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0ver 70 the last 22 years
The numbers are staggering
Its 70 deaths in 88 meetings , almost one a day
There is something fundamentally wrong
Over the years I have heard about soft ground patches, reverse cambers on bends, tight corners, and too early fences off corners.
It needs a full enquiry now ,open and honest scrutiny for the good of the game
Come on B H A get off yer backsides and sort it .....
The numbers are staggering
Its 70 deaths in 88 meetings , almost one a day
There is something fundamentally wrong
Over the years I have heard about soft ground patches, reverse cambers on bends, tight corners, and too early fences off corners.
It needs a full enquiry now ,open and honest scrutiny for the good of the game
Come on B H A get off yer backsides and sort it .....
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RSPCA (England & Wales)
@RSPCA_official
We are deeply saddened and extremely concerned to see two horses die today at the Cheltenham Festival- Born Patriot and Mindsmadeup. It is absolutely crucial that steps are taken to reduce the risk of these tragedies occurring.
8:32 PM · Mar 17, 2022
@RSPCA_official
We are deeply saddened and extremely concerned to see two horses die today at the Cheltenham Festival- Born Patriot and Mindsmadeup. It is absolutely crucial that steps are taken to reduce the risk of these tragedies occurring.
8:32 PM · Mar 17, 2022
NO body likes to see horses killed on the track.
Did'nt see a post from you reguarding the 5 deaths
@Punchestown.
Your anti English boll0x is getting fcking boreing
fella.
Did'nt see a post from you reguarding the 5 deaths
@Punchestown.
Your anti English boll0x is getting fcking boreing
fella.
No, Irish is right about this. Racing is regarded differently in Britan and Ireland. In Ireland, it's a core part of rural and agricultural life. In Britain, it's seen as a business and a sport. That makes it much more vulnerable to attack in Britain. The Festival is so high profile, horse deaths there are a huge negative for the sport, exceeded only by deaths in the Grand National. The BHA must do whatever it can to limit them.
Just because in Ireland they are more thick skinned and view horse deaths differently doesn't mean it should not be highlighted by others regarding the issue as it is over here.
Blake used this excuse during the Elliott scandal as to explain away the disgust that many over here felt and suggested that in Ireland there would have been less of an issue made out of it.
We saw an example of what we're talking about here with the Bumper, the authorities were addressing safety concerns and trying to keep the competitors safe whilst you had the likes of Mangan and Mullins laughing up their sleeve wondering what all the fuss was about.
Blake used this excuse during the Elliott scandal as to explain away the disgust that many over here felt and suggested that in Ireland there would have been less of an issue made out of it.
We saw an example of what we're talking about here with the Bumper, the authorities were addressing safety concerns and trying to keep the competitors safe whilst you had the likes of Mangan and Mullins laughing up their sleeve wondering what all the fuss was about.
Doesnt matter where the track is
Where the horses are from
Not good for the sport end of.
Nice bit of micro-racism their duffy
"Just because in Ireland they are more thick skinned"
Where the horses are from
Not good for the sport end of.
Nice bit of micro-racism their duffy
"Just because in Ireland they are more thick skinned"
Anyone who thinks this situation is sustainable is a total bellend.
No matter where you are from dead horses on NH tracks are no good for the sport.
No matter where you are from dead horses on NH tracks are no good for the sport.
irish,
We can always rely on you to find racism, where there is none. It did not even occur to me that you would have interpreted the use of the word thick in such a way, all I can say is more fool me
Strontium highlighted the differences in attitudes and I gave an example of such that we all witnessed a few days ago.
We can always rely on you to find racism, where there is none. It did not even occur to me that you would have interpreted the use of the word thick in such a way, all I can say is more fool me
Strontium highlighted the differences in attitudes and I gave an example of such that we all witnessed a few days ago.
Any death of a horse is tragic and something no one wants to see but there is risk in everything. People and animals die in all sports around the world....only way to stop it is to stop having sport and therefore the animals would not have a life to start with.
Thats revolution dancing brave
We are in a process of evolution
Animal welfare in NH is getting better without a doubt since the beginning of the sport. I believe its just a case of adjust and move on maybe in different ways at different tracks. Things like the recent study highlighted by fitzy about the colour of the running board in front of the fence are examples of attempts to improve things.
There has to be common denominators , same fences ? Tired horses whipped into exhaustion ? Poor horsemanship ? I dont know .....but we need to find out and act upon it
We are in a process of evolution
Animal welfare in NH is getting better without a doubt since the beginning of the sport. I believe its just a case of adjust and move on maybe in different ways at different tracks. Things like the recent study highlighted by fitzy about the colour of the running board in front of the fence are examples of attempts to improve things.
There has to be common denominators , same fences ? Tired horses whipped into exhaustion ? Poor horsemanship ? I dont know .....but we need to find out and act upon it
Duffy
You seriously think Irish people have thicker skins ?
You seriously think Irish people have thicker skins ?
When I see a close up of the hind legs and hooves of a horse just clearing a fence as the horse's body has scraped over it I wonder who any horse goes back for more. Many of the cut/pruned stems and twigs, if not all, are razor sharp. It's no wonder to me that many horses reduce their efforts as they get wiser. They have to feel pain as they make mistakes and plough through them so it is little wonder that some don;t land properly, stumble, fall and get hurt.
In this day and age I don;t see how they can't make the "sharp" end of the fence more horse-friendly without reducing its characteristics as an obstacle.
In this day and age I don;t see how they can't make the "sharp" end of the fence more horse-friendly without reducing its characteristics as an obstacle.
It is a lot friendlier in ireland mate, the brush on the fence is often made of plastic
EASYFIX RACECOURSE STYLE CHASE FENCE
EASYFIX Racecourse Style Chase Fence is designed for racecourses and trainers, to create a uniform profile for all steeplechase fences.
"The safe, durable and hard-wearing artificial components eliminate the use of organic materials. The 3D moulded birch recreates the typical look and feel of natural birch, the padded apron creates a cushioned surface which reduces impact injuries and the orange strip gives horses a better sight line."
EASYFIX RACECOURSE STYLE CHASE FENCE
EASYFIX Racecourse Style Chase Fence is designed for racecourses and trainers, to create a uniform profile for all steeplechase fences.
"The safe, durable and hard-wearing artificial components eliminate the use of organic materials. The 3D moulded birch recreates the typical look and feel of natural birch, the padded apron creates a cushioned surface which reduces impact injuries and the orange strip gives horses a better sight line."
It is a lot friendlier in ireland mate, the brush on the fence is often made of plastic
EASYFIX RACECOURSE STYLE CHASE FENCE
EASYFIX Racecourse Style Chase Fence is designed for racecourses and trainers, to create a uniform profile for all steeplechase fences.
"The safe, durable and hard-wearing artificial components eliminate the use of organic materials. The 3D moulded birch recreates the typical look and feel of natural birch, the padded apron creates a cushioned surface which reduces impact injuries and the orange strip gives horses a better sight line."
EASYFIX RACECOURSE STYLE CHASE FENCE
EASYFIX Racecourse Style Chase Fence is designed for racecourses and trainers, to create a uniform profile for all steeplechase fences.
"The safe, durable and hard-wearing artificial components eliminate the use of organic materials. The 3D moulded birch recreates the typical look and feel of natural birch, the padded apron creates a cushioned surface which reduces impact injuries and the orange strip gives horses a better sight line."
I do not belittle any horse death on a racecourse. Nor was I looking for childish England v Ireland row. But I do firmly believe that national hunt racing in GB is vulnerable to attack on animal welfare grounds, it would be a soft target for a government that were so inclined, especially in tandem with the ongoing attack on gambling, and the BHA must do everything it can to minimise racing deaths.
Irish, I agree with you that the colour of the fences is an excellent example of things that can be improved. I was told years ago by a senior BHA official that the bars are orange because that is the easiest colour to see - now we know that for a horse, it isn't. Using colours that are good for horse and rider is clearly a positive change. Similarly the changes made to the Grand National fences has been positive in horse wlefare terms. So there are things that can, and therefore must, be done.
Irish, I agree with you that the colour of the fences is an excellent example of things that can be improved. I was told years ago by a senior BHA official that the bars are orange because that is the easiest colour to see - now we know that for a horse, it isn't. Using colours that are good for horse and rider is clearly a positive change. Similarly the changes made to the Grand National fences has been positive in horse wlefare terms. So there are things that can, and therefore must, be done.
They are guilty of what phil mickleson called obnoxious greed.
£7 a pint and £30 sausage and chips
£7 a pint and £30 sausage and chips
I had lunch there everyday
From memory it could be any one 0f 4
Either the centaur or the members mezanine area
From memory it could be any one 0f 4
Either the centaur or the members mezanine area
Honestly not sure but it was the same price as it was at the showcase meeting. The other nightmare was lamb pie, chips and mushy peas with no gravy 18 quid ?
Dear me what was you doing in the centaur?
Dreadful place to be avoided even if it’s raining heavily.
Dreadful place to be avoided even if it’s raining heavily.
I was happier getting saturated outside than been dry in the zoo.
Gone off topic a bit mate
Cheltenham festival record of deaths on the track doesnt make it the best festival in the world.
Cheltenham festival record of deaths on the track doesnt make it the best festival in the world.
Always very sad when we lose a horse for me the game is all about the horses.
The bha published a report in dec 2018 saying it was a springboard for better horse welfare at the festival.
like many of their actions .....It didnt work !
like many of their actions .....It didnt work !
whats your views on the 5 in dublin who died irish?.....
His view is that they were in Ireland so are exempt, although far be it from me to put words into his mouth
Where have the deceased horse gone? Buried or Irish/French horse abattoir?
Panorama like program aired on BBC was an uk abattoir so where is the Irish French connection
I am struggling to recall 5 deaths at the Dublin festival
Think it maybe related to punchestown where in fact this is Kildare and not in Dublin,think leopardstown is only Dublin racecourse left
There werent five deaths at Dublin
It doesnt matter anyway, if a course is unsafe then it shouldnt matter where it is.
People trying to get laughs out of it is pathetic.
It doesnt matter anyway, if a course is unsafe then it shouldnt matter where it is.
People trying to get laughs out of it is pathetic.
If I had wanted to pick on English deaths I would have plumped for the Lingfield all weather track.
How ever hard the BHA or Irish authorities try to modify tracks and change the rules, so long as we race horses, some will be injured and a few badly enough not to be repaired. I feel fortunate to have enjoyed the sport for 65 years as I fear it won't be here for that much longer.
A NH jockey get £194.63 per ride; 5 rides a day at the same track is almost £1k before expenses - a nice little earner. I understand being a jockey could be a risky profession - what profession does not(?) - nevertheless, the reward reflects the risk; add in the prize money a colossal could be had.
Its no good deflecting the argument.
The reason we go is the horses, not the jockeys, not the bands,not the shopping centre, not the beer or the cocaine.
If the horses are killed you are killing the sport.
In doing so you also kill the books (who dont care anyway), the jockeys, the enjoyment and this forum.t
The reason we go is the horses, not the jockeys, not the bands,not the shopping centre, not the beer or the cocaine.
If the horses are killed you are killing the sport.
In doing so you also kill the books (who dont care anyway), the jockeys, the enjoyment and this forum.t
Get the course safe ....
.....and the sport will be safe
Its that fecking simple
.....and the sport will be safe
Its that fecking simple
What changes would you make to improve saftety Irish?
A full time independent regulatory body would do the job the BHA have known about this problem for years , time to take them out of the equation
Would someone please suggest a viable way to change things. If horses jump obstacles with 10.00+ stones on their back, some of them will make mistakes and fall and a few of those will be killed. Even on the flat a significant number are fatally injured so, short of having leading rein races with no riders, I can't see how you avoid some injuries.
I find it astounding and difficult to comprehend how a horse with 4-spindly looking legs in comparison to its size (weight) is not injured more frequently galloping, jumping and landing at speed. Imagine a heavyweight human doing that. I think the person will be forbidden for safety and health reasons.
But, horseracing being a sport, and a horse is merely an animal it's acceptable to most involved.
But, horseracing being a sport, and a horse is merely an animal it's acceptable to most involved.
https://banbloodsports.wordpress.com/2021/05/01/five-horses-killed-at-punchestown-racing-festival/
Hope the Irish have addressed this issue as we approach this years festival
Hope the Irish have addressed this issue as we approach this years festival
Spot on Duffy. Maybe why the British trainers don’t send many horses over.
Why bring up the ireland v england thing ?
You must be embarrassed by the fact horse welfare is less important than the money needed from over crowding.
I repeat ,it doesnt matter where horses die, the sport needs to come to terms with the fact that unless something effective is done to reduce the deaths very soon there wont be a cheltenham festival or a punchestown festival.
You must be embarrassed by the fact horse welfare is less important than the money needed from over crowding.
I repeat ,it doesnt matter where horses die, the sport needs to come to terms with the fact that unless something effective is done to reduce the deaths very soon there wont be a cheltenham festival or a punchestown festival.
I don't think anyone who follows this sport likes to see horses falling, getting injured and losing their lives.
I am not sure what can be done to help this.
The painting of the flights and jumps to white hopefully might help a bit.
Running on softer going is always better but when they water this probably leads to inconsistent patches over the course.
Unfortunately when horses are pushed to their limits injuries and deaths will happen.
I am not sure what can be done to help this.
The painting of the flights and jumps to white hopefully might help a bit.
Running on softer going is always better but when they water this probably leads to inconsistent patches over the course.
Unfortunately when horses are pushed to their limits injuries and deaths will happen.
I would be devastated if anything happened to Go Chique, Paros or Crossing Lines. I go and see them whenever I can and as long as they come home safe after racing I’m over the moon. Anything that can be made to make it safer I’m all for it.
Maybe white boards on the jumps will help ?
Maybe white boards on the jumps will help ?
irishone
Why bring up the ireland v england thing ?
Your right, let’s just keep your anti British theme going through all the threads.
Why bring up the ireland v england thing ?
Your right, let’s just keep your anti British theme going through all the threads.
Brandy
I have had horses in my back field for years. People have fed them from the road and reported them dead to the ISPCA
when in fact all they were doing was lying down. I had to put signs up on their advice dont fed them and...believe it or not "horses do lie down now and then".
What I was faced with was overcoming public perception.
The BHA and the IHRB have the same problem.
They have to stay ahead of public perception because if the majority of the public perceive N H racing as a cruel sport that will end it.
It needs an independent body to keep it ahead of the public perception.
People who run the game are biased , so are the antis.
An independent body regulating the sport would keep the sport going longer . Now add in all the Cheltenham tales of drunken mobs, extortionate pricing, cokeheads and overcrowding and you can see why our sport needs protecting . Then add in the death of coursing, fox hunting and the slow death of greyhound racing .
See which way we are heading ?
I have had horses in my back field for years. People have fed them from the road and reported them dead to the ISPCA
when in fact all they were doing was lying down. I had to put signs up on their advice dont fed them and...believe it or not "horses do lie down now and then".
What I was faced with was overcoming public perception.
The BHA and the IHRB have the same problem.
They have to stay ahead of public perception because if the majority of the public perceive N H racing as a cruel sport that will end it.
It needs an independent body to keep it ahead of the public perception.
People who run the game are biased , so are the antis.
An independent body regulating the sport would keep the sport going longer . Now add in all the Cheltenham tales of drunken mobs, extortionate pricing, cokeheads and overcrowding and you can see why our sport needs protecting . Then add in the death of coursing, fox hunting and the slow death of greyhound racing .
See which way we are heading ?
Course is the same this year as last year.
Never see any of these posts from you other
than the crowing posts about th Irish winners
and the one's you'd put up after the festival
in 2021.
You were'nt to worried about the safety of the
track then.
Hypocrite.
Never see any of these posts from you other
than the crowing posts about th Irish winners
and the one's you'd put up after the festival
in 2021.
You were'nt to worried about the safety of the
track then.
Hypocrite.
If you have or did,I'll apologies.
I can't remember all posts on here,
or constantly reel back through 'em
all.
I can't remember all posts on here,
or constantly reel back through 'em
all.
..not even worth a response mate
irishone
irishone25 Feb 19 08:00Joined: 22 Sep 06 | Topic/replies: 48,131 | Blogger: irishone's blog
I have said it before and I will say it again
You are so far up your own backsides
Look at it from a different point of view
And once again open your minds....
What other world class competition
Finishes with some of the participants
Dead ?
Until cheltenham solves the problem of fatalities
How can anyone boast its world class ?
Until cheltenham starts telling the truth about the going it will not be worldclass ?
Until it stops taking gambles like not dolling fences off where the low sun causes a problem it will not be world class.
irishone
irishone25 Feb 19 08:00Joined: 22 Sep 06 | Topic/replies: 48,131 | Blogger: irishone's blog
I have said it before and I will say it again
You are so far up your own backsides
Look at it from a different point of view
And once again open your minds....
What other world class competition
Finishes with some of the participants
Dead ?
Until cheltenham solves the problem of fatalities
How can anyone boast its world class ?
Until cheltenham starts telling the truth about the going it will not be worldclass ?
Until it stops taking gambles like not dolling fences off where the low sun causes a problem it will not be world class.
Irishone just forgot to mention that Punchestown and Dublin festivals have similar rates of deaths. Even though they are “world class” and much better than anything at Cheltenham.
Read between the lines he wants Cheltenham gone.
Read between the lines he wants Cheltenham gone.
2 posts in 2 min on 2 different threads against the Irish 1,stalker springs to mind
If you both stopped your anti British racism then I would have no need to post.
I agree about horse welfare but this thread named “4 dead….ffs….BHA do something”. It’s becoming tedious this anti Cheltenham post after post…and thread after thread.
The idiot defended Gordon Elliott for sitting on a dead horse and then attacked the BHA for apparently leaking the photo so he would be banned to let the British win races at Cheltenham. Really ? To twist that episode into anti British crap must have took some working out.
I agree about horse welfare but this thread named “4 dead….ffs….BHA do something”. It’s becoming tedious this anti Cheltenham post after post…and thread after thread.
The idiot defended Gordon Elliott for sitting on a dead horse and then attacked the BHA for apparently leaking the photo so he would be banned to let the British win races at Cheltenham. Really ? To twist that episode into anti British crap must have took some working out.
So I'm anti my own people,get a grip and let someone else defend the nation,if his posts annoy you just ignore
A pathetic stalker indeed, is hibore.
Saying what about punchestown ? Or panorama films or doing the english irish thing and coming up with lies is a pathetic attempt to avoid the truth.
cheltenham less than twenty days racing per annum , punchestown and leopardstown over twenty easily
kilfenora, innisfree, reality cheque, annie kate, year of the tiger , carlingford loch ,malinas jack,,special tiara, disko
9 deaths i can recall last three years or so leopardstown
8 at punchestown since May 2018
Cheltenham 20 deaths over the same period penzance if you really want to go down the route of comparing
as I say .....it doesnt matter where they die , these are dead horses and it aint right wherever they are.
Ireland much safer at these tracks, cheltenham is a dangerous track , the bha know it and have done feck all about it since the 2013 report .
bentring ....hibore he is a liar and an aftertimer , proven many times, stuck so far up his own backside that the excrement drips through his keyboard, blocking the only answer.
Saying what about punchestown ? Or panorama films or doing the english irish thing and coming up with lies is a pathetic attempt to avoid the truth.
cheltenham less than twenty days racing per annum , punchestown and leopardstown over twenty easily
kilfenora, innisfree, reality cheque, annie kate, year of the tiger , carlingford loch ,malinas jack,,special tiara, disko
9 deaths i can recall last three years or so leopardstown
8 at punchestown since May 2018
Cheltenham 20 deaths over the same period penzance if you really want to go down the route of comparing
as I say .....it doesnt matter where they die , these are dead horses and it aint right wherever they are.
Ireland much safer at these tracks, cheltenham is a dangerous track , the bha know it and have done feck all about it since the 2013 report .
bentring ....hibore he is a liar and an aftertimer , proven many times, stuck so far up his own backside that the excrement drips through his keyboard, blocking the only answer.
The main Horse racing forum doesn’t tolerate your racism. Shame everyone seems to let you get away with it on here that is why we have 5 regular posters when there was 50+
Jees 30 minutes .....bit slow today mate
You need help .....
Stalking is unwanted and/or repeated surveillance by an individual or group toward another person.[1] Stalking behaviors are interrelated to harassment and intimidation and may include following the victim in person or monitoring them. The term stalking is used with some differing definitions in psychiatry and psychology, as well as in some legal jurisdictions as a term for a criminal offense.[2][3]
You need help .....
Stalking is unwanted and/or repeated surveillance by an individual or group toward another person.[1] Stalking behaviors are interrelated to harassment and intimidation and may include following the victim in person or monitoring them. The term stalking is used with some differing definitions in psychiatry and psychology, as well as in some legal jurisdictions as a term for a criminal offense.[2][3]
Sageform...in response to your earlier statement
The best viable way to make the necessary changes is to take the matter out of the hands of the bha and the ihrb.
Other methods that need to be explored are .....
https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/preventing-racehorse-injuries
Which explores advanced imaging technology , an important contributor to determining a horse’s risk in jumping.
https://equimanagement.com/articles/research-into-preventing-catastrophic-racehorse-injuries
Which looks at proteins in a horses blood to diagnose possible risk from injury
https://www.myvetcandy.com/clinicalupdblog/2020/11/27/horse-skeletons-provide-clues-to-preventing-racehorse-injuries
Which suggests a horses skeleton can be a guide to its chances of catestrophic injury.
There are loads of studies that have found loads of different ways of identifying horses at risk. What is missing i feel is that the system is based upon cure not prevention. Diagnosis, treat and rehabilitate is the preferred route, this has to change. Identification of horses at greater risk of injury is hardly going to be a favoured route for the main industry stakeholders currently, which is why an independent body needs to regulate the sport.
The best viable way to make the necessary changes is to take the matter out of the hands of the bha and the ihrb.
Other methods that need to be explored are .....
https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/preventing-racehorse-injuries
Which explores advanced imaging technology , an important contributor to determining a horse’s risk in jumping.
https://equimanagement.com/articles/research-into-preventing-catastrophic-racehorse-injuries
Which looks at proteins in a horses blood to diagnose possible risk from injury
https://www.myvetcandy.com/clinicalupdblog/2020/11/27/horse-skeletons-provide-clues-to-preventing-racehorse-injuries
Which suggests a horses skeleton can be a guide to its chances of catestrophic injury.
There are loads of studies that have found loads of different ways of identifying horses at risk. What is missing i feel is that the system is based upon cure not prevention. Diagnosis, treat and rehabilitate is the preferred route, this has to change. Identification of horses at greater risk of injury is hardly going to be a favoured route for the main industry stakeholders currently, which is why an independent body needs to regulate the sport.
The other thing I think needs to be addressed is the stiff fences at Cheltenham.
The rate of deaths over 2.5 miles is much higher than the two mile rate . If its not the course undulations orthe three hundred yard uphill finish , then the fences themselves have to be too hard on the horses.
The rate of deaths over 2.5 miles is much higher than the two mile rate . If its not the course undulations orthe three hundred yard uphill finish , then the fences themselves have to be too hard on the horses.
Where do you get the idea the fences at Cheltenham are stiffer?
Do you mean the placement of fences?
Or do you think the fences at Cheltenham are made from a different material making them less forgiving?
I'm sure you are knowledgeable enough not to think the latter.
Do you mean the placement of fences?
Or do you think the fences at Cheltenham are made from a different material making them less forgiving?
I'm sure you are knowledgeable enough not to think the latter.
As honcho says above the fences are a minimum of 4 foot 6 inches and made out of spruce or birch. They have the roll on roll off plastic birch fences over there which are a lot more forgiving. So yes I do mean the latter.
As for moving fences there have been changes recently with regard the second last , the main problem is the approach not being levek and the horses jumping on a downhill or an uphill. Cheltenham are well acquainted with that problem especially when its downhill into a fence with the sun behind and they are told not to doll.
As for moving fences there have been changes recently with regard the second last , the main problem is the approach not being levek and the horses jumping on a downhill or an uphill. Cheltenham are well acquainted with that problem especially when its downhill into a fence with the sun behind and they are told not to doll.
ccumulator Tips
NAP Of The Day
Lucky 15 Tips
Each Way Tips
Dark Horse Tips
Daily Win Treble
To be fair this was a few years a go...
CHELTENHAM MOVE NIGHTMARE FENCE FOR THIRD TIME IN NINE YEARS
Cheltenham racecourse is now working harder than ever to get the course and surrounding areas in top condition ready for the thousands of racegoers that will be stampeding into the track for the greatest four days of racing during the jumps season.
One of the biggest changes this season on the old course will be based around the penultimate and notoriously troublesome fence that is again being moved in position for the third time in nine years.
The movement and repositioning of the fence has come about after there was talks held between jockeys who have raced on the course, BHA senior inspector Richard Linney and the tracks itself.
The new placing of the fence will now be jumped over for the first time at the festival in the second race on the Tuesday and first Grade1 chase contest of the four days with the Racing Post Arkle.
Back in 2010 the fence was moved from the bottom of the hill on the straight after a handful of horses were suspected of falling after not making a mistake.This caused clerk of the course Simon Claisse to call it an "unreasonable challenge".
in 2016 the fence was moved again for the second time in six years after the rate of horses falling at that specific fence began to rise again and it was then moved eight yards further away from the turn for home.
In the third and hopefully final change up in position for the second to last fence, it is now being situated a further 10 yards past the turn and now leaves a total of 110 yards between the penultimate and last fence before the line.
One of the worst falls at that fence last season was in the RSA Chase where the Willie Mullins trainer Al Boum Photo crashed out of the race and leaving jockey Ruby Walsh with a fractured leg and saw him miss the rest of the festival.
NAP Of The Day
Lucky 15 Tips
Each Way Tips
Dark Horse Tips
Daily Win Treble
To be fair this was a few years a go...
CHELTENHAM MOVE NIGHTMARE FENCE FOR THIRD TIME IN NINE YEARS
Cheltenham racecourse is now working harder than ever to get the course and surrounding areas in top condition ready for the thousands of racegoers that will be stampeding into the track for the greatest four days of racing during the jumps season.
One of the biggest changes this season on the old course will be based around the penultimate and notoriously troublesome fence that is again being moved in position for the third time in nine years.
The movement and repositioning of the fence has come about after there was talks held between jockeys who have raced on the course, BHA senior inspector Richard Linney and the tracks itself.
The new placing of the fence will now be jumped over for the first time at the festival in the second race on the Tuesday and first Grade1 chase contest of the four days with the Racing Post Arkle.
Back in 2010 the fence was moved from the bottom of the hill on the straight after a handful of horses were suspected of falling after not making a mistake.This caused clerk of the course Simon Claisse to call it an "unreasonable challenge".
in 2016 the fence was moved again for the second time in six years after the rate of horses falling at that specific fence began to rise again and it was then moved eight yards further away from the turn for home.
In the third and hopefully final change up in position for the second to last fence, it is now being situated a further 10 yards past the turn and now leaves a total of 110 yards between the penultimate and last fence before the line.
One of the worst falls at that fence last season was in the RSA Chase where the Willie Mullins trainer Al Boum Photo crashed out of the race and leaving jockey Ruby Walsh with a fractured leg and saw him miss the rest of the festival.
Only one of the fatalities this year was in a steeplechase. Two were at hurdles and one was on the flat (i.e., between hurdles).
Think the 2018 Bha report sugggested there was a 2:1 ratio , twice as many fell over the chase fences than the hurdle fences .....perhaps they are heading in the right direction ? I somehow doubt it !
Extracts from the 2018 bha report ....
THE OBSTACLES
Cheltenham Racecourse has 24 steeple chase fences (‘fences’), 16 flights of hurdles (17 when a 2½ mile hurdle race) in total across the Old and New Courses. The Cross-Country Course comprises 20 individually unique obstacles, some of which are jumped more than once during a race. The Review Group undertook to:
• Consider historical obstacle changes;
• Investigate obstacle construction, particularly fences, to ensure they are constructed and filled to the highest industry standards, and if safer alternatives are available;
• Establish if all fences have appropriate and uniform levels and drops;
• Establish if any fences have a higher rate of adverse events and if so why.
The Review Group explored fence construction, survey work on the levels and drops for each fence, analysis of video footage and fence-by-fence statistics on fallers.
OBSTACLE CHANGES
British racecourses have always numbered obstacles from the first fence/hurdle in a two-mile start. Cheltenham is an exception where steeple chase fences are numbered first from the chute in the middle of the course, where the 2m 4 ½f and 2m 5f chase starts are located.
Old Course
In October 2010, fence 14 was moved into the home straight, becoming fence 6 and 15, which has successfully reduced faller rates.
The water jump was rubberised in 2008, i.e. water section featured a rubberised base as a safety measure (BHAGI 3.5(6)10).
In December 2006, fence 14 at the top of the hill became a sectional fence and was moved back nearer to the bend in order to reduce faller rates.
This fence was moved a further 30 yards towards the bend in December 2016. Faller rates were successfully reduced following this move.
During the 2007-08 season, fence sections were introduced on the New Course for the December and January fixtures, in order to save ground for the Festival, following fatalities in 200611. One of the track management criticisms at that time, was the lack of fresh ground for Championship races; therefore this enhancement through fence placement flexibility, along with reduced safety factors for December and January fixtures, facilitates the availability of fresh ground on this course for the Festival.
The water jump was rubberised in 2009 similar to the Old Course.
Other than these highlighted changes, there have been no other significant changes to fence positions or construction in recent times.
THE OBSTACLES
Cheltenham Racecourse has 24 steeple chase fences (‘fences’), 16 flights of hurdles (17 when a 2½ mile hurdle race) in total across the Old and New Courses. The Cross-Country Course comprises 20 individually unique obstacles, some of which are jumped more than once during a race. The Review Group undertook to:
• Consider historical obstacle changes;
• Investigate obstacle construction, particularly fences, to ensure they are constructed and filled to the highest industry standards, and if safer alternatives are available;
• Establish if all fences have appropriate and uniform levels and drops;
• Establish if any fences have a higher rate of adverse events and if so why.
The Review Group explored fence construction, survey work on the levels and drops for each fence, analysis of video footage and fence-by-fence statistics on fallers.
OBSTACLE CHANGES
British racecourses have always numbered obstacles from the first fence/hurdle in a two-mile start. Cheltenham is an exception where steeple chase fences are numbered first from the chute in the middle of the course, where the 2m 4 ½f and 2m 5f chase starts are located.
Old Course
In October 2010, fence 14 was moved into the home straight, becoming fence 6 and 15, which has successfully reduced faller rates.
The water jump was rubberised in 2008, i.e. water section featured a rubberised base as a safety measure (BHAGI 3.5(6)10).
In December 2006, fence 14 at the top of the hill became a sectional fence and was moved back nearer to the bend in order to reduce faller rates.
This fence was moved a further 30 yards towards the bend in December 2016. Faller rates were successfully reduced following this move.
During the 2007-08 season, fence sections were introduced on the New Course for the December and January fixtures, in order to save ground for the Festival, following fatalities in 200611. One of the track management criticisms at that time, was the lack of fresh ground for Championship races; therefore this enhancement through fence placement flexibility, along with reduced safety factors for December and January fixtures, facilitates the availability of fresh ground on this course for the Festival.
The water jump was rubberised in 2009 similar to the Old Course.
Other than these highlighted changes, there have been no other significant changes to fence positions or construction in recent times.
It is important to establish what the problems really are before trying "solutions". I think intuitively we think of steeplechase dences as more dangerous, but hurldes have bigger fields and are run at a faster pace. We are also, statistically speaking, dealing with small sample sizes when considering the Festival (only 1 flat race, 1 XC, 13 hurdle races, 13 regulation chases; 1 conditional jockeys race, 3 amateur jockeys races).
Furthermore .....
All fences at Cheltenham are made of a combination of natural materials with plastic aprons (artificial green spruce). The average height of all fences is 4’ 6” and
all fences are rebuilt in alternate years in order to ensure elasticity. Guard rails are padded and, along with take-off boards, are coloured orange.
The hurdles are made of mostly natural materials including an Ash frame with Birch laced through the structure to ensure there are no gaps and that no light is visible through the obstacle. The take-off boards and framing are orange in colour.
Although the majority of racecourses use the materials detailed above, the industry is currently investigating further developments in hurdle design. These studies are ongoing, however the Review Group recommend that all racecourses, including Cheltenham, consider future hurdle developments including padded hurdles, the Southampton University hurdle design and other safety driven initiatives.
All fences at Cheltenham are made of a combination of natural materials with plastic aprons (artificial green spruce). The average height of all fences is 4’ 6” and
all fences are rebuilt in alternate years in order to ensure elasticity. Guard rails are padded and, along with take-off boards, are coloured orange.
The hurdles are made of mostly natural materials including an Ash frame with Birch laced through the structure to ensure there are no gaps and that no light is visible through the obstacle. The take-off boards and framing are orange in colour.
Although the majority of racecourses use the materials detailed above, the industry is currently investigating further developments in hurdle design. These studies are ongoing, however the Review Group recommend that all racecourses, including Cheltenham, consider future hurdle developments including padded hurdles, the Southampton University hurdle design and other safety driven initiatives.
The 2018 report studied the period 2006/2018 which was a relatively large sample size.
My main point here is that despite all the work the BHA have done , despite all the recommendations they have made and the changes that have taken place . The festival ....the flagship of the sport , alledgedly world class..... still has horses dying annually and the overall record is sti ll pretty disgraceful.
An independent body would allow a different approach with greater visibility and no holds from the BHA internal politics.
The BHA have always wanted to be in control of its own destiny.
It is clearly not working, horses are still dying at the flagship year after year .
My main point here is that despite all the work the BHA have done , despite all the recommendations they have made and the changes that have taken place . The festival ....the flagship of the sport , alledgedly world class..... still has horses dying annually and the overall record is sti ll pretty disgraceful.
An independent body would allow a different approach with greater visibility and no holds from the BHA internal politics.
The BHA have always wanted to be in control of its own destiny.
It is clearly not working, horses are still dying at the flagship year after year .
I think it's a very fair suggestion.
But the problems are complex and I doubt there are easy solutions. I don't see how you could have horse racing yet stop an accident like Ginto's.
But the problems are complex and I doubt there are easy solutions. I don't see how you could have horse racing yet stop an accident like Ginto's.
If irishone is a racist I'm Boris Johnson. And I refuse to be that buffoon.
The man is quite right and it is you hibore who are turning this into something it shouldn't be.
The safety of the horses is far too easily taken for granted and the death of the horses is far too easily countenanced and accepted.
It's for people like you, actively involved in racing through ownership, to get things moving to improve their safety.
And you;re doing next to nothing, except voicing your prejudice on here.
This isn't about irishone, or me , or you, it is about the welfare and safety of the most important participants.
Waken up to that, put your bias aside, get your fellow owners onside to change things and the sport might start making progress with the antis, who are quiet at present but most certainly haven't gone away!.
And as he keeps saying - it doesn't where they die, it only matters that they all live.
The man is quite right and it is you hibore who are turning this into something it shouldn't be.
The safety of the horses is far too easily taken for granted and the death of the horses is far too easily countenanced and accepted.
It's for people like you, actively involved in racing through ownership, to get things moving to improve their safety.
And you;re doing next to nothing, except voicing your prejudice on here.
This isn't about irishone, or me , or you, it is about the welfare and safety of the most important participants.
Waken up to that, put your bias aside, get your fellow owners onside to change things and the sport might start making progress with the antis, who are quiet at present but most certainly haven't gone away!.
And as he keeps saying - it doesn't where they die, it only matters that they all live.
Loyal, I think you need to read the rest of the threads on here over the last 3 years. At least 10 posters have called him out on here or on your Horse Racing forum. When someone posts anti everything British in 95% of his posts then it’s not too difficult to understand our viewpoint. I’ve joined the majority of other posters who don’t bother to come onto the Cheltenham forum that often anymore. It’s a real shame.
You and Irishone post a defence of Robbie Dunne and that Bryony is the main cause of the problem on the HR forum. I’ve never joined that debate but you could argue Irish vrs British again at least from him.
Regarding the welfare/safety of horses I doubt there are many people on here who worry about that more than me every time our horses run. One of our horses wasn’t jumping that well so Henderson sent her to Henrietta Knight for a week to give the horse the best opportunity to learn to be safe over the obstacles. He does that for 90 rated horses as well as 170. I’m not sure if all trainers do that but I feel more confident she will jump correctly now and reduce mistakes that could cause harm. I’m not sure what we can do about fences and hurdles but will bring up with David Pipe when we visit the stable over the weekend and ask his opinion which I will post next week.
Best of luck with your punting.
You and Irishone post a defence of Robbie Dunne and that Bryony is the main cause of the problem on the HR forum. I’ve never joined that debate but you could argue Irish vrs British again at least from him.
Regarding the welfare/safety of horses I doubt there are many people on here who worry about that more than me every time our horses run. One of our horses wasn’t jumping that well so Henderson sent her to Henrietta Knight for a week to give the horse the best opportunity to learn to be safe over the obstacles. He does that for 90 rated horses as well as 170. I’m not sure if all trainers do that but I feel more confident she will jump correctly now and reduce mistakes that could cause harm. I’m not sure what we can do about fences and hurdles but will bring up with David Pipe when we visit the stable over the weekend and ask his opinion which I will post next week.
Best of luck with your punting.
I have never defended Robbie Dunne, nor have I ever declared him innocent. I have however regularly called out the slipshod and frankly, pre-determined process by which has was tried and judged, and of course, I have been a keen critic of the female jockey. And I still am critical of them. Perhaps you, and almost everybody else should actually read my posts and not just despatch them to bin 13.
So, as long as your horses are alright you're ok? I hope they continue to stay safe and sound, and that every other horse is given that same consideration on British racecourses.
Can I ask you - as owners what you and your consortium colleagues are actively doing for the continued improvement of horse welfare in national hunt racing?
And good luck to you with your trading too.
So, as long as your horses are alright you're ok? I hope they continue to stay safe and sound, and that every other horse is given that same consideration on British racecourses.
Can I ask you - as owners what you and your consortium colleagues are actively doing for the continued improvement of horse welfare in national hunt racing?
And good luck to you with your trading too.
hes last post says it all...the bha irhb are failing the horses basically...but the OP was like most of his stuff ..anti uk anti cheltenham,,,bla bla bla
cant remember whom it was,but the poster who said the only way your gone stop the tragedies is to stop NH racing...and i 100%agree,and its inevitable that 1 day that will be the case ...
A bit of sense there Cobrac
Fox hunting was a great sport
Hare coursing gone
Pressure on greyhound racing
No matter how those sports fought back they lost out because animals were subjected to cruelty
Which is why the BHA and the IHRB need to cop on and get their acts together , even if it means just extendin the life of the sport.
This sport will go the same way allthe time HORSES are dying .
Fox hunting was a great sport
Hare coursing gone
Pressure on greyhound racing
No matter how those sports fought back they lost out because animals were subjected to cruelty
Which is why the BHA and the IHRB need to cop on and get their acts together , even if it means just extendin the life of the sport.
This sport will go the same way allthe time HORSES are dying .
Dont agree that the only way you are going to stop the tragedies is to stop horse racing
That goes against every safety risk analysis that has ever been written.
The process is evolutionary but the speed of the evolution is the problem.
The BHA and the IHRB are not up to speed ....thats the problem.
That goes against every safety risk analysis that has ever been written.
The process is evolutionary but the speed of the evolution is the problem.
The BHA and the IHRB are not up to speed ....thats the problem.
We've been progressively banning sports that involve animals for 400 years - racing is bound to go the same way eventually, and likley NH racing first.
irishone, in an earlier post you mention a higher rate of injury in 2.5 mile chases. The only different fences jumped are the first three so are the injuries occurring there? If not then the fences are the same in all chases on the final circuit. It is possible that the pace of 2.5 mile chases is too fast or they are very competitive. I can only find the 2.5 novice, the Ryanair, the mares chase and the Plate handicap in the whole meeting and all are on the New Course. Three fell in 2.5 chases, Conflated and Galopin des Champs on Thursday and Maid O'Malley on Friday all at the second last or last fences and none were injured as far as I know.
Yes the information was gleaned from the report published by the BHA back in 2018 . If you google Cheltenham Festival Report and click on the BHA report you can download it. Its an excellent study on one side of the argument. To get a balanced view the antis produced a report of a comparison between cheltenham and hexham as well as cheltenham facts and figures . https://www.animalaid.org.uk/the-issues/our-campaigns/horse-racing/the-chelt... . Both reports are heavily biased but somewhere in between is the answer to the problem .
The problem with comparing Cheltenham with Hexham is that better horses go faster. It's likle enquring into injuries to premier league footballers by watching league 1. I'm much in favour of doing what can be done to reduce horse injuries in racing, but we won;t find the right answers by asking the wrong questions and looking at the wrong evidence.
Exactly.
I think a new approach is needed.
I would be looking at compulsory scans of all entries so that we can rule out this belief that trainers know "when a horse is right".
Lot of horses are run even though the ground is against them or they know the horse aint quite ready.
Medical assessments prior to racing MAY be something for the future.
I think a new approach is needed.
I would be looking at compulsory scans of all entries so that we can rule out this belief that trainers know "when a horse is right".
Lot of horses are run even though the ground is against them or they know the horse aint quite ready.
Medical assessments prior to racing MAY be something for the future.
I think honcho is right about the fences , their make up at Cheltenham is severe in comparison to the plastic ones used in Ireland.
I also think the hurdle panels should be one long hurdle rather than panels. You can hit a panel in the middle and itbdoesnt appear to be as hard as hitting the two supporting poles at either end of the panels. So there is inconsistency across any of the flights of hurdles.
I also think the hurdle panels should be one long hurdle rather than panels. You can hit a panel in the middle and itbdoesnt appear to be as hard as hitting the two supporting poles at either end of the panels. So there is inconsistency across any of the flights of hurdles.
Good point about the hurdles. French hurdles are also continuous. Given that most GB horses now come from France or Ireland, there may be a safety advantage in copying from one of those countries.
Traditional steeplechase fences do vary from course to course, both in terms of height and stiffness (how much birch they contain and, presumably, how solid that birch is). The fences at Cheltenham are pretty stiff/unforgiving compared with many courses (though from a sporting point of view one can argue that's appropriate for championship races).
Taking the example to the extreme, eventing fences can be much higher than steeplechase fences, but they only have a couple of layers of birch (so it's more like a screen than an obstacle).
The Aintree fences were rebuilt a few years ago with plastic cores, and that seems to have had a significant effect on reducing injuries. The whole matter of how steeplechase fences are put together is something that could be looked at.
Traditional steeplechase fences do vary from course to course, both in terms of height and stiffness (how much birch they contain and, presumably, how solid that birch is). The fences at Cheltenham are pretty stiff/unforgiving compared with many courses (though from a sporting point of view one can argue that's appropriate for championship races).
Taking the example to the extreme, eventing fences can be much higher than steeplechase fences, but they only have a couple of layers of birch (so it's more like a screen than an obstacle).
The Aintree fences were rebuilt a few years ago with plastic cores, and that seems to have had a significant effect on reducing injuries. The whole matter of how steeplechase fences are put together is something that could be looked at.
There was a study done in 2017 by the BHA
Showed a 15% fall in the number of fallers at padded fences as opposed to birch fence panels .....
.....and they still use the birch panels at Cheltenham
How much longer have we got with this incompetence at the helm of national hunt racing ?
Showed a 15% fall in the number of fallers at padded fences as opposed to birch fence panels .....
.....and they still use the birch panels at Cheltenham
How much longer have we got with this incompetence at the helm of national hunt racing ?
introduced increased padding on hurdles in 2001, newly custom-designed “One Fit” padded hurdles are now in place at ten racecourses since being rolled out in 2014, with more to follow. These hurdles are statistically proven to reduce faller and injury rates and are being rolled out to further courses in due course in a phased approach.
2017 faller rate over padded hurdles: 1.80%
Average faller rate over birch hurdles: 2.12%.
= 15% reduction in faller rate over padded hurdles
2017 faller rate over padded hurdles: 1.80%
Average faller rate over birch hurdles: 2.12%.
= 15% reduction in faller rate over padded hurdles
Willie Mullins, asked about the proposed watering for Aintree:-
"“I always thought a rule of thumb was not to worry about having it over-watered, safety is the main thing to me and a little too much is better than a little too less.”
"“I always thought a rule of thumb was not to worry about having it over-watered, safety is the main thing to me and a little too much is better than a little too less.”
Yes, I couldn't help but smile at that. He derives no racing advantage at all from races being run on soft ground.
life is easier if you have 4 or 5 potential runners in each race and can declare the ones best suited to the conditions. if you only train one or two good horses you have to hope the ground is suitable.
In my experience the most moaning about going comes from ante-post punters not backyard trainers, who generally just take their lumps and get on with it. It may be that Henderson only ran Shishkin because he knew the upheaval and outrage which would surely have followed withdrawal. One way or another it is still the safety/welfare of the horse which should be first in priority?
I think that if the BHA/IHB made a rule that, for saftey reasons, all major festivals would be run on soft or slower ground for safety reasons, that would be OK. I.e., if the ground is naturally slow or dofter that's fine, otherwise it will be watered to soft.
Everyone would know the score and they could plan for it in how they buy and train horses (and how they bet AP). There might be issues with more/different injuries because horses get more tired, but that's another issue. The problem at the moment arises because the ground is seemingly manipulated on the whim of a CoC, major trainers try to put pressure on the CoC, etc., and someone will always be dissatisfied.
Everyone would know the score and they could plan for it in how they buy and train horses (and how they bet AP). There might be issues with more/different injuries because horses get more tired, but that's another issue. The problem at the moment arises because the ground is seemingly manipulated on the whim of a CoC, major trainers try to put pressure on the CoC, etc., and someone will always be dissatisfied.
But you will still have the issue regarding the appalling going descriptions. On the Tuesday the official going was good to soft where the times were telling us it was far quicker than that.
Even after all that rain that fell in Wednesday, Allaho recorded at time that says the ground was good on the Thursday.
Even after all that rain that fell in Wednesday, Allaho recorded at time that says the ground was good on the Thursday.
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