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There is the assumption, in all the reports, that Fergie is the best ever manager...but is he?
Within a minute, I reckon I can think of 4 better managers...
Within a minute, I reckon I can think of 4 better managers...
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I think he probably is. Love him or loathe him, you should have a long hard look at yourself if you can't admire what he achieved.
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depends what criteria you use
13 Titles in one of the top 3 or 4 leagues in the world , can;t imagine anyone else has done that |
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League tables of managers dont matter. He has been a great manager.Good for football,entertaining, interesting,adaptable. His main achievement has been breaking up the teams and rebuilding time and time again. No other manager has done that.They dont stay long enough to face that particular challenge.
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He is fortunate in as much as if his tenure started now, he'd have been fired long before all the success, such is the ridiculous expectation in the modern era. Great manager and a fantastic career, but I'd still put him behind Mr Clough.
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Two European Cups / Champions' Leagues is a poor haul...one on pens. and the other a smash and grab after being outplayed.
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Champions' League is the true test and Sir Furious never established a "dynasty" type situation, despite the advantages enjoyed by Man Utd...unlike Ajax, Liverpool, AC Milan, Real Madrid, Barcelona, etc.
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I think he disapointed in europe. He won two champions leagues but with teams lacking style. In a period where there was very little football money in two of the traditional powerhouses of europe, italy and germany. Agree with Veasquez about Ajax, Liverpool, Real Madrid Barcelona and AC Milan.
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The Arsenal team that Wenger built with some brilliant buys is by far the best english team over the past 20 years.
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Jock Stein made four European Cup semi-finals with a local select and won the big cup in glorious style
 ...Brian Clough won 2 with a provincial team...under Bob Paisley, Liverpool looked dominant in Europe...Bela Guttmann, Ernst Happel and Rinus Michels were influential and excelled in Europe... |
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Agree with you 100% Paddletoe, though I like Man Utd. better than Arsenal.
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Only 4 Champions League finals in 27 years and battered in all of them, fluking 2 wins.
The money factor is underplayed with Man Utd compared to Man City or Chelsea, but he's spent millions and millions. Probably more than the two put together. |
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I think his Aberdeen tenure should be taken into account too. He was there from 1978 to 1986. Here are Aberdeen's historical league positions:
. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aberdeen_FC_History.gif He also (and I certainly didn't just copy and paste this from Wikipedia) won one Drybrough Cup, four Scottish Cups, the European Cup Winner's Cup, the European Super Cup and a League Cup. To be fair I don't feel qualified to say he was the best ever though. |
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Billy McNeill built a successful side before Fergie joined Aberdeen. McNeill signed Gordon Strachan and Steve Archibald. At that time, Jim McLean had achieved at least as much as Fergie - Dundee Utd. were beautiful to watch, much more entertaining than Aberdeen. They got to a European Cup semi but were cheated out of the final by a ref who was bribed, and reached the uefa cup final.
I saw Aberdeen a few times against Celtic and Willie Miller used to referee the games. The Aberdeen players were always in the ref's face. Aberdeen defended really well and played in nice tight triangles. They were a really good, functional team. In the final against Real Madrid, Jock Stein told Fergie to present Di Stefano with a quality bottle of whisky : "Make him think you're just pleased to be there..." Masters of the dark arts... Obviously Fergie is a great manager, but at no time did his ANY of his teams dominate Europe like the teams I mentioned earlier...when did Fergie win three Champions' Leagues in a row? Have I missed something? Fergie is a pragmatist. There's a documentary with Scottish journo Gerry McNee, where Fergie is watching Brazil and he comments on the two nippy, sharp centre-forwards, Bebeto and Romario...in the next season, he played two nippy, sharp centre-forwards up front.  With Barcelona at their peak in the last few years, people said, "This is the greatest club side ever." They have also said that about Ajax and Real Madrid sides. No-one has ever said that about a Man Utd. team. |
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I'd put Billy McNeil in the bottom three managers since I've been following Villa, and they've had some absolute stinkers! Champions of Europe to finishing bottom of the league under him within 5 years.
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Can't argue with that...Celtic were very naive against Aberdeen and couldn't defend for toffee. They attacked Aberdeen all night but were beaten 1-3 at home and lost the league that night.
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I used to play with Aston Villa in the school subbuteo league, Lager Khan : the players used to be numbered and we kept records. By far and away the top scorer was a Turkish lad playing for Villa, named - H'raktan ! - yeah, Villa had a Turkish forward back in the 70s!
H'raktan  |
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Sir Alf Ramsey.
Ipswich Town won the second division 1960-61. Ipswich Town won the first division 1961-62. England won the World Cup in 1966. To win promotion into the "premier" league and then win it at the first attempt was a great feat. I've just finished re-reading Leo McKinstry's biography, "Sir Alf". The FA gave him a pension of only £1,200 a year in 1974, and replaced him with Don Revie at £25,000 a year. (That year I qualified as an accountant and my first salary was £3,000.) Alf struggled on his £25 a week until years later he got the old-age pension of £70 a week. Disgraceful by the FA. |
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The problem with all of Fergies Man Utd teams were that they were always short of one or two world class players in any one side he built. He had the benefit of a lot of very good home grown players which is always important to give a team a sense of home identity but his teams always lacked flair.
One of my favourite players he bought was a russian winger with real pace ( konchelskis i think his name was ) but other than Ronaldo his teams lacked frigtening pace. He should have bought a player like overmars or Roben at a time when he had already the basis of a good team. |
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massively underacheived in Europe imo
Great longevity but a lot of managers would have been just as succusful with Uniteds resources and the youth team of Beckham, Scholes, Giggs, Nevilles etc |
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H'raktan was a manager too, y'know...
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No doubt Fergie was a great manager and his domestic record is incomparable but I think the lack of European success is a big blip on his cv.
Bob Paisley had a fantastic domestic record but Utd fans criticise his European record by saying it was easier back then. However Bob's Liverpool won the UEFA Cup in 1976 before lifting the big one back to back in 1977 & 1978.It'll be some time before that's done again imo. He's still the most successful manager in the history of the competition as well with 3 successes. In the 1978 /79 Euro cup Liverpool were drawn against Notts Forest in the 1st round (no seeding or country protection then) who went on to win two on the bounce themselves. |
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Comparing the European Cup era to the Champions League is wrong. It is a different competition and football has changed considerably. Even the Champions League era should probably be split into pre and post expansion.
The European Cup was far harder to get into, but was far easier to win once you were in it, especially if the draw cut up. Consquently, teams that were dominant domestically were favoured by the European Cup format. If he has underachieved it is only very slightly. He has been to just about his fair share of finals since the mid 90s in my opinion. |
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good post John
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2 things for me.
1. great manager. pretty much everyone in the game has only good things to say about him too. 2. it goes to show that managers need a few of years to get things right. sadly, there's too much money at stake and can relegation can make or break a club, e.g.\ Leeds United. He's managed Man U since I was 5 years old. Shurley an excellent role model for people who want to achieve great things. |
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you have to give credit to the club for standing by him for what was not a great start, shame more clubs don't do the same.
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surprised
sniff thought erse older Clough, Mr No1 |
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H'raktan texted, "Me I woodant sign Taibi an Veron an load of other for the big mazonga..."
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Ron knee
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The main reason people dislike him is jealousy.
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I just about like him - I actually stay in a street he used to live in - but I don't think he's the best ever manager just because he had the EPL sussed.
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BTW - re. the European Cup / Champions' League thing and the points made by John...when Man Utd. beat Bayern in 98-99, did they take part in that tournament as English champs or were they runners-up to Arsenal...?
In other words, in the old format, would they have taken part at all? Joost askin', like... |
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The main reason people dislike him has been all the bullying and hectoring. Clough won back to back European Cups with teams who obeyed the laws of the game and generally respected its officials. Fergie massacred the spirit of the game and sought to intimidate those whose job was to seek to implement the laws impartially.
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And when Barcelona (one of the dynasties mentioned) won it in 2009 beating Man Utd in the final, they finished a poor 3rd in the league the previous season so Man Utd would have 'won' it that year....
The European Cup and Champions League are different competitions. |
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I'd say yes but Clough's achievements in late 70s and early 80s won't happen again.
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Yes John 100% spot on. In the old days were probably only 3-4 who could win it .
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I suppose in the british game then the greatest ever.
The counter argument is that he has really only done it at one club (scottish league football doesn't count). Man utd is one of the top 3 richest, so never a problem attracting the best players in the world, and getting rid of the ones that don't shape up. No problem trying to balance the books i.e old player out - to fund the purchase of a new player. Huge squad, whose 2nd string team would probably finish in the top half of the prem. Also, He has never managed different teams abroad, in different countries, to a very high level eg like mouriniho has. |
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^^^ I know what you are saying but this wasn't the way when he joined United in 1986 they were in a very poor way.
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^^^ I know what you are saying but this wasn't the way when he joined United in 1986 they were in a very poor way
Yes they were in a state and it took him a few years to sort the mess out. Which he did. His record will never be beaten in the British game. Never. Even the great managers at Liverpool do not compare. I just think it would have been interesting to see how he would have got on if he had decided to worked abroad, which for me is the ultimate test - but I suppose, when you are working for man utd (one of the top 3 clubs in the world), and you are settled, why bother working abroad just to test yourself. |