the annual speed test for novice chasers with several interesting candidates from both sides of the water . supreme winner shishkin is a short price imo considering the mayhem which changed the shape of the race 3 out 3/1 not for me .allmankind won well on his chase debut and interesting to see how he goes next time . could be a decent sized field as many will want to avoid envoi allen in the marsh . we dont know excactly how the supreme would have panned out if all had stood up and one at a decent price each way is willie mullins elixir d,anay who had some cracking form in top company in novice hurdles last season when splitting envoi and longhouse poet , 33/1 each way looks very fair imo. opinions encouraged fire away and good luck . i like a few bites of the cherry and hendos allart also looks a big price at 50s each way . selections elixir danay 33/1 and allart 50/1 both each way ..
Yes despicable like everything priced up by the bookmakers...I’m backing 2 horses this week for buttons who interest me at the odds but the way I read jumps both have got no chance
Yes despicable like everything priced up by the bookmakers...I’m backing 2 horses this week for buttons who interest me at the odds but the way I read jumps both have got no chance
Shishkin was very, very pleasing on his debut over fences. He just needs to deliver next March at Cheltenham; 11/1 double (any race) with Envoi Allen for a quick double would be nice.
Shishkin was very, very pleasing on his debut over fences. He just needs to deliver next March at Cheltenham; 11/1 double (any race) with Envoi Allen for a quick double would be nice.
Going to be interesting this year because there will be a bigger field in the Arkle this year, there's no novices handicap for any potential really good one to hide away for and no matter what Shishkin does, there will be more running in the Arkle to hide away from Envoi Allen than those who run in the JLT to hide away from Shishkin IMO.
Going to be interesting this year because there will be a bigger field in the Arkle this year, there's no novices handicap for any potential really good one to hide away for and no matter what Shishkin does, there will be more running in the Arkle to
Hard to say that by the time we get near March, which one out the two would possibly scare off more potential opposition.
Personally i hope that connections of horses that have proved up to a challenge of the Arkle or Marsh will run their horses. A bigger field Arkle with a few potential winners would be most welcome and a very exciting prospect, as would a Marsh. My gut feeling is both will be relatively small fields, i hope i am wrong.
Shiskin and EA both to me look serious novice chasers with potential to reach the very top in their respective spheres, but we have a while to go for others to stake a claim. Exciting times!!
Hard to say that by the time we get near March, which one out the two would possibly scare off more potential opposition.Personally i hope that connections of horses that have proved up to a challenge of the Arkle or Marsh will run their horses.A big
every chance shish and envoi could meet one day ,shish bred for further won a 3m point , 2 4 miles would be ideal for both hopefully a clash somewhere along the line. a denman kauto type clash would go down well with media and racefans .
every chance shish and envoi could meet one day ,shish bred for further won a 3m point , 2 4 miles would be ideal for both hopefully a clash somewhere along the line. a denman kauto type clash would go down well with media and racefans .
It would Foyles, but the way Hendo is talking he very much sees Shishkin as a proper 2 miler, whilst EA seems to be heading towards 3 miles. Early days, but it would surprise me if they ever met.
It would Foyles, but the way Hendo is talking he very much sees Shishkin as a proper 2 miler, whilst EA seems to be heading towards 3 miles.Early days, but it would surprise me if they ever met.
I think in a year where many horses didn’t go to punchestown, fairy house and aintree and other top meetings that we will be dealing with far less injured horses and thus more horses to take these 2 horses on with, with competitive fields in both marsh and arkle similar to the rsa highly likely...here’s hoping for competitive racing and good betting heats and these 2 horses will be beatable as the market is still betting on uncompetitive betting heats like past years...
we will see, I think people are mad wanting to bet these 2 horses at the prices available myself without all the facts, that isn’t to say both cannot win or be exceptional like their potential says they could be but the odds make no appeal to me...
I think in a year where many horses didn’t go to punchestown, fairy house and aintree and other top meetings that we will be dealing with far less injured horses and thus more horses to take these 2 horses on with, with competitive fields in both m
Shishkin is the timely replacement for Altior just as the latter was for Sprinter Sacre; Envoi Allen is heading for the Marsh and little doubt Gold Cup next year.
I do not think they will ever meet in the future unless their promise is curtailed for unforeseen reason.
Shishkin is the timely replacement for Altior just as the latter was for Sprinter Sacre; Envoi Allen is heading for the Marsh and little doubt Gold Cup next year. I do not think they will ever meet in the future unless their promise is curtailed for
Shishkin does look clear of the rest so far but 20/1 bar one on the exchange is surely excessive. What ever wins the Henry VIII on Saturday will surely be cut to 12/1 or so unless there are multiple falls. I am hoping it is either Allmankind or Eldorado Allen. 6lb is a bit stingy as a 4yo allowance at this time of year so it might well be EA who will love the uphill finish.
Shishkin does look clear of the rest so far but 20/1 bar one on the exchange is surely excessive. What ever wins the Henry VIII on Saturday will surely be cut to 12/1 or so unless there are multiple falls. I am hoping it is either Allmankind or Eldor
Hope it is EA too , merely to pay a compliment to Gumball who was (mostly ) vastly superior last time . For sentimental reasons Allmankind is acceptable too .
Hope it is EA too , merely to pay a compliment to Gumball who was (mostly ) vastly superior last time . For sentimental reasons Allmankind is acceptable too .
Luck seems to have changed for Captain Guinness and fingers crossed hes over the heart problem. Certainly looked ok, that was very impressive to my eye. Looks a big player for the Arkle
Luck seems to have changed for Captain Guinness and fingers crossed hes over the heart problem.Certainly looked ok, that was very impressive to my eye.Looks a big player for the Arkle
having put up elixir danay i have cashed out that bet with no loss thankfully . a lot of water to pass under the bridge and i was impressed by energumene at gowran , absolutly bolted up and won very easily and looked a usefull one right enough , might not have beaten much but mullins seems to like him and his jumping was very good also breezed up in his only hurdle run also at gowran winning by near 20l ,townend was impressed and said after the last day he would have no problem dropping back to 2m or he could easily go up in trip he has such a relaxed way of galloping . obviously a risk as to where he ends up but he has an entry over 2m at christmas at leopardstown and a limerick entry on the same day at 2.4 miles he is 5/4 for the 2m gig and 10/1 for the limerick race . he can be backed at 20/1 for the arkle which i have had some of each way . shishkin a hot fav here but at the prices i would rather take a chance with this fella each way .
having put up elixir danay i have cashed out that bet with no loss thankfully . a lot of water to pass under the bridge and i was impressed by energumene at gowran , absolutly bolted up and won very easily and looked a usefull one right enough , mig
Yep FR going Marsh i think. Hard to say re Allart. My guess would be Marsh as well if he goes to Cheltenham. That was very soft yesterday, and he finished the race really well. All his form is on soft though, it maybe one of those late decisions as to which race.
Yep FR going Marsh i think.Hard to say re Allart.My guess would be Marsh as well if he goes to Cheltenham.That was very soft yesterday, and he finished the race really well.All his form is on soft though, it maybe one of those late decisions as to wh
If he's got an achilles heel it might be that if he's put under pressure to go the pace in a fast run affair, he could not travel as easily as Abas did in the Supreme and got outpaced, he had to be shoved along at times but stayed strongly, he's was very much like Altior in that regard
If he is put under pressure by something setting a strong pace and forced to get after it his jumping could suffer.
A strong pace ultimately suits him as he's a strong stayer but he needs to survive the process of it to profit from it in the end.
He isn't the easiest of travellers through a fast pace race.
If he's got an achilles heel it might be that if he's put under pressure to go the pace in a fast run affair, he could not travel as easily as Abas did in the Supreme and got outpaced, he had to be shoved along at times but stayed strongly, he's was
shishkin won a point 3m? yes he could be vulnerable over the minimum i have cashed out my elixir bet and have had a decent go each way enermegene at 20s and to smaller in the marsh ,shishkin will be staying on but could as duffy says be outpaced at a vital stage ,may still be good enough but its a price thing for me .
shishkin won a point 3m? yes he could be vulnerable over the minimum i have cashed out my elixir bet and have had a decent go each way enermegene at 20s and to smaller in the marsh ,shishkin will be staying on but could as duffy says be outpaced at a
i think its the jock. i know he is not everyones cup of tea but i have got a lot of time for him, but he is like the ante carberry in that you often think his horses are going less well than they really are. there must be an in running angle here ... i wonder if anybody actually makes it a regular play.
i think its the jock. i know he is not everyones cup of tea but i have got a lot of time for him, but he is like the ante carberry in that you often think his horses are going less well than they really are. there must be an in running angle here ...
Shishkin was outpaced at various points in the Supreme last year and I'm defining that by not being able to travel comfortably at the pace the race is requiring without the need for the jockey to have to get after him, that happened. The jockey was so concerned that he switched the horse out wide to see if it would alter the situation.
budd,Shishkin was outpaced at various points in the Supreme last year and I'm defining that by not being able to travel comfortably at the pace the race is requiring without the need for the jockey to have to get after him, that happened. The jockey
Duffy ... have you watched the jockey closely. This is like an obsession of mine. i have studied this over and over. There has barely been a race where at some point it hasnt looked like his horse is in a little trouble based on the jockey movements. Its almost like a tick of his. ironically the one time i didnt see it is on Shishkin at kempton and i remember saying to myself there's been no tick yet this is going to sluice up.
Duffy ... have you watched the jockey closely. This is like an obsession of mine. i have studied this over and over. There has barely been a race where at some point it hasnt looked like his horse is in a little trouble based on the jockey movements.
the jockey pulled him wide because of a wall of horses in front of him,which was caused pretty much from a poor jump at 3rd/4th hurdle,he then got checked a little 2 out by a faller,never looked outpaced to me personally thought it was a great ride
the jockey pulled him wide because of a wall of horses in front of him,which was caused pretty much from a poor jump at 3rd/4th hurdle,he then got checked a little 2 out by a faller,never looked outpaced to me personally thought it was a great ride
Look at the way he travelled through the race compared with Abacadabras, I know it doesn't necessarily mean one is outpaced and the other is not and I also didn't mean to conjure up images of the jockey having to throw the kitchen sink at him either.
I'll refine my comment to "isn't the smoothest I've seen through a race"
Milton, I'll pay more attention to Nico going forward
Look at the way he travelled through the race compared with Abacadabras, I know it doesn't necessarily mean one is outpaced and the other is not and I also didn't mean to conjure up images of the jockey having to throw the kitchen sink at him either.
Was thinking after supreme this is gold cup horse,that he would step up in trip,thinking war of attrition and kicking King also Best mate. The 1st 2 stepped up after after an Arkle and were high class at 2m add in sizing John. The owner has Al boom photo who is 9 i think and next year shiskin could step up but Henderson has such a great way with 2 milers so can't see that happening. I suppose the 2m division is a joy to watch as is this horse and trying to find kinks that aren't there,well not with the opposition anyway. He is a monster from what I've seen and dare I say it could surpass both Altior and Sprintre sacre. Will he step up next year,very unlikely,but the only thing that beats him are the fences and from what I've seen that's highly unlikely. In reality the apart from him the division is crap.
Was thinking after supreme this is gold cup horse,that he would step up in trip,thinking war of attrition and kicking King also Best mate.The 1st 2 stepped up after after an Arkle and were high class at 2m add in sizing John.The owner has Al boom pho
If anyone is finding ways to get Shishkin beat, i suggest finding a horse that could be better than him, or at least trying to. I have had a bet on Captain Guinness for the Arkle......each way i might add!! He was going as well as any in the Supreme when the carnage happened, and has since ran well and jumped well over fences.
All this talk about outpaced, not the smoothest etc just does not prevent him winning, even if it is true!! Which for me is not, and agree with comments from MS and Gazo. I have actually heard the comments re Nico before. We also had this with Altior.....outpaced, flat spot or whatever, and it took a ripe old age and setbacks before he finally got beat over 2m.
If anyone is finding ways to get Shishkin beat, i suggest finding a horse that could be better than him, or at least trying to.I have had a bet on Captain Guinness for the Arkle......each way i might add!!He was going as well as any in the Supreme wh
Won a juvenile 2m Supreme, and the horse was outpaced? I thought Shishkin was shuffled back after the 1st hurdle. Then nearly jumped into the back of another runner; badly impeded by the two fallers infront ie Elixir and Captain Guinness after the forerunner jumped and swerved severely right at the 2nd last. Yet came thro to beat the runner-up who was going best of every runner.
Won a juvenile 2m Supreme, and the horse was outpaced? I thought Shishkin was shuffled back after the 1st hurdle. Then nearly jumped into the back of another runner; badly impeded by the two fallers infront ie Elixir and Captain Guinness after the fo
i am finding myself agreeing with everyone which is pretty bizarre. What Duffy saw and Bentring alluded too was a horse that was outpaced or would benefit from a step up. forgive the repetition 99 jockeys out of 100 and Duffy would be right . Nico is the one in a hundred. I would be absolutely fascinated to see analysis of in running patterns of all his winners and compare it with other jockeys winners. I am convinced he would have the highest average variance between sp and highest in running price. Duffy when youve had a chance to stalk him like i have for the past few years i would be absolutely fascinated to hear what you think... dont forget sir
i am finding myself agreeing with everyone which is pretty bizarre. What Duffy saw and Bentring alluded too was a horse that was outpaced or would benefit from a step up. forgive the repetition 99 jockeys out of 100 and Duffy would be right . Nico is
I'm an I/R player on here and have been from the start of my time on here but I have missed the Nico situation, I'm going to take note though, and as soon as they reach the top of the hill in the Arkle and Nico starts shoveling on the coal, I;ll be lumping on
MS,I'm an I/R player on here and have been from the start of my time on here but I have missed the Nico situation, I'm going to take note though, and as soon as they reach the top of the hill in the Arkle and Nico starts shoveling on the coal, I;ll b
On the jockey issue that catches you out, Milton highlighted Carberry, the jockey that has personally cost me as I continued to be fooled by him was A. Lynch, he'd sit their looking like he had any amount and I'd be saying, you ain't fooling me, until of course he did fool me, he then comes under pressure and game over...he got me everytime
On the jockey issue that catches you out, Milton highlighted Carberry, the jockey that has personally cost me as I continued to be fooled by him was A. Lynch, he'd sit their looking like he had any amount and I'd be saying, you ain't fooling me, unti
Harry Cobden likes to be prominent on a long rein and gets horses enjoying themselves in front and they are often much too short in running. Once another horse comes alongside, bail out.
Harry Cobden likes to be prominent on a long rein and gets horses enjoying themselves in front and they are often much too short in running. Once another horse comes alongside, bail out.
Siskin odds on doesnt appeal , wouldnt lay him either , not with the odds on shots recent record in the race. Likely to scare a few off and thus a small field.
Siskin odds on doesnt appeal , wouldnt lay him either , not with the odds on shots recent record in the race. Likely to scare a few off and thus a small field.
Agree irish, Shishkin on ratings is entitled to be short but novice chasers fall, get interfered with, get brought down, get injured before or during a race etc. You are betting on at least 4 things not happening before you start on the opposition.
Agree irish, Shishkin on ratings is entitled to be short but novice chasers fall, get interfered with, get brought down, get injured before or during a race etc. You are betting on at least 4 things not happening before you start on the opposition.
Vautour, Douvan and Altior all won the Supreme easily, and were head and shoulders above the rest. And, I believe (and hope) Shishkin will be another too given his superiority in winning the same race last season despite a troubled passage throughout.
Vautour, Douvan and Altior all won the Supreme easily, and were head and shoulders above the rest. And, I believe (and hope) Shishkin will be another too given his superiority in winning the same race last season despite a troubled passage throughout
lets not forget shishkin fell on his debut over hurdles at newbury, its fine margins ! not saying he isnt a good jumper he looked very good last twice but in the arkle he will or should have competition decent horses going at a good clip.
lets not forget shishkin fell on his debut over hurdles at newbury, its fine margins ! not saying he isnt a good jumper he looked very good last twice but in the arkle he will or should have competition decent horses going at a good clip.
Can any of you find out the name of a D Nicholson 6/4ish favourite that fell in the Arkle. Probably late '80s or early 90s. Only got to the fourth as I recall then fell a over t. I went to the racecourse festival preview night that year and was brave enough to stand up and say that 6/4 was too short for any horse in an Arkle and was well put down by the Duke who thought it was a certainty
Can any of you find out the name of a D Nicholson 6/4ish favourite that fell in the Arkle. Probably late '80s or early 90s. Only got to the fourth as I recall then fell a over t. I went to the racecourse festival preview night that year and was brave
As far as i am concerned the time to back Shishkin was before the season started,or earlier. He was always going to shorten if he took to fences and ran well. I never take the sort of prices he has been antepost,only in multiples,which i do have him in a few. And i certainly would not back a novice chaser at odds on.
Hes certainly the most likely winner but as said anything can happen in novice chasing. I hope Captain Guinness wins having backed him, but to be honest if Shishkin puts in a performance, i would enjoy watching that.
As far as i am concerned the time to back Shishkin was before the season started,or earlier.He was always going to shorten if he took to fences and ran well.I never take the sort of prices he has been antepost,only in multiples,which i do have him in
Sybillin was a particular favourite of mine that I was sad to see get beat at odds on in an Arkle, got it back in the Tingle Creek at much better odds mind you...sorry for the historical aftertime
Sybillin was a particular favourite of mine that I was sad to see get beat at odds on in an Arkle, got it back in the Tingle Creek at much better odds mind you...sorry for the historical aftertime
Yes that was it duffy. It was dominant all season (5 wins from 5) but got rid of Dunwoody on the day. He repeated the dose at Aintree. Maguire must have been injured. I don't think he was as short as 11/10 when they had the preview but I am a bit hazy after 24 years. I was not popular on that night but I was proved right. Those prices for a novice chaser are madness. It was the fence before the water from memory.
Yes that was it duffy. It was dominant all season (5 wins from 5) but got rid of Dunwoody on the day. He repeated the dose at Aintree. Maguire must have been injured. I don't think he was as short as 11/10 when they had the preview but I am a bit haz
Ive only got CG against the fav, and hes obviously got to improve past Enermugene before i start thinking about Shishkin!! I hope that better ground and Cheltenham will see him produce a much better run.
And i will have some too Foyles, if thats ok.Ive only got CG against the fav, and hes obviously got to improve past Enermugene before i start thinking about Shishkin!!I hope that better ground and Cheltenham will see him produce a much better run.
I lied!! i backed ED early on, but have more or less given up on that. i also have a bit on Allart,but not sure he will even line up in this race, could be in the Marsh.
I lied!!i backed ED early on, but have more or less given up on that.i also have a bit on Allart,but not sure he will even line up in this race, could be in the Marsh.
I had originally thought Energumene was going to be a Marsh horse, but that was awesome today. I really fancy this to turn Shishkin over in the Arkle. The scary thing is it will stay further and doesn't look like it will stop galloping. This is a seriously talented horse.
I had originally thought Energumene was going to be a Marsh horse, but that was awesome today. I really fancy this to turn Shishkin over in the Arkle. The scary thing is it will stay further and doesn't look like it will stop galloping. This is a
Energumene looked impressive. What a race this will be if Mr Mullins does not dodge a battle with Hendo and Shishkin? Energumene setting the pace, Shishkin bidding his time. It's who can quicken up the hill the clincher.
Energumene looked impressive. What a race this will be if Mr Mullins does not dodge a battle with Hendo and Shishkin? Energumene setting the pace, Shishkin bidding his time. It's who can quicken up the hill the clincher.
To me Shishkin's a confirmed 2miler, and a serious contender for the Champion Hurdle if heading there. On the other hand Energumene could even be better up in trip, and The Marsh could be an easier option despite the reputation of Envoi Allen.
Nevertheless, I'd like to see Energumene running in The Arkle to do battle with Shishkin. I hope they both turn up. My money will be with the latter given his Supreme victory.
To me Shishkin's a confirmed 2miler, and a serious contender for the Champion Hurdle if heading there. On the other hand Energumene could even be better up in trip, and The Marsh could be an easier option despite the reputation of Envoi Allen.Neverth
In terms of actual form Shishkin is only favourite for the Arkle on his Supreme win. There is little substance to any of his chase wins. It's all very well displaying vulnerability against second rate opposition in the first half of races but Energumene is a strong stayer and he looks a totally different level of opponent. Although plenty of Shishkin backers might like to see it there is no reason for Energumene to go anywhere other than the Arkle.
In terms of actual form Shishkin is only favourite for the Arkle on his Supreme win. There is little substance to any of his chase wins. It's all very well displaying vulnerability against second rate opposition in the first half of races but Energum
Agree, it's the indellible mark that the Supreme win has left that has Shishkin at the mark he is in the market.
Energumene's time was better than CPS today, ruuning the races side by side the Dublin Chase was ahead for much of the way before the Arkle finished better, this with Energumene being eased half way up the run in. I;m staring at the 11/4 and wondering what I'm missing.
Agree, it's the indellible mark that the Supreme win has left that has Shishkin at the mark he is in the market.Energumene's time was better than CPS today, ruuning the races side by side the Dublin Chase was ahead for much of the way before the Arkl
That's an interesting point of reference "impossible123", because some people seem to thing it is a common progression. Of course, Douvan and Altior did that double in consecutive years recently. But I cannot recall any other horse that has done so since Flyingbolt, back when the Supreme was run in 2 divisions (so there were 2 winners each year). This may be a statistical blip - the London bus effect where none come for ages and then you get two together. I have not got time right now to look into how many have tried. And I am not for a moment saying winning the Supreme is a negative (Best Mate and Champagne Fever are 2 that spring to mind who could plausibly have done that same double with a bit more luck). But I find it hard to see how it is a factor that makes Shishkin a likelier Arkle winner than Energumene.
That's an interesting point of reference "impossible123", because some people seem to thing it is a common progression. Of course, Douvan and Altior did that double in consecutive years recently. But I cannot recall any other horse that has done so
There was barely a second between CPS and Energumene today with one front running and the other stalking the pace. Townsend seemed to be practicing tracking horses up the straight with CPS...maybe mimicking Politologue in the race with Notebook. That’s what it seemed to me.
Arkle will be a cracker and Shishkin ran faster than Nube Negra in the Desert Orchid so both have timeform ratings with their more experienced Grade 1 opponents.
There was barely a second between CPS and Energumene today with one front running and the other stalking the pace. Townsend seemed to be practicing tracking horses up the straight with CPS...maybe mimicking Politologue in the race with Notebook. That
I suppose with the onset of the intermediate chase, it makes it easier, a couple recently have won the ballymore and then won the jewson or arkle or won the supreme and then the jewson
I suppose with the onset of the intermediate chase, it makes it easier, a couple recently have won the ballymore and then won the jewson or arkle or won the supreme and then the jewson
However impressive Shishkin might have been on the clock at Kempton he was only visually impressive after Gumball fell in a hole. I suspect Energumene is unlikely to capitulate in a similar manner.
However impressive Shishkin might have been on the clock at Kempton he was only visually impressive after Gumball fell in a hole. I suspect Energumene is unlikely to capitulate in a similar manner.
I think Shishkin is a very, very good horse. But I think Energumene is every bit as exciting. Certainly delighted to be on at a big price, and really looking forward to the race, especially if Allmankind runs too, which might not suit my lad, but will make it tactically all the more fascinating.
I think Shishkin is a very, very good horse. But I think Energumene is every bit as exciting. Certainly delighted to be on at a big price, and really looking forward to the race, especially if Allmankind runs too, which might not suit my lad, but w