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30 Dec 09
16:06
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Date Joined:
07 Aug 01
Death rather of Rusian POW's was almost 60%...compared to around 4% for Westerners.
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Try reading about what the Japs did to the Chinese, absolutely horrendous.
those Nazis have gone right down in my estimation
Oddly enough, that was the second part of my rather morbid afternoon reading. Bridge over the river kwai has a lot to answer for!
Did any of these POWs help to kill 20 million of their own countrymen?
;) ;)
:0
;) ;)
:0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes is a good starting point.
The fact that the Japanese emperor refused to acknowledge the Chinese as a 'Race of People' meant that the term POW was not an option.
If you can get through this page without tears welling up you will do well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
This si just one incident in the Nanking massacre
On December 13, about 30 soldiers came to a Chinese house at #5 Hsing Lu Koo in the southeastern part of Nanking, and demanded entrance. The door was open by the landlord, a Mohammedan named Ha. They killed him immediately with a revolver and also Mrs. Ha, who knelt before them after Ha's death, begging them not to kill anyone else. Mrs. Ha asked them why they killed her husband and they shot her dead. Mrs. Hsia was dragged out from under a table in the guest hall where she had tried to hide with her 1 year old baby. After being stripped and raped by one or more men, she was bayoneted in the chest, and then had a bottle thrust into her vagina. The baby was killed with a bayonet. Some soldiers then went to the next room, where Mrs. Hsia's parents, aged 76 and 74, and her two daughters aged 16 and 14. They were about to rape the girls when the grandmother tried to protect them. The soldiers killed her with a revolver. The grandfather grasped the body of his wife and was killed. The two girls were then stripped, the elder being raped by 23 men, and the younger by 3. The older girl was stabbed afterwards and a cane was rammed in her vagina. The younger girl was bayoneted also but was spared the horrible treatment that had been meted out to her sister and mother. The soldiers then bayoneted another sister of between 78, who was also in the room. The last murders in the house were of Ha's two children, aged 4 and 2 respectively. The older was bayoneted and the younger split down through the head with a sword. (...)"[
The fact that the Japanese emperor refused to acknowledge the Chinese as a 'Race of People' meant that the term POW was not an option.
If you can get through this page without tears welling up you will do well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
This si just one incident in the Nanking massacre
On December 13, about 30 soldiers came to a Chinese house at #5 Hsing Lu Koo in the southeastern part of Nanking, and demanded entrance. The door was open by the landlord, a Mohammedan named Ha. They killed him immediately with a revolver and also Mrs. Ha, who knelt before them after Ha's death, begging them not to kill anyone else. Mrs. Ha asked them why they killed her husband and they shot her dead. Mrs. Hsia was dragged out from under a table in the guest hall where she had tried to hide with her 1 year old baby. After being stripped and raped by one or more men, she was bayoneted in the chest, and then had a bottle thrust into her vagina. The baby was killed with a bayonet. Some soldiers then went to the next room, where Mrs. Hsia's parents, aged 76 and 74, and her two daughters aged 16 and 14. They were about to rape the girls when the grandmother tried to protect them. The soldiers killed her with a revolver. The grandfather grasped the body of his wife and was killed. The two girls were then stripped, the elder being raped by 23 men, and the younger by 3. The older girl was stabbed afterwards and a cane was rammed in her vagina. The younger girl was bayoneted also but was spared the horrible treatment that had been meted out to her sister and mother. The soldiers then bayoneted another sister of between 78, who was also in the room. The last murders in the house were of Ha's two children, aged 4 and 2 respectively. The older was bayoneted and the younger split down through the head with a sword. (...)"[
400,000 German troops and their allies surrendered at Stalingrad. Only 91,000 made it to the PoW camps in Siberia. Those who survived were not released until the 50s in some cases.
The wonderful film The Marriage of Maria Braun is about Frau Braun's husband unexpectedly returning years after the war when presumed dead.
Since the Russians sent survivors of the German PoW camps to Siberia as collaborators (they must have been colaborators - how else could they have survived - being the logic), the awful Nazi behaviour made little difference to the fate of a Soviet soldier. After all, it was the Red Army that cleared minefields byaiming its guns at its own men and ordering them to run.
The wonderful film The Marriage of Maria Braun is about Frau Braun's husband unexpectedly returning years after the war when presumed dead.
Since the Russians sent survivors of the German PoW camps to Siberia as collaborators (they must have been colaborators - how else could they have survived - being the logic), the awful Nazi behaviour made little difference to the fate of a Soviet soldier. After all, it was the Red Army that cleared minefields byaiming its guns at its own men and ordering them to run.
This could well turn into a 'My baddies worse than your baddie' thread.
That's one thing you can't hold against the Italians, they practically ENCOURAGED their boys to surrender!
The Eastern bloc countries were even better, they genuinely changed there alliance to either us or the axis on a weekly basis depending on who they thought were winning.
Don't believe all the wartime Allied propaganda about Italians, sparkmaster. The Indians and other Allies who fought the Italians in Abyssinia in 1941 faced some of the bitterest fighting and bravest forces of the whole War. re the Battle of Keren:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Keren
"Keren was as hard a soldiers' battle as was ever fought, and let it be said that nowhere in the war did the Germans fight more stubbornly than those [Italian] Savoia battalions, Alpini, Bersaglieri and Grenadiers. In the [first] five days' fight the Italians suffered nearly 5,000 casualties - 1,135 of them killed. [Lorenzini][1], the gallant young Italian general, had his head blown off by one of the British guns. He had been a great leader of Eritrean troops.[16]
The unfortunate licence of wartime propaganda allowed the British Press to represent the Italians almost as comic warriors; but except for the German parachute division in Italy and the Japanese in Burma no enemy with whom the British and Indian troops were matched put up a finer fight than those Savoia battalions at Keren. Moreover, the Colonial troops, until they cracked at the very end, fought with valour and resolution, and their staunchness was a testimony to the excellence of the Italian administration and military training in Eritrea."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Keren
"Keren was as hard a soldiers' battle as was ever fought, and let it be said that nowhere in the war did the Germans fight more stubbornly than those [Italian] Savoia battalions, Alpini, Bersaglieri and Grenadiers. In the [first] five days' fight the Italians suffered nearly 5,000 casualties - 1,135 of them killed. [Lorenzini][1], the gallant young Italian general, had his head blown off by one of the British guns. He had been a great leader of Eritrean troops.[16]
The unfortunate licence of wartime propaganda allowed the British Press to represent the Italians almost as comic warriors; but except for the German parachute division in Italy and the Japanese in Burma no enemy with whom the British and Indian troops were matched put up a finer fight than those Savoia battalions at Keren. Moreover, the Colonial troops, until they cracked at the very end, fought with valour and resolution, and their staunchness was a testimony to the excellence of the Italian administration and military training in Eritrea."
Another snippit from the war you might not know.
When the allies were preparing for the D Day landings they bombed mainland France for up to 3 days to soften up the Germans.
This resulted in up to 2,500 French civilian deaths.
When the allies were preparing for the D Day landings they bombed mainland France for up to 3 days to soften up the Germans.
This resulted in up to 2,500 French civilian deaths.
The Priest 30 Dec 18:46
The Eastern bloc countries were even better, they genuinely changed there alliance to either us or the axis on a weekly basis depending on who they thought were winning.
A bit unfair. My Dad was a Ukrainian from Galicia whose parents were shot when the Russians took over that part of Polish-occupied Ukraine. Their crime was to have owned their own farm.
Escaping to the German side of the division, he was given the choice of working in a Czech coalmine or joining the German armed forces. Wishing to survive, he chose the latter.
He took part in the invasion of the USSR, deserted to join the Ukrainian resistance to fight both the Nazi and Soviet occupiers, then rejoined the Germans when that proved the only way to get weapons. Sent to Yugoslavia, he fought Tito's partisans, and finally surrendered to the Commonwealth 8th Army in Austria in 1945.
The British finally released him from a Scottish PoW camp in 1947, after he had spent a year travelling the UK on bomb disposal. He didn't have any expertise at bomb disposal, being more knowledgable about blowing things up, but he had little choice in the matter.
The moral of which story is that the Eastern Front was a mighty complicted situation, and nothing like the goodies v baddies WW2 that we in the UK fought.
The Eastern bloc countries were even better, they genuinely changed there alliance to either us or the axis on a weekly basis depending on who they thought were winning.
A bit unfair. My Dad was a Ukrainian from Galicia whose parents were shot when the Russians took over that part of Polish-occupied Ukraine. Their crime was to have owned their own farm.
Escaping to the German side of the division, he was given the choice of working in a Czech coalmine or joining the German armed forces. Wishing to survive, he chose the latter.
He took part in the invasion of the USSR, deserted to join the Ukrainian resistance to fight both the Nazi and Soviet occupiers, then rejoined the Germans when that proved the only way to get weapons. Sent to Yugoslavia, he fought Tito's partisans, and finally surrendered to the Commonwealth 8th Army in Austria in 1945.
The British finally released him from a Scottish PoW camp in 1947, after he had spent a year travelling the UK on bomb disposal. He didn't have any expertise at bomb disposal, being more knowledgable about blowing things up, but he had little choice in the matter.
The moral of which story is that the Eastern Front was a mighty complicted situation, and nothing like the goodies v baddies WW2 that we in the UK fought.
On the subject of The Ukraine, ever heard of Babi Yar?
Nazi forces, mainly German, occupied Kiev on 19 September 1941. The decision to exterminate the Jews of Kiev was made on September 26, in retaliation for guerrilla attacks against German troops, by the military governor, Maj. Gen. Friedrich Georg Eberhardt and SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, the SS and Police Leader at Rear Headquarters Army Group South. Einsatzgruppe C carried out the Babi Yar massacre and a number of other mass atrocities in Ukraine during the summer and fall of 1941. Its commander SS-Brigadefuhrer Dr. Otto Rasch and the officer commanding Sonderkommando 4a, SS-Standartenfuhrer Paul Blobel were at the September 26 meeting as well.
On 29 and 30 September 1941, a special team of German SS troops supported by other German units, local collaborators murdered 33,771 Jewish civilians after taking them to the ravine.[2][3][4][5]
The massacre to come would be the largest single mass killing for which the Nazi regime and its collaborators were responsible during its campaign against the Soviet Union[6] and is considered to be "the largest single massacre in the history of the Holocaust".[7]
for more, read.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Ya
Nazi forces, mainly German, occupied Kiev on 19 September 1941. The decision to exterminate the Jews of Kiev was made on September 26, in retaliation for guerrilla attacks against German troops, by the military governor, Maj. Gen. Friedrich Georg Eberhardt and SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, the SS and Police Leader at Rear Headquarters Army Group South. Einsatzgruppe C carried out the Babi Yar massacre and a number of other mass atrocities in Ukraine during the summer and fall of 1941. Its commander SS-Brigadefuhrer Dr. Otto Rasch and the officer commanding Sonderkommando 4a, SS-Standartenfuhrer Paul Blobel were at the September 26 meeting as well.
On 29 and 30 September 1941, a special team of German SS troops supported by other German units, local collaborators murdered 33,771 Jewish civilians after taking them to the ravine.[2][3][4][5]
The massacre to come would be the largest single mass killing for which the Nazi regime and its collaborators were responsible during its campaign against the Soviet Union[6] and is considered to be "the largest single massacre in the history of the Holocaust".[7]
for more, read.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Ya
** homini lupus ----not a new story is it
......and will continue to be a story as long as ** sapiens stalks the earth.
......and will continue to be a story as long as ** sapiens stalks the earth.
joihnizere I jut read that. Awful stuff. There was a survivor I thik who had to dig her way out through the bodies and earth.
Read 'Stalingrad' by Antony Beevor (and indeed his other books) to appreciate the sheer, lunatic ferocity of the Eastern front.
My Grandfather tried to stop a**guard whipping his mate whilst they were on a work detail in Burma WWII, he was beaten tied to a chair and his legs immersed in water that was then bought to the boil,he survived this barbaric torture because he did not show any fear or make any sound,the**officer allowed his blistered legs to be treated because he thought he was a worthy warrior,as a kid I remember the pink bald legs of my Grandfather and wondered how a human being could be so cruel to another,as for my Grandpops he just said that the Japs were not like" Us".
read - war without garlands - to understand the horrors of the Eastern front; both from a Russian and German point of view.
chilling, but totally engaging reading..
chilling, but totally engaging reading..
french force...
my grandfather was a dr in the black watch - he was only kept alive for 18 months in a POW camp so he could treat the other POWs.
my dad said he was a different man when he came back.
and he never talked to anyone about anything he saw in those 18 months.
my grandfather was a dr in the black watch - he was only kept alive for 18 months in a POW camp so he could treat the other POWs.
my dad said he was a different man when he came back.
and he never talked to anyone about anything he saw in those 18 months.
screaming from beneath the waves
A bit unfair. My Dad was a Ukrainian from Galicia whose parents were shot when the Russians took over that part of Polish-occupied Ukraine. Their crime was to have owned their own farm.
Escaping to the German side of the division, he was given the choice of working in a Czech coalmine or joining the German armed forces. Wishing to survive, he chose the latter.
He took part in the invasion of the USSR, deserted to join the Ukrainian resistance to fight both the Nazi and Soviet occupiers, then rejoined the Germans when that proved the only way to get weapons. Sent to Yugoslavia, he fought Tito's partisans, and finally surrendered to the Commonwealth 8th Army in Austria in 1945.
The British finally released him from a Scottish PoW camp in 1947, after he had spent a year travelling the UK on bomb disposal. He didn't have any expertise at bomb disposal, being more knowledgable about blowing things up, but he had little choice in the matter.
The moral of which story is that the Eastern Front was a mighty complicted situation, and nothing like the goodies v baddies WW2 that we in the UK fought.
My apologies, not meant to offend, the rank and file soldier or civilian from the Baltic states did what they did to survive, it was the Parliment of the individual countries which seemed to just change there allegiance on a daily basis.
A bit unfair. My Dad was a Ukrainian from Galicia whose parents were shot when the Russians took over that part of Polish-occupied Ukraine. Their crime was to have owned their own farm.
Escaping to the German side of the division, he was given the choice of working in a Czech coalmine or joining the German armed forces. Wishing to survive, he chose the latter.
He took part in the invasion of the USSR, deserted to join the Ukrainian resistance to fight both the Nazi and Soviet occupiers, then rejoined the Germans when that proved the only way to get weapons. Sent to Yugoslavia, he fought Tito's partisans, and finally surrendered to the Commonwealth 8th Army in Austria in 1945.
The British finally released him from a Scottish PoW camp in 1947, after he had spent a year travelling the UK on bomb disposal. He didn't have any expertise at bomb disposal, being more knowledgable about blowing things up, but he had little choice in the matter.
The moral of which story is that the Eastern Front was a mighty complicted situation, and nothing like the goodies v baddies WW2 that we in the UK fought.
My apologies, not meant to offend, the rank and file soldier or civilian from the Baltic states did what they did to survive, it was the Parliment of the individual countries which seemed to just change there allegiance on a daily basis.
screaming from beneaththewaves 30 Dec 18:38
400,000 German troops and their allies surrendered at Stalingrad. Only 91,000 made it to the PoW camps in Siberia. Those who survived were not released until the 50s in some cases.
Of those (approx 100,00 of the 6th Army that went into captivity) less than 6000 made it home.
Also worth pointing out that of the Russian POWs who were sent home after the war, the majority were sent to labour camps where they perished.
400,000 German troops and their allies surrendered at Stalingrad. Only 91,000 made it to the PoW camps in Siberia. Those who survived were not released until the 50s in some cases.
Of those (approx 100,00 of the 6th Army that went into captivity) less than 6000 made it home.
Also worth pointing out that of the Russian POWs who were sent home after the war, the majority were sent to labour camps where they perished.
Its reading this exerpts and in some of your cases first hand reports that makes you wonder about the education given at the common comprehensive school. I am inquisitive enough to have read further on WW2 and other conflicts since school. But the 'knowledge' that the standard Daily Mail british public must have on such things is so sadly lacking. Perhaps better education on such things would prevent such atrocities in the future and may stop people wanting to enlist. Without armies Governments can not wage wars.
On a lighter note, reading about the rescuing of American POW's in Japanese camps, one highgly successful rescue left one prisoner behind - a deaf bloke who was having a crap at the time and missed the whole shebang. It ended well as he eventually found his way to safety.
Any Readers of Sven Hassel here, they were Black Humour describing a Penal Battalion on the Eastern front, The Author is a Swede who served with the Wehrmacht
Japanese Unit 731
Live Experiments on A;;L prisoners sent into their hands incl ALL Allied personnel , USA, UK, Australia , New Zealand ...
No survivors ..
The Airmen who carried out the Doolittle Raid had members captured and sent to this Unit 731 for Live Experimentation on them ..
(Other Doolittle Raid Captives fell into the hands of the Kempai Tei ...
who were far more brutal than the Gestapo )...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
Live Experiments on A;;L prisoners sent into their hands incl ALL Allied personnel , USA, UK, Australia , New Zealand ...
No survivors ..
The Airmen who carried out the Doolittle Raid had members captured and sent to this Unit 731 for Live Experimentation on them ..
(Other Doolittle Raid Captives fell into the hands of the Kempai Tei ...
who were far more brutal than the Gestapo )...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
Just ONE activity of Unit 731 :-
Vivisection
Prisoners of war were subjected to vivisection without anesthesia.[13
Vivisections were performed on prisoners after infecting them with various diseases. Scientists performed invasive surgery on prisoners, removing organs to study the effects of disease on the human body. These were conducted while the patients were alive because it was feared that the decomposition process would affect the results.The infected and vivisected prisoners included men, women, children, and infants.
Vivisections were also performed on pregnant women, sometimes impregnated by doctors, and the fetus removed.
Prisoners had limbs amputated in order to study blood loss.
Those limbs that were removed were sometimes re-attached to the opposite sides of the body.
Some prisoners' limbs were frozen and amputated, while others had limbs frozen then thawed to study the effects of the resultant untreated gangrene and rotting.
Some prisoners had their stomachs surgically removed and the esophagus reattached to the intestines.
Parts of the brain, lungs, liver, etc. were removed from some prisoners
In 2007, Doctor Ken Yuasa testified to the Japan Times that, "I was afraid during my first vivisection, but the second time around, it was much easier. By the third time, I was willing to do it." He believes at least 1,000 people, including surgeons, were involved in vivisections over mainland China
Vivisection
Prisoners of war were subjected to vivisection without anesthesia.[13
Vivisections were performed on prisoners after infecting them with various diseases. Scientists performed invasive surgery on prisoners, removing organs to study the effects of disease on the human body. These were conducted while the patients were alive because it was feared that the decomposition process would affect the results.The infected and vivisected prisoners included men, women, children, and infants.
Vivisections were also performed on pregnant women, sometimes impregnated by doctors, and the fetus removed.
Prisoners had limbs amputated in order to study blood loss.
Those limbs that were removed were sometimes re-attached to the opposite sides of the body.
Some prisoners' limbs were frozen and amputated, while others had limbs frozen then thawed to study the effects of the resultant untreated gangrene and rotting.
Some prisoners had their stomachs surgically removed and the esophagus reattached to the intestines.
Parts of the brain, lungs, liver, etc. were removed from some prisoners
In 2007, Doctor Ken Yuasa testified to the Japan Times that, "I was afraid during my first vivisection, but the second time around, it was much easier. By the third time, I was willing to do it." He believes at least 1,000 people, including surgeons, were involved in vivisections over mainland China
Don't think the doolittle survivers were sent there Joe, although they were ill-treated and three executed.
yes sparky ...the powers that be don't like to talk about it ..
i have asked a question on another thread that has always fascinated me ...
Japan. Eight US airmen were used for medical dissection at Kyushu Imperial University with organs removed while the prisoners were still alive.
just found this :-
All Killers of "Human Experimentation" At Large. Another colossal mistake the Tokyo Trial made was that the U.S. government and Supreme Commander MacArthur struck a deal with Lt. Gen. Ishii Shiro, former commander of Japanese biological warfare Unit 73 1, that he and all members of Unit 731 were to be exonerated from war crimes in exchange for data they had acquired through human experimentation of many thousands of Chinese, Koreans, Soviets, and even U.S. POWs. Without a shadow of doubt, Ishii's crimes had far exceeded those committed by the infamous Nazi doctor Josef Mengele for conducting human experiments, while Unit 731 had murdered people many times the number of Jews, Gypsies, Polish, and Russians killed by the Nazi doctors!
All Killers of "Human Experimentation" At Large. Another colossal mistake the Tokyo Trial made was that the U.S. government and Supreme Commander MacArthur struck a deal with Lt. Gen. Ishii Shiro, former commander of Japanese biological warfare Unit 73 1, that he and all members of Unit 731 were to be exonerated from war crimes in exchange for data they had acquired through human experimentation of many thousands of Chinese, Koreans, Soviets, and even U.S. POWs. Without a shadow of doubt, Ishii's crimes had far exceeded those committed by the infamous Nazi doctor Josef Mengele for conducting human experiments, while Unit 731 had murdered people many times the number of Jews, Gypsies, Polish, and Russians killed by the Nazi doctors!
Strangely enough, was watching WWII in colour only this morning.
They were both b*stards to each other.
The treatment meted out to ordinary Germans when the Russians got there in 1945 was awful, and was in part retribution for the previous few years. Not many women in Berlin didn't get raped.
Possibly unluckiest were those who lived in villages and small towns along the constantly moving back and forth Russian front. They copped it from both sides.
I think it's fair to say tho, that the Nazis were pretty much b*stards to everyone, basically because they ruled by bullying and fear, and knew no other way. When things started going wrong they started arming Germans who had hitherto been not especially Nazi, and it went to their heads, and they became b*stards too.
They were both b*stards to each other.
The treatment meted out to ordinary Germans when the Russians got there in 1945 was awful, and was in part retribution for the previous few years. Not many women in Berlin didn't get raped.
Possibly unluckiest were those who lived in villages and small towns along the constantly moving back and forth Russian front. They copped it from both sides.
I think it's fair to say tho, that the Nazis were pretty much b*stards to everyone, basically because they ruled by bullying and fear, and knew no other way. When things started going wrong they started arming Germans who had hitherto been not especially Nazi, and it went to their heads, and they became b*stards too.
It's hardly surprising that the Russians showed little regard for the German prisoners of war. I'm surprised that they allowed ANY German to survive after finding whole communities of innocent people murdered.
It must also be VERY worrying for the Japanese to see the growth in power going on in China. They are unlikely to have forgotten what happened following the**inbvasion in 1937. They might come a-knocking on their door shortly.
I just hope that the Yanks don't get involved and drag us into it. :-(
Both the Germans and the Japs should have treated people better. Do as you would be done by!
It must also be VERY worrying for the Japanese to see the growth in power going on in China. They are unlikely to have forgotten what happened following the**inbvasion in 1937. They might come a-knocking on their door shortly.
I just hope that the Yanks don't get involved and drag us into it. :-(
Both the Germans and the Japs should have treated people better. Do as you would be done by!
Seanpantani
Makes me laugh when you here these bullsh@t politicos talking about sending another 500 young lads to Afghanistan trying to justify it on moral grounds security etc etc do we never learn?
Makes me laugh when you here these bullsh@t politicos talking about sending another 500 young lads to Afghanistan trying to justify it on moral grounds security etc etc do we never learn?
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