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how convenient...
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canaryboy 17 Dec 18:49
how convenient... ..as is your ignorance. |
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so ..i cant stand..in your opinion...a "bad" christian who believes in god will still go to heaven
and yet a person who does good all his life but is a militant ateheist wont something wrong surely |
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only one holier than thou attitude i can see on here
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others call them bulls hit
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plainlazy 17 Dec 18:50
so ..i cant stand..in your opinion...a "bad" christian who believes in god will still go to heaven and yet a person who does good all his life but is a militant ateheist wont something wrong surely Who is to say who enters heaven ? |
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so i'm ignorant to the supernatural mumbo jumbo?
LOL |
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brendanuk1 17 Dec 18:50
only one holier than thou attitude i can see on here My attitude is one of respect for those of faith and those of none. What I do draw the line at is having a cheap and petty swipe at those who have a different world view from you. |
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what about the female christian god which was thrown out along with the Gnostic books from which the council of nicea chose to 'make' the bible? Whats become of her then???
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ICANTSTANDTHISFORUM 17 Dec 18:54
brendanuk1 17 Dec 18:50 only one holier than thou attitude i can see on here My attitude is one of respect for those of faith and those of none. What I do draw the line at is having a cheap and petty swipe at those who have a different world view from you Oh - go on- you'll love it - its very liberating :) |
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canaryboy 17 Dec 18:52
so i'm ignorant to the supernatural mumbo jumbo? LOL I am afraid that your shallow persona represents a rather limited appreciation of the eternal questions in life. |
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In the second century, the polemicist Celsus (recorded in Origen's Contra Celsum 1.28-32) claimed that Mary had sex with a Roman soldier and then married Joseph who protected her from the harsh Jewish laws of the time which otherwise would have sentenced her to death by stoning for such an act.[26]
Some scholars of the historical Jesus do not believe in the Virgin Birth, regarding the nativity of Jesus to be an early Christian story created to liken Jesus to Moses (the Massacre of the Innocents) and to show him fulfilling prophecy (the return from Egypt, etc.), or speculate that the father could have been "Joseph or some unknown male who either seduced or raped the young Mary". i'd risk my life for £1 to bet that god isn't real. jesus was real, but he was either crazy or extremely gullable or a conman, who was the result of his mother having sex. |
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jimk you have conveniently over looked two millenia of Mariology.
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crazy or extremely gullable also applies to modern day religion followers. it's rather scary when 90% of the earth's population belongs to a religion.
next people will be believing that global warming is man made. |
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The story of Jesus' birth is like the rest of the stories in the bible were written many years after the man's death and should be taken with a pinch of salt.
There is little in the bible about his birth and childhood yet all Christian's take the story at face value without question. I always come back to David Icke as he is a current "messiah". I'm sure you Christians think the guy is a nutter as he speaks to god regularly yet you take the word of men 2,000 years old who write about stories 30 or 40 years previous. Try questioning your own beliefs, you may find that truth hurts. |
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i like the Icke example, Ovalman.
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Ovalman 17 Dec 19:00
The story of Jesus' birth is like the rest of the stories in the bible were written many years after the man's death and should be taken with a pinch of salt. There is little in the bible about his birth and childhood yet all Christian's take the story at face value without question. I always come back to David Icke as he is a current "messiah". I'm sure you Christians think the guy is a nutter as he speaks to god regularly yet you take the word of men 2,000 years old who write about stories 30 or 40 years previous. Try questioning your own beliefs, you may find that truth hurts. Ovalman try and study some theology before you expose your ignorance, Bultman would be a good place to start. |
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ICANTSTANDTHISFORUM i wasnt talking about you ;)
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lmfao 17 Dec 18:54
what about the female christian god which was thrown out along with the Gnostic books from which the council of nicea chose to 'make' the bible? Whats become of her then??? I think you are making a reference to 'sophia' a personification of wisdom, rather than an actual individual. |
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i cant stand.....right im going to give you what my philoophy is..it may be a bit long ..and its harder to convey in print than speech but i will do my best..
the first thing to deal with is time..the universe has been in existence for approx 14 BILLION years..the earth has been in existence for 4.6 BILLION years And yet man has only existed from his primitive form for 100,000 years.....this is a tiny tiny fraction of the time the universe has existed...and yet people who believe say that god made the universe for man...an arrogance that makes you wince..all we are is a passing species that will be in all probability gone within another 50000 years this is the first of my ideas..im going for a bath ..and then i will give you the second (and final reason )why its not concievable that there is a god looking solely after man |
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plainlazy,a divine plan/order for the cosmos can exist out side of the rational of men.
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plainlazy 17 Dec 18:39
boxing the fox...all organised religions are equally wrong...corrupt...hypocritical and arrogant...we are not just picking on you... on an individual basis im sure some form of deluded belief can help you get through life and if it works for you thats fine...live and let live Wow all those assumptions, and all of them way off target. you could read my post again, on second thoughts............. |
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Ovalman try and study some theology before you expose your ignorance,
Tis true, I haven't read any of the bible since it was rammed down my throat as a kid, I may read up on that era through independent means - I love history but I won't take in just one book as verbatim (like you do.) Bultman would be a good place to start. Can't you make up your own mind? Your god is a very benign god, just like the rest of them. |
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Ovalman 17 Dec 19:26
Ovalman try and study some theology before you expose your ignorance, Tis true, I haven't read any of the bible since it was rammed down my throat as a kid, I may read up on that era through independent means - I love history but I won't take in just one book as verbatim (like you do.) Bultman would be a good place to start. Can't you make up your own mind? Your god is a very benign god, just like the rest of them. I have an academic knowledge of religion [PhD Manchester] and I would like to believe that I have enough modicum of intellect to decipher the truth in the convoluted tome that is the bible. |
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didn't you say mary was impregnated via the supernatural :|
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If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is....
..."God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up. What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions. Do not, then, reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it. "No, but I blame them for having made, not this choice, but a choice; for again both he who chooses heads and he who chooses tails are equally at fault, they are both in the wrong. The true course is not to wager at all." Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. "That is very fine. Yes, I must wager; but I may perhaps wager too much." Let us see. Since there is an equal risk of gain and of loss, if you had only to gain two lives, instead of one, you might still wager. But if there were three lives to gain, you would have to play (since you are under the necessity of playing), and you would be imprudent, when you are forced to play, not to chance your life to gain three at a game where there is an equal risk of loss and gain. But there is an eternity of life and happiness. And this being so, if there were an infinity of chances, of which one only would be for you, you would still be right in wagering one to win two, and you would act stupidly, being obliged to play, by refusing to stake one life against three at a game in which out of an infinity of chances there is one for you, if there were an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain. But there is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. Pascal's wager. |
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preferred his triangle myself
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Pascal then asks the reader to analyze their position. If reason is truly corrupt and cannot be relied upon to decide the matter of God's existence, only a coin toss remains. In Pascal's assessment, placing a wager is unavoidable, and anyone who is incapable of trusting any evidence either for or against God's existence, must at least face the prospect that infinite happiness is at risk. The "infinite" expected value of believing is always greater than the expected value of not believing.
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Analysis with decision theory
The possibilities defined by Pascal's Wager can be thought of as a decision under uncertainty with the values of the following decision matrix. (Pascal did not mention hell, nor did he address what the outcome would be of "God exists + Living as if God does not exist," the prospect of infinite gain being sufficient to make his point. Pascal also assumed that the combination of B and ~G would simply be -N, though many people dispute that.) Note that it is necessary to assume that the probability of G is both positive and finite in this situation. God exists (G) God does not exist (~G) Living as if God exists (B) +∞ (heaven) -N (none) Living as if God does not exist (~B) ?? not specified perhaps -N (limbo/purgatory/spiritual death) or −∞ (hell) +N (none) Given these values, the option of living as if God exists (B) dominates the option of living as if God does not exist (~B). In other words, the expected value gained by choosing B is always greater than or equal to that of choosing ~B, regardless of the likelihood that God exists. In fact, according to decision theory, the only value that matters in the above matrix is the +∞. Any matrix of the following type (where f1, f2, and f3 are all finite positive or negative numbers) results in (B) as being the only rational decision. God exists (G) God does not exist (~G) Living as if God exists (B) +∞ f1 Living as if God does not exist (~B) f2 f3 [edit] Criticisms |
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I trust that the profound minds to be found on this forum can grapple with this hypothesis.
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very quick bath..right premise number 2
SIZE...as we have established man has only been on this planet for a fraction of its existence and the organized religions in existence for an even tinier fraction so ..as far size goes..this planet is a tiny sphere in our solar system..which is a tiny part of our huge galaxy...this galaxy is a tiny part of thousands of galaxies...basically the earth is a pin** on a pin** to the power of 1000s. and we have existed only a very tiny fraction in the existence of this pin**........and yet man believes the whole thing is for just us..how such an arrogant and absurd idea ever happened is mind boggling. i realise that im talking to closed minds and that you wont even give this thought but its worth a try |
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plainlazy,as I said before,a divine plan/order for the cosmos can exist out side of the rational of men.
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spot on
man thinks everything is about him and can't cope with the bigger picture |
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i was always under the impression that pascal was just covering his bets...you might as well believe because if he does exist you are on a winner...if he doesnt it doesnt matter anyway
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i cant stand...thats a very easy opt out catch all answer that means absolutely nothing
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plainlazy 17 Dec 19:48
i was always under the impression that pascal was just covering his bets...you might as well believe because if he does exist you are on a winner...if he doesnt it doesnt matter anyway Either way ,we will both know the truth within 60 years ! |
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The calculation by Pasacal only has two options when there are, in fact, at least four alternatives: The christian God and afterlife, some other god and afterlife, atheism with afterlife, and atheism without afterlife.
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ICANTSTANDTHISFORUM
You surely didn't expect to find too many like minded folk amidst a forum of degenerate gamblers did you?!??! I suspect the only time they ever ask for devine help is in a photo finish at Chepstow. You are obviously far more erudite than I, but purely out of interest; During the course of your PHD, did your attitude to your own faith and that of others, or their lack of it alter much? |
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fwiw, i'm not a degenerate gambler
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I don't think you can make up your own mind, ICAN'T, you seem to need others to do it for you. You've also took the easy option of Pascal's wager.
Is the bible verbatim? If so which bible? If its not verbatim as your mate Bultmann (whom I've never heard of) says then which bits do we keep in an which bits leave out? If some of the bible is exaggerated/ untrue then why not all of it? If 90% of the planet believe in some sort of higher being then which one is correct? Surely blieving the wrong version of god will send you to hell, hell must be brimming. Try reading a bit of science instead of believing a 2,000 year old book of hearsay. |