If there's a God

Cos he's a sadistic chav innit.

cos he has empowered man to create and ...er destroy...

without famine we would never have experienced Comic Relief.

people tend to forget this.

amen.

There isn't a God.

Nearest thing in my lifetime has been Matt LeTissier.

The Answer is here, and you know what it makes sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw

does The Problem of Pain by CS Lewis look into this?

If you're really interested into some thoughts on this matter you should read it

Consider the lily.....
...ahhh

HAVE YOU NOTICED HOW MASSIVE NATURAL DISASTERS OFTEN HAPPEN IN NON "CHRISTIAN PROTESTANT"COUNTRIES

God has absolute soverignity but he doesn't have control. Bit like a policeman during a riot. He has authority but he doesn't have control over the crowd.

So "God" (whater it is or may be) is not ominpotent?

*whatever

He's given over a lot of control to us. The results speak for themselves..

If God is omnipotent, how did he manage to have kids?

If man is five and the devil is six, then God is seven...

He probabley read chit chat and he has ALL you names

i believe almost every problem in the world inc natural disasters are down to man and the way he 'stewards' the earth...tho mankind and the earth itself is also cursed

Tony you've always got something to say on a God thread but each time you are challenged you ignore it. Why is that?

In a few years maybe even decades the Hauldren Collider will shed some new light on the subject.

"You want the truth? Believers can't handle the truth". ;-)

i never ignore challenges aspro flippin 'eck! have u seen how many times i had to answer on that usa fall thread? i had people coming at me from all over the place ..worn out i was i tell you!!
I also receive a lot of insults and after a bit, i dont always look so if i have missed any questions i apologise

Ignored yet again... so true what they say. All deaf preachers and brainwashed imo

talk about bad timing...

Yes Tony, I've asked many questions on a genuine level but you've ignored them all. Wasn't expecting that one tbh :)

where have i ignored you?

i rememember answering somethign u asked not long ago but it wsnt the usa fall thread

I'm Agnostic Tony... yeah, I sit on the fence. I understand what is going on around me and the wonders of nature which is why I can't fully justify being an atheist but with so many religions, I find it all a farce. My last question to you was why do you think your God is real and others are not?

Bloody fence sitters ;-).

can't help help it daz.. I speak as I find and nature is just too wonderful to be an atheist and not believe that there is more to this than meets the eye. Religion to me is man made and lacks any proof at all

*dab

I know what you're saying Asp. I used to class myself as an agnostic but I am definitely now an athiest. There is no omnipotent God in my eyes but as for life after death or how the Universe was created then I can't answer that.

the christian God u mean?
Its all a matter of belief, or faith isn't it?
Like yourself, I also see the wonders of nature and can see intelligent design there, if i belive in God and seeking 'truth,' its up to me to find out who this true God is...i dont pay much heed to all those televangelists who are only after our money, i look into the bible myself, yes, its ridiclued but there are things in there which to me make perfect sense, namely, the sayings and actions of Jesus, i believe he is who he says he is, tho like many others i also have doubts when he apparently doesnt answer prayer etc.
I also believe God wants man's friendship, and that that friendship can only be obtained when we are cleaned up...ie jesus has cleaned us up, paid the price of our sins, no other religion to me has this one to one friendship/relationship thing, nor it would seem, salvation from sin.
Hope this makes a little sense!

It is also likely that our brains will never be able to fully comprehend all about the Universe. Instead we like to make up something as superficial as a God.

Tony I meant the Christian, Islamic and Jewish God really.

With regards to nature, the timescale that it has had to evovle is absolutely immense. We tend to think of things in terms of our lifetime. You X that amount by several million years and that timescale would seem like infinity to us and so an infinite amout of wonderous things could happen.

Nature is wonderous but it can be explained to a certain extent.

i think the islamic faith revolves around being accepted by god because of your works, with the christian God its all grace, a free gift if we just believe...i do have some probs with the OT jewish beliefs etc tho on saying that, lots of OT prophecies refer to jesus anyway

My view is that if God cared for all mankind he/she/it would not allow that starvation of millions and allow less than 1% to control 90% of the world's wealth (or figures similar to this). We read the bible where evil was so often overcome, with Noah, Moses to name just a few. Why was that all allowed to happen back in those days where it is needed more than ever today?

Your views on world domination are similar to my own but if there was any real God who cared for his people then he would not allow this to continue. It will continue, it will probably get worse and countless more will die before peace, if it exists, ever arrives. Each to their own Tony but again your answer, like all of those before you, are based solely on how YOU think about it... that, for me, just isn't enough and as always, the proof always fails to materialise.

The Bible is full of hypocrisy and fails to examine what we have since found out about our evolution. First God made the earth etc and then the Bible omits the next so many million years and pops up with Adam and Eve. According to the Bible they came next, according to fact they came a lot later.

Now we know this to be true, how can you still continue to believe in a book that is clearly based on the thoughts of the writer, not on any known or proven fact?

What is your take on Spirtitualists Tony. It seems to me (where I live anyway) that many people especially women are turning to spiritualism instead of religion.

Again I feel that spiritualists a bit like the TV evangilists are nothing but money grabbing charlatans. What I would say though is that when someone has lost a loved one,especially a young child these people give thenm so much comfort and help them to move on even if it is nothing but lies so I suppose they are providing a decent service.

I thought Satan had been given dominion over the earth, and so Satan is responsible for all the nasty goings on until such time a final battle between good and evil takes place and abominations such as Floods, famine and Big Brother are banished forever.

5/6 the pair

AFK for an hour or so but will check this out again later. Soz for the earlier comment Tony, jumped the gun a bit there and glad you did finally answer. I will remain civil now that you have :)

Just look at those billions of objects throughout space for millions of light years. Did god create that for all our amusement at night? Of course not - we exist simply because we happen to be on a rock that's warm enough and cool enough and wet enough and dry enough (temporarily) to sustain our type of biology. 'We' can only create a god cos we have brains capable of doing so.

aspro i believe, like inj, that God has as it were - handed over control to mankind, hence the various ills befalling us, and in OT days good didnt always overcome evil did it? timescales maybe dont take account of what was happening as one paragraph can relate to a substantial numer of years.
It seems like evry time the people disobeyed, then evil would befall them, now i am not altogther sure that i believe god actually punishes as such, i am more inclined to think he lets us get on with things to see what happens when we try to live our lives without him or his grace. We are the ones ho make a mess of things ie famine is of course mankind's fault...as u know theres enough wealth etc to go around but the greedy keep it for themselves.
I also of course believe satan has a hand in mankind's affairs, not popular in todays reasoning society but i know evil exists and cant just be put down to accident of birth or even learned behaviour.
God could prob intervene to correct things and of course i believe he will, one day all of this wont matter when compared to eternity.

As for the story of man's creation, i have to believe that time honoured statement, 'in the beginning GOD!'
everything else stems from that fact..yes fact - for me...if he wants to bring man onto the world stage after creatiing sun, moon and stars etc then that is his perogative.
I dont think you can factually state either that the earth is millions of yrears old, but im not about to get inot that as there are websites dedicated to creation/evolution argument

hey ivor thats one thing i cant explain !! i often wonder what is the pont of the other planets even in our solar system? theres no answer!

i only have to witness the complexities of a wonderful buttefly or a sea horse and my heart and brain go into overload at the wonder of God's creation!

..and I can't explain how 'in the beginning God' written by man, can mean so much to you!

Why did he create man a long time after the dinosaurs were wiped out Tony?

I think you would find that the evidence that suggests the earth is millions of years old is on par with pencillin being proven to be an antibiotic. I'm not a fan of analogies but the bible is full of them so when in Rome etc..

In Genesis 1:24 we read, "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good." All the "beasts of the earth" were made on day six. We read in Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Everything that was made that ever lived upon the face of the earth was made in those six days. God made dinosaurs within those six days; he made the ones that live in the sea and fly on the fifth day and the ones that roamed around on the earth on the sixth day.

So did men and dinosaurs live together as contemporaries? Yes. We read in the book of Job regarding dinosaurs. Job 40:15-24 "Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play. He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens. The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about. Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth. He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares."

There is also much physical evidence that shows that men lived in the same time as Dinosaurs. One such example can be found in the town of Glen Rose, Texas. Through that town runs the Paluxy River. In the bed of this river were discovered dinosaur footprints. Some of these dinosaur footprints are on display at the University of Texas at Austin. The interesting thing about these footprints is that right along side there are human footprints. The human footprints were made in the same time frame as the dinosaur footprints. How could this be true if dinosaurs did not live in the same time as humans?

There is other evidence as well. In some old Indian dwellings in Havasupai Canyon in Arizona there are pictures of dinosaurs that were drawn on the wall by humans. Human footprints have been found in rock that is supposed to be 500 million years before man appeared. Human footprints have been found with trilobites. Human skulls found 130 feet below the earth under 5 separate layers of lava. There have even been some fossilized dinosaur bones found that have human carvings on them done with a flint stone. The evidence points to the fact of the coexistence of dinosaurs and man together in the same period of time.

Well if that's what you truly believe Tony good luck and maybe I'll speak to you in the next life brother.

There isn't one.

i also dont see why, when Adam and eve were roamning about, GOD should have felt the need to explain the earth's origins scientifically, he was and always has been - more interested in the relationship between man and himself.
I aslo dont believe u can prove the dinasours existed millions of years before man was made

Debates over Intelligent Design, the authenticity of Scripture and so on will continue and mud will be slung by both sides.

In my expereince the best evidence I can produce for God being real and Jesus being who he says he is (God!), is the testimonies of many (myself included) who say they have a living relationship with him.

I often feel his presence hear his voice and just the other week was at a conference where a guy was healed of chronic knee trouble. He felt 'electricity' run through both legs. He stripped off his knee brace, threw it to the floor and marched to the front to tell people what had just happened.

Been clocked by the benefits inspector imho.

dab i ponder on these things continually!! its all that matters...u have to admit one of life's many purposes is surely to find our role or meaning of life..otherwise its simply a case of, eat drink, be merry, for tomorrow we die!

So incest isn't a crime in your eyes Tony. Or did all that change when Moses came on the scene.

injera i do have probs with healings and God speaking!! i see supernatural in the ordinary ...flowers, animals, babies, jesus ' words ,love, laughter

Tony I think by pondering too much about religion and wondering about life after death we devalue this life so much.

Just enjoy life, be a nice person and get on with it. If there is life after death then it's a bonus.

yes it is a crime.God said it was so it must be!
BUT creation began perfect, til mankind sinned and creation was cursed....and i think as time has evolved, so that curse has evolved too.

i dont worry too much about life after death, im not one of those christians who believe just for life insurance purposes! i only care about my relationship to God, not the rewards

I'm off out now enjoyed the discussion Tony and as the late great Dave Allen once said "May your God go with you". :-)

and GOD BLESS U DAB!

urghhhh

but i mean it ivor! i know people just dole out syrupy phrases for the sake of it, i dont

the world would be a far better place with no religion.

think of all the wars and acts of terrorism avoided

I'm sure you and others do mean it - but it meakes me cringe and I wish they wouldn't.
Think I'll get myself a badge.

"God" is a word, a concept, a mammalian grunt signifying whatever those using it want it to signify. Ultimate truth is beyond mere words. The usual story of the entity/force/thingummy some label "God" is just that, a story.

Have you ever watched the Bird of Paradise doing its mating ritual Tony? It is a handsome plumed bird that struts its stuff up and down the branch to impress Mrs B.O.P. His crowning glory is the spread of his magnificent fan of yellow feathers as he beats out the rhythm of his lust with intricate twists and turns of his body.He encapsulates the single driving force of all life : to mindlessly procreate.

I have yet to see a more convincing arguement against the absurd notion of intelligent design.

Wayne Rooney?

He seemed to be on every street corner 2000 years ago but seems very benign now. Can anyone explain why?

And can someone confirm why god makes miracles and saves babies from earthquakes many days after they happen yet its the same god that caused it in the first place?

If your judged by lifes actions then why do babies die?

Whats the point in heaven, do angels get bored - its not as if their short of time?

Which god should I worship, there's loads to choose from? I quite fancy Zeus.

Angels have their own version of chit chat and it is a source of endless entertainment for them.

I think life itself is a tiny fraction of our experience I have a friend of mine who had a horseriding accident and was crippled.

Since she has had a stroke and can barely walk she has been diagnosed as likely to die in the near future.

She has a faith in God and believes the best is yet to come.

To quote Homer Simpson:

'What if I chose the wrong religion? Every day I'd just make God madder and madder!"

There's nothing wrong with believing but wasting time and energy on an imaginary friend is a bit pointless to me. When I feel my heart attack coming I'll convert then, no point doing the legwork all my life when I can leave it to the last minute and end up there anyway.

I think those that are close to death cling onto life. I'd a customer who made a living as a faith healer, she had a stroke. Fat lot of good her faith healing done for her.

Sorry to hear about your friends condition, it must be a horrible existence.

Ovalman you would think that.

I would imagine it to me horrible. she is genuinely one of the most happy joyful people you could hope to meet

I've caught up with this again and there is nothing more I can add. I personally believe there is something more to life but that is only how I've viewed life, its wonders and some of its coincidences that cannot possibly be man made. I've read parts of the bible, in fact I own a copy that has been passed down 5 generations so far but I'm yet to be taken in by it at all.

I respect your views Tony but I don't share them and I doubt I ever will. There are religions of this world who swear by their God(s) and disregard the views held by the Christians... why are they wrong?... The answer is still not forthcoming.

I doubt either of us will ever know the truth (as mortals) but if it were ever proved that I was wrong and you was right, I would gladly hold my hands up and take the punishment as a non-believer... what choice would I have? I'm not strictly a non-believer, I just don't believe that so many different Gods exist in so many different disguises. Maybe one of them is right and the rest are wrong... maybe they're all wrong but one thing is for sure... they are not all right, which still leaves the question... how do you choose?

You (Tony) have chosen to believe in that of the Bible, that is your choice and your right... I can't disregard other opinions just because I'm told that my people mainly believe in one.

Peace

Do what you like, repent on your deathbead, he'll let you off.

Fair answer Aspro but I've sat on the fence for far too long.

When I add up all the evidence (or lack of it) I'm certain there is no meaning. Coincidences are just that, the universe is far too huge for things like our planet not to occur.

I feel that when life is found elsewhere it will put an end to all this religious mumbo jumbo. I've no doubt its out there but intelligence may be a lot harder to find, I've actually a sneaky feeling there may be life under the surface of Europa (one of jupiters moons).

If God is conclusively, scientifically and undisputedly proven to exist it will be the biggest 1.01 GUBBED! in Betfair's history.

good debate