Thatcher, John Major and David Cameron.
Democracy in action.

Stolen from footy forum....

[   This image is no longer available.   ]

oor wullie for king

YES !! it's the only way

If you vote NO Scotland will be the only country ever not to vote yes to independence.

There will be no more singing Flower of Scotland with heads held high.

The world will laugh at us.

Braveheart will be a label of ridicule...

Mel Gibson will claim it was a comedy

Pretty much the only problem I foresee with independence is sorting out the party-wall agreement.

Sounds complicated. Luckily my name is Brian.

so's my wife

No

Socialists and the SNP go on about being ruled by Tories, it
never occurs to them that Tories and Liberals sometines have
to put up with Labour Govts they didn't vote for.

Scotland/England game a few weeks after vote

will have the p^ss taken out of us,if we vote NO

good point SD, except the Labour governments you speak of were at least elected by a majority of the voters of your own country...

Not quite, the closest we've ever come to that in recent times is in 1955 when 49.7% of those who voted voted Tory, of a 77% turnout. They're always voted in on the biggest minority, which grates.

Union of parliaments  came about because Scotland was effectively
bankrupt, no oil in those days. Salmond used to cite Ireland and Iceland
as prosperous small countries, needless to say that's forgotten and its
Norway and Sweden he idolises. I'm not an expert on Scandanavian politics
but I gather they are nearer to Thatcherism than Socialism.

Scotland/England game a few weeks after vote

will have the p^ss taken out of us,if we vote NO

By saying what? And who gives a **** if they do? it's a football game FFS.

Shrewd_dude




 


     Shrewd_dude   






  20 Aug 14 12:56 
Joined:


  12 May 05 
    | Topic/replies: 2,722  | Blogger: Shrewd_dude's blog   



No


Maybe shrewder than I thought.

@TTOs
What about the vast area of Scotland that is predominantly LibDem? Should they seek independence from the rest of Scotland based on your argument?

Ken M, I did say the majority of the voters not the electorate.

akabaula, there is every chance that Scotland will have PR for future elections - unlike the UK - so even LibDems could have representation at Holyrood.

"Ken M, I did say the majority of the voters not the electorate." - and you'd still be wrong.

Ken M is correct, Labour have never had a majority of the vote in a Scottish election, the closest party to do that was the Tories in 1955. (And that's including the SNP in the 2011 election who, contrary to rubbish on the internet, did NOT get a majority of the votes, and what they did get was on a very low turnout against a useless Labour party).

Indeed in the UK election in Scotland in 2010 the LD + Tories, who together form the governing party of they UK, achieved 465,471 + 412,855 = 878,326 votes, clearly not far off at all from Labours 1,035,528, but this was under FPTP that threw up wildly unrepresentative number of seats. I suggest you digest those figures for a second.

Not so you'd know the above facts given the hysterical crying of the "poor Scotland doesn't get the party it voted for" from grievance merchants who peddle some myth that the coalition had 5 voters in Scotland, it very clearly did not. For these 878,326 voters, > 85% of the number who voted Labour, the party they voted for DID enter government. It is not as remotely "unfair" as the b/s being peddled by the separatists, and as akabula points out, no less unfair than the people in LD seats getting the neanderthals from Labour every election because of people voting for more handouts. Scotland has a majority SNP government, but the majority didn't vote for them either. That's what happens with non ideal systems.

The 'vast area' of Scotland that is Lib Dem of course has far fewer people per sq m, therefore it is exagerated on the map. If over a few centuries that area of Scotland develops it's own legal and education systems and becomes in effect a country within a Scottish political union then it would be a good comparison to Scotland within the UK now.

ttip

That's what happens with non ideal systems.

The Holyrood system was designed to prevent domination by any single party. Juggle the numbers any way you want (and you will), but the SNP majority in 2010 was supposed to be as unlikely as to be impossible.

One Tory from 59 Westminster seats, yet a Tory govt  - that's democracy?

It's a curious quirk of voter history, but based on the party getting the biggest % share of the vote:
Scotland has got the Westminster govt it wanted in 8 of the last 12 elections
and England has got the Westminster govt it wanted in 8 of the last 12 elections.

That's not a bad ratio for a country with perhaps one-sixth of the pop'n.

I'm grateful that the Scottish MPs voted the way they did in the 2013 debate on whether we should directly support the anti-Assad rebellion in Syria
Outcome: 285/272 against intervention
Without Scottish MPs: 240/258 in favour of intervention.

Scotland: we'd like you to stay, but we should probably show a little more appreciation of you as you've saved us from ourselves at least twice recently.

Cliff Richard signed a letter demanding Scotland should stay......


What does that tell you?

*open letter

demanding or demeaning?

stewarty b 20 Aug 14 15:50

Shrewd_dude 20 Aug 14 12:56


No


Maybe shrewder than I thought.

Of course I am you muppet.

Better to be a muppet than a retard.

I implore the people living in Scotland (please be aware that not all people who live in Scotland and can vote are Scottish) to vote "yes".
And I'm sure (gut feel from 60+ years of life, not from asking them) I speak for a lot of English people.

That's not a bad ratio for a country with perhaps one-sixth of the pop'n.

Eh? One sixth bongo?

Fair point Alias, one to nine might be more realistic as the ratio of residents of SCO to ENG.

In 2011 the ratio was closer to 1 : 10.7  SCO to ENG

(5.25 million Scotland, 56 million England)

according to UK office of National Statistics.

I haven't even given William Wallace a second thought,  ever.. let leave alone the last 700 years of history....Poll Tax is immaterial to me - syphoned oil to fund Westminster boom of 80's?

Wow! That's a hell of a life you've had TheBetterBettor...............

I am not Scottish but if I were, I would vote Yes.

How on earth are you ever going to know what you are capable of if you don't at least try.

Fair point.........Gamblers United.

None of the Scottish people I know are voting yes.

All the English people who live in my locality and there are quite a lot for a small place, are voting YES, like eternaloptimist plans to do. Only Scots that I know who are voting NO, and that includes 2 of my brothers, are ones that are married to English women. Perhaps they think that voting YES is an anti English vote which is complete and utter nonsense.

Scottish  people!- nearly as bad as Irish people (not quite though)!

What do you mean by that racist comment? If it wasn`t for the Scots, the world would still be living in the Dark Ages.

You'll know the Scots that are voting yes because they are constantly banging on about fearties, ambition, once in a lifetime etc. etc

Bad in what way, dewey?

You'll know the Scots that are voting yes because they are constantly banging on about fearties, ambition, once in a lifetime etc. etc

Whereas the unionists believe all the lies and disinformation in what passes for the printed media. Stand by for the real dirty tricks in the final week of campaigning. Nothing will surprise me from the likes of the Daily Mail.

All the Scots I've ever met (and there have been many although I've never lived in Scotland)are decent hard-working people.

Does anyone in Scotland read the Daily Mail Alias?

They are not capable of thinking logically, and should not be allowed the vote.

Thread now officialy GBB (Gone Beyond Banter)

scots are self sufficient in electricity exporting excess down south. Even building secondary structures/dams to supply England with more power from hydro electic sources.

oil rich country.

fishing waters.

whisky makers make £5 billion a year. Almost as much as the oil.

------------------

taxation of their businesses generate 99 percent of their income. they send this to westminster. they then send back 100 percent of what they spend. The english then say ... look we are giving you more than you take in. we are propping you up. But they forgot to mention the oil revenues? 1,600 billion so far. nice accountancy.

Independence is fine but that is not what they want. They will continue to send thousands of young people who can't get work
to England just as Ireland has done and claim everythings fine.

Does anyone in Scotland read the Daily Mail Alias?

A few misguided souls Foinavon, mostly very senior citizens I suspect. It labels itself The SCOTTISH Daily Mail, but it's about as Scottish as Eton. I predict a very personal attack on A Salmond and/or N Sturgeon close 18/9. Be surprised if I'm wrong.

That's fine then lfc1971. High unemployment/low wage economy fits right in with fascists like you. You must be very pleased.

A few misguided souls Foinavon, mostly very senior citizens I suspect. It labels itself The SCOTTISH Daily Mail, but it's about as Scottish as Eton. I predict a very personal attack on A Salmond and/or N Sturgeon close 18/9. Be surprised if I'm wrong.

The people I see picking it up in my local supermarket are also of the older generation. Although I too am from that generation, wouldn't be seen dead with it. Awful rag.

I'm cracking on myself Foinavon, now well in bus pass land! Like you, I wouldn't even pick up the Mail, with or without a disguise.

Whereas the unionists believe all the lies and disinformation in what passes for the printed media. Stand by for the real dirty tricks in the final week of campaigning. Nothing will surprise me from the likes of the Daily Mail.

I think you just proved my point. Implying anybody voting no is an idiot being hoodwinked.  There are a lot of undecided people or those who aren't steadfast in either camp who I imagine are put off by the quite aggressive, mocking tone many yes voters adopt.

On the whole those in favour of maintaining the union seem more sympatico.
They are romantics and indi idealists really. Yes voters do seem the type who
know the pri ce of everything and the value of nothing, aggressive and charmless.

Whereas the unionists believe all the lies and disinformation in what passes for the printed media. Stand by for the real dirty tricDoes anyone in Scotland read the Daily Mail Alias?

A few misguided souls Foinavon, mostly very senior citizens I suspect. It labels itself The SCOTTISH Daily Mail, but it's about as Scottish as Eton. I predict a very personal attack on A Salmond and/or N Sturgeon close 18/9. Be surprised if I'm wrong. ks in the final week of campaigning. Nothing will surprise me from the likes of the Daily Mail.

Nothing to worry about then Alias so why bring it up?

Shrewd_dude, I'm sure you're aware of what the Daily Mail et al are capable of.



So akabula is a MAIL reader

Themightymac has made this fantastic observation: 'All the English people who live in my locality and there are quite a lot for a small place, are voting YES, like eternaloptimist plans to do. Only Scots that I know who are voting NO, and that includes 2 of my brothers, are ones that are married to English women. Perhaps they think that voting YES is an anti English vote which is complete and utter nonsense.'

This in no way affects the outcome of the vote, but I've noticed this too, and would love to see a poll breakdown of the English voters who live in Scotland as I suspect without evidence from yougov that the majority of the English who live in Scotland want to live in an independent Scotland, while the majority of Scots who live in Scotland favour the Union by about 3:2.

This is generally true of the English throughout the ages - if they've fecked off from England they don't want to be regarded as English any more. Those intellectual adventurous and extreme religious types that went to the USA in the 18th century voted through the gun to reject the dominant mother country. The Canadians and Australians and a few other former colonies have a lot of english heritage and rejected englishness at the ballot box afaik. But they keep the Queen as she's a monarch for the ages and a top commonwealth piece of totty who shares the love and goodwill of commonwealthness. She isn't liked because of englishness. She isn't that english anyway to be fair.

Some people ask what does it mean to be english? A belief in fair play, tolerance, or support for underdogs perhaps. It's a tough question, but take the englander out of england and it's odds on he or she doesn't want to be thought of as english any more. Apart from retired public sector workers in Spain. There's always exceptions.

I reckon if the ex-english went to Northern Ireland en masse, then NI would be out of the Union before you could say Giants Causeway, such is their tendency to escape the clutches of the country they came from.

Generalising majorly of course, smiles.

You can not make comparisons between England now and 100  or even 50 years ago. Simply because England
today is such a major disaster zone the English jn Scotland are hoping Scotland can break away and do things
differently, better. In a way they hope Scotland canbe like it was and England once was.
This is why it appeals to the English in Scotland to vote yes, it makes some sense.

It is really a vote against the frightening mess. England has become

lfc1971
lfc1971 22 Aug 14 13:06 Joined: 06 Nov 11 | Topic/replies: 3,682 | Blogger: lfc1971's blog
They are not capable of thinking logically, and should not be allowed the vote.

Wow

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=847910358553565&set=vb.100000038277260&type=2&theater

^ welcome to England.

bongo, in my recent experience, most English residents in Scotland able to vote will vote No, although I would say that roughly the over fifties would make up most of that number.

Foinavon 22 Aug 14 13:02 Joined: 11 Oct 00 | Topic/replies: 1,399 | Blogger: Foinavon's blog
All the Scots I've ever met (and there have been many although I've never lived in Scotland)are decent hard-working people.

Does anyone in Scotland read the Daily Mail Alias?
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lfc1971
lfc1971 22 Aug 14 13:06 Joined: 06 Nov 11 | Topic/replies: 3,683 | Blogger: lfc1971's blog
They are not capable of thinking logically, and should not be allowed the vote.


I agree lfc1971. In fact I'd have all Daily Mail readers sectioned, just like you've been.

If Scottyland goes Independent, will the boss man deport all the grevilles back to England?

far more Hamiltons than Grevilles.

@ Alias: most English residents in Scotland able to vote will vote No

I have to concede your point. Which makes my previous argument bollox, no matter how well written.
Yougov captured 177 voters classed as UK-born but not Scottish born in their last poll on this - the %s were Yes 22, No 61 with the rest being won't vote or don't know.
( . http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/nc8vsimg82/Tim... )
The youngest want YES as do almost half of all men, while the elderly, the women, and the non-UK borns are more likely to be going for No.

elderly women & foriegners makes sense

Refreshingly honest bongo.

One other angle: some English I have spoken to appear to be worried that if independence is realised, then any perceived anti Englishness will increase. Personally I think that if/where it exists, it's more likely to disappear after Yes/independence.