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Dobbo
19 Jan 14 22:42
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Date Joined: 11 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 3,128 | Blogger: Dobbo's blog
for the terminally ill should be legalised.?
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Report ebulGery January 19, 2014 11:28 PM GMT
definitely
Report kenny mann January 19, 2014 11:31 PM GMT
can of worms.
Report ebulGery January 19, 2014 11:34 PM GMT
the trouble is nobody trusts the relatives
we think if somebody goes into Hospital for an in growing toenail
the moment the nurse turns her back, the relatives would have a pillow over their face

bit I feel it must come
especially as we likely to have too many old people(including meBlush)
Report breadnbutter January 19, 2014 11:38 PM GMT
fck me you must have some family ...Laugh
Report MisterBadger January 19, 2014 11:45 PM GMT
I'm all for it in principle, but the sad reality is that it wouldn't be safe  Sad
Report ebulGery January 19, 2014 11:46 PM GMT
Laugh breadnbutter
Report Capt__F January 19, 2014 11:53 PM GMT
relatives holding the guns the prob
Report MisterBadger January 20, 2014 12:01 AM GMT
exactly capt
Report ebulGery January 20, 2014 12:17 AM GMT
difficult though

but yes, if someone with some money or an expensive property is in a nursing home

then the relatives would see their inheritance diminishing the longer this person lives

if assisted dying was an option, I suspect they may well pressure the person into taking this option

morals seem to fall in the face of hard cash

on the other hand, we have people in pain and often degraded, cannot control their own bowels, etc

who genuinely want to die, if their is no hope of them getting better

to keep them alive is in fact quite cruel

a tricky problem?
Report PatraTheCat January 20, 2014 12:19 AM GMT
Do you lot really think that there's such a high chance that your families will conspire to murder you that it outweighs the comfort of having a easy, painless opt-out of life, if and when you choose to use it?
Report ebulGery January 20, 2014 12:20 AM GMT
yesSad
Report ebulGery January 20, 2014 12:21 AM GMT
tbh I don't Patra, but it would occur in some cases, that is the problem
Report PatraTheCat January 20, 2014 12:26 AM GMT
But surely it would require the consent of the person to die in all but the most exceptional cases (sudden comas etc.). I mean, surely the dying person would have to sign consent or have signed the decision-making powers over to the family. So it would really require quite an advanced plot by the family.

I feel a lot better about my personal situation now. I mean, I don't have the best relationship with my family but I'm almost positive they wouldn't actually conspire to murder me.
Report ebulGery January 20, 2014 12:37 AM GMT
a scenario patra

a rich relative is terminally ill, they are not expected to live a month, they go into an expensive nursing home

but 6 months later they are still alive

this is where relatives start to deceive themselves, we need that person's money, we have a property we like,

we have to think of the children, we have to think of our own lives..the money is better coming to us, than going

to a nursing home

They visit the sick relative, and they start, bemoaning their money problems in front of the relative, the relative feels guilty

and thinks I had better end this, they need the money..

it is that simple

yes a minority of relatives would do this, but you see the problem

although I think eventually we will have to allow assisted dying
Report ebulGery January 20, 2014 12:39 AM GMT
I cant say whether your family want to murder you PatraLaugh
Report PatraTheCat January 20, 2014 12:49 AM GMT
I'd say "Look, you lot. Anyone who tries to murder me is straight out of the will, no second chances. And sneak me in some more whisky."
Report MisterBadger January 20, 2014 12:55 AM GMT
tbh I don't Patra, but it would occur in some cases, that is the problem

exactly - it's the same as the death penalty question, it's better that 100 guilty people get off than one innocent person is hanged
Report yeahyeahwhatever January 20, 2014 1:17 AM GMT
I think the absolute worst scenario to be in must be to be paralysed from the neck down and to want to die, but to be unable to take your own life... for everyone else, if you want to die - just stop moaning about it and just get on with it!

In the first scenario doctors should be allowed to assist - absolutely they should, after all, you can be damn sure that doctors don't die like the rest of normal folk.  As soon as their suffering becomes too much too bear it's a mightily convenient heart attack and the forms go through no questions asked.

As to how you do it, hmmmm that's the question isn't it, something quick ideally, I think i'd like to do a parachute jump but without opening the parachute.  Has to be pretty much 100% certainty of death and it's about as close to flying as humans can get - messy of course and someone has to come and scrap you up... but then if you could do it in a remote area you could just be left there to naturally decompose and feed the landscape!  Much cheaper than a funeral too - now that's a total ripoff.
Report MisterBadger January 20, 2014 1:29 AM GMT
^ thanks for your intelligent contribution to what was a potentially intelligent debate
Report ebulGery January 20, 2014 1:41 AM GMT
I would agree
that is one scenario, none of us would like to be in, and assisted dying should on offer

Of course with computers, one could have one placed in front of ones face, and probably operate it
even if just by eye movement...that would give us something to do
we could bet all day long, read books and study...but not everybody would want to do this
I think we would find life incredibly boring...even with a permanent supply of Guinness on tap
in the end we would want to end it
Report ebulGery January 20, 2014 1:44 AM GMT
the desire to physically do something would overwhelming

difficult to argue against assisted dying in this case
Report yeahyeahwhatever January 20, 2014 2:47 AM GMT
MisterBadger 
re:^ thanks for your intelligent contribution to what was a potentially intelligent debate


Shocked bloomin' cheek, that was an intelligent contribution! If you want to kill yourself just stop waffling on about it and just do it, it's only those who are physically unable to do it who have a problem - everyone else is just attention seeking.


now, be a good little badger and just come into this nice cage and take a deep breath... Devil
Report Steamship January 20, 2014 10:31 AM GMT
imo There should be a fr that we are filling in every 2 years along with a thorough health check this should start from the age of 18.

Questions as
Should you become completely paralysed would you wish to end your life
Should you be diagnosed with dementia etc

Then it is up to the person before they get ill and nothing to do with the family if a form has not been filled in then nothing can be done.
Report MisterBadger January 20, 2014 12:48 PM GMT
bloomin' cheek, that was an intelligent contribution!

fair enough yyw, it was the other stuff about scraping people up and funeral rip offs I was on about - alcohol-assisted post on my part Sad
Report MisterBadger January 20, 2014 12:49 PM GMT
btw, the badger cull is finnish, in case you hadn't heard  Wink
Report yeahyeahwhatever January 20, 2014 5:57 PM GMT
re: btw, the badger cull is finnish, in case you hadn't heard


they only told YOU that in the hope they could flush you out into the open... Silly
Report u want some January 20, 2014 6:03 PM GMT
hey dobbo hednesford are going well
Report GAZO January 20, 2014 6:06 PM GMT
as much has I think it should happen you can almost hear mr no win no fee licking his lips about this becoming legal
Report SlippyBlue January 20, 2014 10:58 PM GMT
I have typed out two replies to this but deleted both times. I'll send this one though.

My poor Dad got a truly wicked illness in mesothelioma, he really didn't deserve what happened to him and if there was a button to press to spare his agony I would have taken the responsibility and done it.
Report Dobbo January 20, 2014 11:09 PM GMT
Nobody deserves it Slippy. Why should we watch our loved ones die in  pain. Why should any of us suffer horribly when the end is a tortured certainty.Its some fcked up morality when we cant help the ones we love in their hour of need.
Report Do wah Diddy January 21, 2014 12:07 AM GMT
THERE WILL ALSO BE ALOT OF OLD PEOPLE WHO DONT WONT TO DIE,BUT WHO WOULD DIE BECAUSE THEY THINK THEIR A BURDEN ON THEIR FAMILY
Report call me a taxi January 21, 2014 12:16 AM GMT
It's a strange world where you can be 100% fit and sent off to die in a war, but if you manage to get yourself 99% killed, the government frown at finishing you off when you get home.
Report Dobbo January 21, 2014 12:18 AM GMT
Rubbish. The bill that will go through parliament in May is to give people with a terminal illness the right to end their lives. If thats not a basic human right wtf is?
Report ebulGery January 21, 2014 12:45 AM GMT
THERE WILL ALSO BE ALOT OF OLD PEOPLE WHO DONT WONT TO DIE,BUT WHO WOULD DIE BECAUSE THEY THINK THEIR A BURDEN ON THEIR FAMILY

nail on the head there methinks, do wah diddy
Report ebulGery January 21, 2014 12:48 AM GMT
there is also an opposite problem

some families want their old people kept alive at all costs, and disprove of doctors wishing to ease them out of this world

I think the 'Liverpool Pathway' was ended, because of this
Report ebulGery January 21, 2014 12:49 AM GMT
I believe in assisted dying...

we should accept it, and deal with problems with it, as they come up
Report ebulGery January 21, 2014 12:53 AM GMT
there is another, some people are born with great handicaps in life, but they still want to live

they are frightened someone may decide for them your life is not worth living,so we will assist you dying

and again, they may feel they are a burden, they require a lot of support, so must agree
Report Dobbo January 21, 2014 12:55 AM GMT
Lets start at the right end of the argument. You are dying of pancreatic cancer.You are in agony. Your death is certain.The agony will last a week, two weeks, three weeks, three months?You are vomiting your own feaces.
No doctor can cure you but he can help you by supplying the drug that you can use of your own volition to end your pain.
Its a no brainer. Support he assisted dying bill. Who knows? In 10 or 20 years time you may be truly thankful that you did.
Report ebulGery January 21, 2014 12:57 AM GMT
I hope the bill is passed

but will require a lot of monitoring I feel

not all cases are as clear as you have just outlined Dobbo
Report ebulGery January 21, 2014 12:59 AM GMT
I would hope the option is open to me Dobbo

in most cases, not all, Doctors can control the pain

it is the degradation which gets to a lot of people, cannot control ones own bowels, etc
Report Dobbo January 21, 2014 1:03 AM GMT
You are right of course ebu but we must start at the bottom line (see Slippys post). All of us risk this horrific end to our lives and it can be prevented. Caution is needed but it is a basic human right to die on our own terms surely?
Report ebulGery January 21, 2014 1:03 AM GMT
yes
Report ebulGery January 21, 2014 1:10 AM GMT
it is just, we have to be sure, it is the own person's decision to end their life, which I think is a right

and they have not been influenced into it by others, that will be the opposition this bill will face in

parliament, I feel, but I hope it is passed
Report alabaster crashes down January 21, 2014 7:43 AM GMT
lets start at the right end of the argument. You are dying of pancreatic cancer.You are in agony. Your death is certain.The agony will last a week, two weeks, three weeks, three months?You are vomiting your own feaces.
No doctor can cure you but he can help you by supplying the drug that you can use of your own volition to end your pain.
Its a no brainer. Support he assisted dying bill. Who knows? In 10 or 20 years time you may be truly thankful that you did.


in this case there would already be an assisted dying process in the form of the Liverpool Care Pathway would there not? The ****torm that has caused provides an indication of just how controversial any bill would be.
Report MisterBadger January 21, 2014 10:40 AM GMT
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9644287/NHS-millions-for-contro...
Report MisterBadger January 21, 2014 10:40 AM GMT
.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9644287/NHS-millions-for-controversial-care-pathway.html
Report alabaster crashes down January 21, 2014 4:18 PM GMT
my nan was put on it last year after getting a really nasty infection amongst other problems. My only issue with it is they often don't inform the relatives specifically that the LCP is to be employed. Her condition improved and she was taken off it quite quickly and was back to her residential home a week later. I suppose that should mean I should be against it however she was in a real bad way at the time and at 91, also suffering from dementia and not having been able to recognise any relatives for the last five years or so I think it was the right thing to do at the time. Such a difficult subject though...what constitutes an acceptable quality of life and who get's to decide? One things for sure I know that I wouldn't want to spend ten years in a home waking up wondering who is who and whats going on.
Report yeahyeahwhatever January 21, 2014 10:06 PM GMT
re:Dobbo  21 Jan 14 00:55   
Lets start at the right end of the argument. You are dying of pancreatic cancer.You are in agony. Your death is certain.The agony will last a week, two weeks, three weeks, three months?You are vomiting your own feaces.
No doctor can cure you but he can help you by supplying the drug that you can use of your own volition to end your pain.
Its a no brainer. Support he assisted dying bill. Who knows? In 10 or 20 years time you may be truly thankful that you did.


but WHY does that person require assistance Dobbo?  Arterial spurt is quick and relatively painless (groin, neck - you don't have to be that precise).  Bit messy granted, but lie in bath and put duvet over yourself to catch most of the blood.  The only people who need assistance are those who are paralysed from the neck down, for everyone else the harsh fact is that they want someone else to do it for them - to me that's not that action of someone who wants to die.

When it comes to cases like dementia - as hard it is for those around you - because you are not you anymore - you might be acting irrationally, but quite happy nevertheless.
Report Dobbo January 21, 2014 10:20 PM GMT
The Bill does not allow for "someone" doing it for them and it has nothing to do with euthanasia. Its simple

"Assisted dying is when a terminally ill, mentally competent adult, making the choice of their own free will and after meeting strict legal safeguards, takes prescribed medication which will end their life."

Not everyone fancies bleeding to death in the bath and why should they?
Report egner January 21, 2014 10:40 PM GMT
..the option is already there and is being used successfully and compassionately every day....and thank God that it is...

..about a year ago.. after a 3 year fight with cancer.... my father was drowning in his own flem as pneumonia overtook him ...while I and my mum and brother and sister were taking turns holding one of those cardboard things for him...as we had been for the past 12 hours while he was trying to cough it up....which he couldn't.. the iv morphine was not enough...

..he.. and we... chose a couple of injections within the remit of the LCP....within 30 minutes he had peace with his loved ones around him...

..there really was no other choice....but thank god there was at least some kind of choice.

Life at all costs........nonsensical....and barbaric!!
Report dewey January 21, 2014 10:46 PM GMT
Wow!  Tough one really - I think it would depend on the individual case.........as I said. imo - Tough one.
Report yeahyeahwhatever January 21, 2014 11:01 PM GMT
that's very interesting egner - did you know the drugs were being administered and what they going to do?

The hospital killed my father - absolutely convinced of it, but this was 30 years ago. 

He'd had stroke after stroke and couldn't walk, barely any control over his limbs and  could only manage to sound the odd word now and again.  It was a young doctor who [eventually] asked me as a 19 year-old "don't you think your father has suffered enough", a matron stuck a  yellow form in front of me which I signed without reading (just wanted the nightmare to end) and at 6 am the following morning the hospital called to say he'd passed away peacefully during the night - yeah, like hell he did.  When we went over there were nurses who were so angry with me and had the audacity to tell me that my father had "years of life left".  This from nurses who used to leave my father in the day room furthest from the ward so they didn't have deal with his shouting and we'd find him freezing in his pyjamas, distressed where he'd been for god knows how long.  I was terrified that the form I'd signed was some sort of euthanasia agreement and it would show up on the death certificate so I went to see our family GP - who had looked after my father for decades - all he could say was "they shouldn't have let you do it, you're too young.  Don't worry, the death cert will say heart attack, nobody will ever know".  True to his word, that's exactly what is did say, and my mother never did know.

F*cking hypocrites the lot of them, our GP knew what we'd been through for years, but as soon as someone else gives me the form to sign that's fine.
Report egner January 21, 2014 11:08 PM GMT
that's very interesting egner - did you know the drugs were being administered and what they going to do?

yes...I asked for them.....nothing untoward.....the framework was in place...was about 130 in the morning.

..went to the nurses station and simply asked for something to help him "sleep"

..the male nurse nodded...went to ok it with the doctor on the ward...about 10 minutes later came back with the vials.

lots of tears.. but as I said...nothing untoward....nothing chilling about...simply compassion.

in our case anyway.
Report dewey January 21, 2014 11:09 PM GMT
My brother-in-law had the sole responsibility to agree with the turning off of my sisters' life support - will never know.
Report egner January 21, 2014 11:12 PM GMT
oh and on the death certificate the cause was pneaumonia... which it was of course even if technically things were hurried along a little in the name of compassion.

..it is the same in many cancer deaths I think.
Report SlippyBlue January 21, 2014 11:17 PM GMT
My Dad went from being a big proud 17 stone Irishman, who was my hero in life, to basically a hollow shell with no dignity left and suffering terrible pain. It completely destroyed all of us to watch a splendid man suffer like that.
Report egner January 21, 2014 11:19 PM GMT
..sorry to hear that slippy....

..in the modern age there really is no need for it.
Report yeahyeahwhatever January 21, 2014 11:32 PM GMT
but we're all saying this is a good and kind thing, like they did something fantastically altruistic.  Why is it THEIR decision to make?  why do we have to live through the the suffering of our relatives, or the suffering of our own illness until some [in many cases] arrogant, over-paid, health-care professional decides they may deign to help us?


It's all so hit and miss - you could go to a nurses' station on another night and have a very different outcome.
Report egner January 21, 2014 11:40 PM GMT
.no yeahyeah we couldn't have got a different outcome.....

...the cancer had overtaken him...so had the jaundice....and so had the pneaumonia....

...this had already been discussed with the ward and dad and all of us about s days before.....not that we needed telling...no miracle was going to happen...

..only one option remained ....compassion.....that is the crux of the matter...compassion.
Report yeahyeahwhatever January 21, 2014 11:44 PM GMT
sorry egner, I didn't grasp that.  I didn't realise it had been discussed previously.
Report egner January 21, 2014 11:50 PM GMT
no problem yeahyeah...

..in fact if we and dad had had our way it would have been done about 3 weeks earlier when he lost hope and was exhausted both mentally and physically from the past 3 years.....

...I feel sad typing it and kind of reliving something so personal....

..but it enrages me that so much misinformation has been put out about the LCP ...

..when used wisely and its implications discussed intelligently it can relieve so much unnecessary suffering in a controlled environment and allow people to have some dignity in their final hours.
Report TheBetterBettor January 22, 2014 9:26 AM GMT
I don't think it bothers any of my friends....

They are forever giving me gift vouchers for Dignitas.
Report johnn January 23, 2014 12:21 PM GMT
My Father asked me to put a pillow over his face every day for the last month of his life, dying from cancer.
My Father in Law has Motor Neurone disease and faces the same dilemma in the not too distant future, Switzerland is being discussed.

It absolutely is a can of worms, but in this day and age we should be creative enough to be able to find a solution - we are more kind to our pets.
Report zorrostrikes January 24, 2014 7:11 AM GMT
could they not get round it. Is there a poison that can be broken into two seperate constituents? each half harmless. combining in the body to create a fatal response. i'm thinkin coke/pepsi?

if i was gonna do myself in - i'd eat a lot of cheese. drink whisky and smoke big fat cigars. This sticking a gun under your chin is lazy. parachute into a raging volcano?
Report bodil January 25, 2014 12:09 AM GMT
Trying to remember what I said wrong last night - post removed.  I suppose it must have been abuse of lawyers.  But surely they deserve to be rogered by Steely Dan IV until eternity ends.  Or maybe it was (laterally)insulting those most against euthanasia. Or maybe it was the last question.
Report Dobbo January 25, 2014 12:17 AM GMT
I noticed your post but cannot remember what you said. It was probably something classified as offensive, which is just about every thing.
Report bodil January 25, 2014 12:25 AM GMT
I asked how your head was.  In which case it must have been abusing the lawyers.  Bastards.
Report Emden January 25, 2014 12:30 AM GMT
difficult one as you cannot trust either the nhs or the relatives to do the right thing in a lot of cases.

if the patient is of sound mind and wants to end their own life, relatives in agreement, senior doctors in agreement (i.e not just a junior doctor on a night shift),  and the environment controlled, then I agree on assistance to end life where there is no other outcome but prolonging the agony.
Report deadbrain59 January 25, 2014 6:40 AM GMT
seen a programme, dignitas,sat on a sofa with his wife,sipped a drink from a glass tumbler,slowly fell asleep,assistant monitored his heart,then gently told his wife, he had passed away,thats how i would like to go.SadSad
Report Thin and Crispy January 25, 2014 7:47 AM GMT
Rather than Indignitas where a Clown comes round and pushes you out of the window.
Report erse2 January 25, 2014 8:02 AM GMT
it seems rationality goes out the window with death. apparently someone on death row suffered a slow agonising death due to the lethal drugs administered, it took them half an hour to croak it.

what's wrong with a good old fashioned firing squad in those cases?

for the rest of us... I'd like to think that people can have the choice to take their own life if they're (physically) terminally ill. I don't think anyone else is in a position to decide your own life outwith what doctor's have in their power just now.
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