bookies of a by-gone era...

I liked Surrey in the pre mass internet days their ads in the life and post had a good variety of sporting odds (handicaps, totals etc).  Go into Lads etc in 1991 and ask for points totals on an England rugby match and you would get a look but Surrey would list the lot.

Anyone from Norwich or Norfolk remember the Ted Chapman bookies?  They would often let me have a price even when it had just gone.  I guess Chapman Junior judged correctly that I was a loser. You don't get big biros cellotaped and then chained to the ledges these days.

I liked Surrey in the pre mass internet days their ads in the life and post had a good variety of sporting odds (handicaps, totals etc).  Go into Lads etc in 1991 and ask for points totals on an England rugby match and you would get a look but Surrey would list the lot.

Anyone from Norwich or Norfolk remember the Ted Chapman bookies?  They would often let me have a price even when it had just gone.  I guess Chapman Junior judged correctly that I was a loser. You don't get big biros cellotaped and then chained to the ledges these days.

'West-country bookmaker David Pipe Senior sold his chain of betting offices to William Hill and bought Tuckers Farm, a derelict pig farming facility.


From here, he encouraged his only son Martin, to train racehorses and they started off in point-to-points. Following initial successes in the amateur ranks, Martin turned professional trainer and saddled his first winner under rules, Hit Parade to win a Taunton selling hurdle on 9th May 1975'

akabula    27 Nov 14 00:57 
You sure taxi? I didn't think city tote came into being until 71 or 72 when they took over the tote shops.
I'm sure it was plain old city bookmakers prior to that.

You may be right.

I moved around a lot and may have the years wrong. When I moved to Cyprus (the district of Newham that the shop was in) it was already there. 

I did shag one of the cashiers though, I remember that.

remember her name ?

SSP were a rum lot. Shut accounts quicker than anybody.

Iirc it was Elaine.

Surrey Racing. Were they taken over by Bowmans? I know Bowmans owed me money when they went bust.

U were Glimmer then

I thought I was Glimmer earlier than that.

Windsors. Bet not many remember them. Mentioned in my famous "Lucky Fred" joke.

Anyone mention Hector Macdonalds

Another West Country firm - H Backhouse.

They had shops around the West Country and a couple in London (now closed). I think they just have a few shops around Bristol/Wiltshire now.

They still have a dozen or so shops in the Zummerzet area, Judge, which is why I didn't mention them. They are the Kings of the Blackmore Vale.

There are half a dozen other shops scattered around the W Midlands and Berkshire too.

Used to have excellent concessions in the 1990s (eg paying 4 places when 16-runner h'caps had a non-runner), so I used to channel as many mug and compulsive bets through them as possible to keep the account open. Sod's law came into play, of course, and Jack Berry 2yos always seemed to land the odds when I rang up Backhouse to punt them, so the account got closed as swiftly as the ones with all the other plucky little independents.

Luvbet were fantastic, very generous very early prices on every race. They went under after a short time. They used pay you by cheque, think they were from Cork

Yes, very generous indeed, like Stan James. Trouble is with Stan, take them and they sack you.

hard to believe now but back in the mid 80s fred done was a very good bookmaker to deal with.


as mentioned earlier gillibrand of blackpool was a treat to watch operate.

alun2005

you mention best of the rest.

my favourite was when it was a photo finish.

out came the board

short head 1/2

head 4/6

neck evens

dead heat 6/4

1/2 length 5/2





he could lay the lot

and he could lay all 5

Gillibrand was one of my favorites too

Amazed nobody has mentioned Jonny Humphreys as of yet.Surely I'm not the only bod from Sarfff of the river.He still makes the odd appearance down at Sunny Crayford(remember him more for pulling in at Catford in his Royce on a Thursday night)
Would always stand a decent bet(but then he could afford to)

Three proper bookmakers there, TheCoat, plus T&F.

I mean, it was nice the way the dynamic duo appeared from nowhere, laying Tabor at Newmarket in the afternoon and anything you like at the Stow in the evening, but I understand it all got a bit messy in the end.

Here's a name from the loadsamoney 1980s: Dougie Goldstein, trading on the southern rails as Benny Racing, with staff betting in telephone numbers. Anyone know what actually happened to him after he disappeared following that Saturday NH meeting at Ascot? I believe he was supposed to own an aircraft components factory, but that didn't seem to help a number of people who had left the course thinking they were winners.

Yes T&F bought the number 1 pitch at Newmarket July course when the pitches were allowed to be sold. They always looked like they were crapping themselves. They must have been in far too deep than was comfortable.

Good shout with T&F, they took on the Coolmore mob and got severely punished.

Stewardsenquiry, I knew John Humphries very well. I had dogs at Catford for years as did my Dad. I was never mad keen on Crayford as it was a bit of a pain to get to. I think Chris Ralph has the pitch there who used to clerk for Humphries. He had a shop in Beckenham down the road when I lived there. He was a slippery customer though but I have to say I always liked doing business with him and used to mark his card sometimes and get an inflated price and never got a knock back. I remember his Rolls and he also had a Bentley which I must have paid for a wheel or two over the years. I hardly missed a meeting at Catford for 25 years, it was like a bereavement when the place closed down, my second home.

Great thread.

Not sure if I'm up to speed on the West Country scene but, to my knowledge Will Rosseff is a director of 365 but devotes three days a week to his sideline - Backhouse bookmakers. Formerly Backhouse of Baker Street. The original shop had a franking machine rather than a regular till. One manager of Mecca Edgware Rd had ten successive winners of 3/4 runner races in the early 1990's - did not get restricted.

There was a bookmaking firm called Wilkins Macawber who had a cluster of shops in the West Country until c 1975, when they sold out to Heathorn, who sold out to Coral. So, if you're in the West Country and see a Coral, quite likely it has that lineage, just as a William Hill shop could have been an old Dave Pipe shop, and a meeting spot for bettors pre legalization. It's a different world now, but Dave Pipe used to take fields in lieu of payment from farmers who would rather lose a leg than be described as a welsher. If you are ever in the centre of Taunton, which is County Stores and Ladbrokes round the corner, the Pipe family own that real estate. Dave pipe senior passed the estate on to David pipe Jr., missing out martin, to avoid tax. Anyway, to meander to a close, Wilkins Macawber was owned by Doug Rosseff, Will's father I believe, and he was a nice avuncular guy, standing at Bristol dogs at Rovers' ground, back along.

I thought surrey became skybet

graham liles

I never threw a losing on course betting ticket away, I've got hundreds of them from many years racing up and down the country. You name a front line pitch from the late eighties to the turn of the century, I've  probably lost to them and kept the ticket.

Boxing Day down at Catford used to be my Christmas day SlippyBlue.
Loved it,shame it all moved on.
I don't have a problem with getting to Crayford,but I do have a problem with the carnage on that bloody first bend.
It's not dog racing for me,more lucky dip

Thanks for clearing up Roseff's relationship with Backhouse and Bet365, unitedbiscuits. I knew there was a connection, but wasn't sure what it was exactly.

I never knew those impressive buildings in North St, Taunton, which house the County Stores and Ladbrokes next door, had the Pipes as landlords. Fascinating. One day during the summer I was in that Ladbrokes shop when a chap started talking to me who I'm almost sure was Derek Button, who, with his brother, used to bet under the Fred Button sign in the West Country. The trouble is, I'd not seen Derek for years and I'm almost completely deaf now, so I'm not 100% sure who the nervous chap talking 19 to the dozen at me really was.

It never helped in identifying bookmakers that so few bet under their real name. One on-course character was a fellow known universally as Conky, who was also Yeovil Town Crier. I can't remember what his real name was, but it certainly wasn't Mike Loveless, which was the one above his joint. If you went to the Mansion House in Princes St, Yeovil, you'd be visiting the offices of Mike Loveless Commissioning Agent. You got the impression that this pillar of the community preferred not to be known as even a commission agent, never mind a bookmaker.

I don't know what Conky was like away from the punters, but on racecourse evidence I'd nominate him as West Country entrant for the title of Bookmaker Least Suited To A Career In Public Relations. From the South East you'd need an eliminator between Lulu Mendoza and his son Mickey. In the north the name Bryan Hazell springs to mind, but he could be most polite and sociable when, for instance, discussing the draw bias at Thirsk. On the other hand, when Eddie Fremantle used to turn up at places like Hexham, Hazell would put his bets down to "Cockney Koont".

screaming from beneath the waves - You have a knowledge far wider than mine. Entertaining stories too.
I often wonder what became of John Pegley. Anyone who went racing a few years ago would have heard him shouting the odds. he wouldn't even have to raise his voice now..

If memory serves, John Pegley was the undisputed "knockout-king" around the southern courses many moons ago.  Great bookie......

as a nipper in the 60s there was a dodgy looking chap (Arthur daley type ) hanging about on a nearby estate ,and as a kid I wondered why people were giving him bits of paper and money and once in a blue moon he would hand someone money ,when I asked a mate who he was and what does he do ,he replied its jim the bookie he collects money ! I should have taken the hint !

Pinhooker - he was a "knockout" doctor. EW multiples @ SP in the shops.

Conky Woods
Legend

terry Dewhirst and his rugby league coupon

The last I remember of Pegley was when he was working with an Australian art dealer called Wayne Heathcote, who used to turn up in the English rings at intervals over the years betting/laying very big sums.

Heathcote had also worked with a layer called Terry Barfoot back in the loadsamoney 1980s. It was an extraordinary time, when standing by the rails at Plumoton and laying a bet of £50,000 to £40,000 in an amateur riders' chase was routine.

The last I heard of Barfoot he was running a newsagent's.

Uncle nasty,you're right Surrey did become Skybet.The original Surrey was run by a guy called Mervyn Wilson I think.My pal bought Surrey off him purely for the offshore license,think it was based in Alderney,there were a few betting shops and a couple of hotels I recall,he sold them all and just kept the license,took a load of guys from Hills and set up in Harrogate and sold it to sky a couple of years later for 30 odd million,he knew very little about bookmaking but understood the internet and the way things were going.

ribero

re Mervin and surrey racing, one of their biggest golf punters won more on the open the year seve won it than seve did for winning it!

Jeremy Champman did an article about it in the old sporting life, he used to bet with your old gov, never seen him since the day Frankel won at York. Have you seen him about.

Hi Ronnie,no I haven't.

Nice one Foxy re: Gillibrand

Turner and Kendrick...eventually sold up to Star Sports

^^^

Used to hedge with them a few years ago.

Think Bernstein are now a hedging firm and text provider to Independents.

Ronnie,you will remember the Bob Kett firm well,i went to Arthur Ketts funeral last week,he was a good friend.Thinking back to the surrey-Sky deal it will have been a fair bit more than 30 odd million I mentioned.

always like to reminisce about the old days of on and off course books, here is a firm that are no longer with us Korals bookmakers, we do still have Korals arcades!!

unitedbiscuits

Great thread.

Not sure if I'm up to speed on the West Country scene but, to my knowledge Will Rosseff is a director of 365 but devotes three days a week to his sideline - Backhouse bookmakers. Formerly Backhouse of Baker Street. The original shop had a franking machine rather than a regular till. One manager of Mecca Edgware Rd had ten successive winners of 3/4 runner races in the early 1990's - did not get restricted.


That was Mecca's flagship shop and in those days the managers were on a real healthy commission as well as top wages.
It was paid every 6 months at first then yearly and whoever managed that shop copped for an extra year or twos wages every year.

Tony Queen (Glasgow)

Bula, do you remember a smaller Independent named Barratts who had shops in the Lothian area in the 70s? If you do, are they still trading?

How about some of these names from the East Anglia.
Teeny Manning - Ipswich dogs and horse tracks.
Bill Hobley - Ipswich dogs then possibly Crayford or Maidstone.
Herbert Cattermole - Ipswich dogs remember him using paper sheets with runners written on an black paper strip for prices!
Tom Layzell (Ken) - Ipswich dogs plus two shops. Would lay a good bet. Cut my teeth in his shop back in the 80s.
Grog - Yarmouth and Swaffham Dogs
Arthur Thompson - Yarmouth dogs (recently passed away).
Duggie Pye - Yarmouth dogs and horses.
H. Gallant - Yarmouth dogs. smothered everyone in chalk.
A.J.H. - Yarmouth dogs - always completely different prices to everyone else.
Futters off course firm Yarmouth area.
Alan Bunney off course firm in Norfolk.
John Slapp off course Norwich area.
Ted Chapman off course firm Norfolk.
Mike Botwright of Bungay recently sold up.
Krullinds of Ipswich. Loved working for them. First shop I worked in was size of a postage stamp. No camera, no burglar alarm, Genie settler( never did get the hang of round robins on that), shop was always packed out. company owned by a lovely guy Bert Hatcher who was always trying to out do the big firms. only a hobby business to him. Made his money selling insurance to American servicemen on local bases.

Bring back memories romajude ?

How many 'slips'do you reckon you have Coat ? There used to be very many littering the floor behind glass in the museum at Cheltenham - dont know if they are still there.

Some from Peterborough area

Scotney
Bridgefoots
R T Hall
Eagle Racing
Cracknells
Braybrooks

themightymac
Bula, do you remember a smaller Independent named Barratts who had shops in the Lothian area in the 70s? If you do, are they still trading?

Only just saw this, no wonder you think I'm slow.
Not sure but there was a bookie in Dundee until recently traded with that name. Had 6 or 7 shops at most.
I actually knew him, stays on the road to the Ferry, and was in his house where he runs the credit side of his business from on a few occasions.

There was an independent based in Edinburgh with 20 odds shops who sold out to Hills.
Baratts ringing a bell as the name.

adding 15 percent to all your bets? was it vat? can't remember.
limits on winnings too.

Betting tax was 10% as I remember. One could choose to pay it on striking the bet, or on any returns on said bet.
Optimists paid it on the first mentioned above.

The first bookies I ever bet in had ridiculous place limits for ew bets.
3/1 a place in h/caps 16+ runners and 5/2 all other races.

I remember when the actual tax collected by the government was 6.75% of stakes and the bookies charged 9%.
The only 15% I know of is the current situation but that is a tax on bookies profits and not stakes.

Bookies definitely used to charge 10% tax, may have been reduced later before it was scrapped.

didn't realise you a young pup crags

Wasn't saying they didn't crags but I don't know what the government actually took.
I remember it at 6.75% and 8. something but 9% was the only one I could remember the actual tax the government took.

stake 90p tax 9p Evs win 1.80
stake £1 no tax return 1.80

pay on

stake 90p tax 9p Evs win 1.80
stake £1 no tax return 1.80

pay on

Are you drunk?

Would be £1 at evens pays £2 less 18p tax = £1.82

Stake £10- tax £1 = £11 pay on. Odds 3/1 horse wins= return of £40. Profit £29

Same £10 stake with tax paid on winnings = £40 - tax of £4=£36 . profit of £26

10% tax

and yes i have had a few

You are paying £1 less in the second bet.
Putting the £11 on to level; it out returns £44 less £4.40 deduction = £39.60.
So £28.60 profit v £29.00 if tax paid.

ie better to pay tax 1st ?

lol I've tried to make it as simple as possible. the stake is £10 not £11, the tax doesn't count as part of the stake!

Yes

Nov 1, 2016 -- 7:19PM, Capt__F wrote:

ie better to pay tax 1st ?

only for optimists

In the bookies tax returns crags a £10 bet with the tax of 10% paid on is shown in the stakes as £11.

ie it is rung up on the till as £11 and the till tally at the end of the day less/plus over/rings/under/rings are classed as stakes.

Nov 1, 2016 -- 7:23PM, akabula wrote:

In the bookies tax returns crags a £10 bet with the tax of 10% paid on is shown in the stakes as £11.

No, it's a £10 bet, the other pound is the tax.

an £11 bet, if anyone in their right mind would have one, would cost £12.10.

aka has filled in many a monthly return to Greenock imo -all on line these days and 1/4ly

crags I was a bookie and the £10 plus £1 is rung up as £11 and that is the part you pay tax on.
BTW if you see an old bookies rules it stated the deduction (not tax) is to cover tax and running costs.

Was by post and weekly when I did it.

pigeon ?

sorry to laugh, aka,but if I had a £10 bet in the days that we used to pay 10% betting tax, then my bet would still be £10, that is what one would have to pay tax on- not complicated at all- so I would have to hand over £11 if I decided to pay the tax up front. You can't then try to tax it again on the sum of £11!

You must be very tired or maybe very drunk? Not going to mention stupid

It's you that's being stupid crags. The bookies deduction is just that a deduction and notional in actual fact.
The bookie pays tax at about 7% on his total stakes as run up on his till.
So if he has 2 customers both betting in £10s with one paying tax on and the other not and they both have 5 bets with no winners then £105 in total will be run up. If he did no more business that week he'd send his return off showing stakes of £105 and would pay tax on that amount at whatever the rate was ie less than the 10I% he charged the customers.

sorry less than the 10% he charged the customers.

so crags 10% tax

Evs winner

stake 10.00 no tax paid u trouser 18.00
stake  9. oo tax paid9.90 u trouser 18.00

aka don't give a fig if u pay tax or not on his return its 9,90 or 10.00 better for the punter to pay tax on - some do some don't or rather did

Lots of customers actually think the bookie takes the deduction he charges for paid on bets and that deducted from non paid on bets winnings and puts it aside.
The bookie only lists total stakes as rung up on the till and the nett total of returns.

We're not talking about  about bookies reductions though, are we?

it's about the punters choice of paying the 10% when placing the bet, or paying it on any winning that they might have.

Simples

At 10% it favoured he punter to pay tax when placing the bet.

fooking hard work on here

Glad to get to bed

Gave him a 1% advantage

You must have been a losing punter crags.

wasted

Jesus H Christ.

he paid on trust me

You ever bet a winner crags. You know the old saying lucky in love ........... then again Annie koed ye as well.

Why oh why do I even bother to converse with these clowns?

Night

Good-night. Mind and turn off yer alertometer in case Annie comes on later. Don't want it waking you up.

John Banks

If the horse is going to win, pay the tax on with your stake.
If the horse is not going to win, why are you backing it?

Christ almighty, crags.

The rest of the world was handing over £99 to get £180 back on an even money winner, yet you would have honestly preferred handing over £100. And worse than that, been trying to argue with the other customers that you weren't the thickest man in the shop.

Eh?

I was explaining about the betting tax option of paying with the stake or on any returns. Nothing more, nothing less.