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Oh right, so if Mullins won the GC next year then you could claim he doesn't know how to train 2 mile chasers?
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Bitterness??!!!
Why on earth would anyone be bitter?? I Just have an opinion on Mullins training chasers, no more to it than that. I used to say similar when Nicholls won all the big chases not so long ago, but seemed to struggle with winning top hurdle races. Maybe Mullins fans need to chill a bit, and accept that like all other trainers he is not exempt from criticism. |
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KV...another that continually looks like he's being introduced to a fence for the very first time every race.
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Yep, that's fair comment imo.
Maybe its the decision making that can be questioned? Rather than the actual training ability,which to me maybe makes more sense. Hurdlers going chasing...should they.....or not ? |
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Budd I have no problem with criticism. Its just that some here, when it comes to Mullins, the criticism is relentless and way o t t. There's no doubt there is an agenda.
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Duffy, KV is a novice who doesn't have the luxury of running in novice company. Given his obvious lack of experience his jumping is actually not too bad.
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His jumping is shocking and he shouldn't have even been in the GC for his own safety, the first mile at Leopardstown was a horror show, to get where he did in that race just shows the engine he has still and is all credit to him.
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Ok mate.
It does seem though that any criticsm of Mullins is taken as if its being directed at people on here!! Hes open to it like anyone else,and yes maybe sometimes people go OTT. Maybe some do have an agenda. Hes certainly annoyed me with some of his decisions,but then so have other trainers.I was not at all happy with Mr Hendersons campaigning of Oscar Whiskey and came on here and told anyone who wanted to take notice of my rantings!! Everyone knows how I feel about UDS not running in the Champion Hurdle,but how on earth can that have anything to do with his training of chasers?? Unless I am just completely anti the man because of that. That would make me bitter then of course. I hope my posts on here don't reflect that. |
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Don't be daft duffy. In Leopardstown he was novicey at the first 2 fences(it was just his third run over fences and his first for 2 years). After that he jumped beautifully - better than most of the senior pros- until he cleared the last ok but just didn't get his landing gear out. Again a novicey mistake.To call that a horror show is way off. He was about to hose up.
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I said he's got some engine to get him where he did, the first mile was a horror show.
In the GC he jumped 3 or 4 ok ish, for the most part he lost ground to a degree at pretty much most of the fences, when Johnson stepped on the gas into the last mile he was hopelessly caught out and his jumping went to pieces. Good horse, big engine...hopeless jumper. |
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Again I have to completely disagree. You say it was a horror show. He never touched a twig all the way round. He jumped a few of the early fences too deliberately, through lack of experience, but made no mistakes until landing wrong after the last.
In the GC his jumping was again fine, he made no mistakes until tiring in the last mile. Like a few of those who ran at Leopardstown - Our Duke,Outlander, Edwulf_ he never really travelled and pulled up.He just wasn't good enough on the day but it wasn't his jumping that beat him. If you think either of those jumping performance was a "horror show" then you must have constant nightmares. |
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We were watching different horses.
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We must have been. If you can point out what fences he hit I will go back and take another look but I'm sure I would have noticed before.
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I'm not necessarily saying he hits fence after fence, I'm saying that every fence is a hindrance to him, he climbs over them, he skews his back-end too, which was noticeable at Leop, and not just at the fence he fell at, he does not attack his fences getting in too close at several losing momentum constantly.
Just look at the point in the GC where Johnson steps up the pace, just when you need your jumping to be a real asset, he race was taken away instantly. |
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Mullins's just an average trainer of chasers. Even now it still baffles me why KV and TR were doing in the Gold Cup, the former a scrappy jumper and the latter just an out-and-out handicapper whose previous run was in a handicap hurdle race. Absolutely barmy!
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He didn't lose momentum at any fence. He may have a slightly ungainly jumping technique still but he gets from one side to the other no problem at all. There's really nothing wrong with his jumping at all apart from lack of experience.
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Impossible123. Total Recall was in the process of running a good race, perhaps third, when falling.
Five months ago he had a chase rating of 129 and a hurdles rating of 125. He then went to Mullins, won the Munster National and the Newbury Hennessy and then a 100k hurdle at the Dublin festival and is now rated 156 and 146. So I suppose that does really make him just an average trainer of chasers then does it? |
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firstimevisor
20 Mar 18 15:42 He didn't lose momentum at any fence. He may have a slightly ungainly jumping technique still but he gets from one side to the other no problem at all. There's really nothing wrong with his jumping at all apart from lack of experience. We were definitely watching different horses. |
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I'm actually shocked by that statement ftv
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Still waiting for examples of the horror show duffy
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I don't think there's any point.
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Can you give me an example of a bad mistake, or even a momentum stopper, in either race excluding the last mile of the GC when he was clearly beaten and tiring?
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I've often wondered whether Mullins' inability to win a Gold Cup or Champion Chase is simply an anomaly or reflects on his training methods. His Ryanair wins might suggest the latter, although, of course, his record in the three big Grade 1 Irish staying chases has also been lacking.
All I can add is the thought that all his good horses are good from the start; outstanding novices and bumper horses are his hallmark (as well as Champion hurdlers). Perhaps the "minding" of a good horse that Elliott often refers to does not occur so much with Mullins. He gets them ready to win Grade 1's from an early age and there is less to work on as they mature. By the time they are at an age where they could be winning the big ones, improvement has flattened out and they are found wanting. I'm far from convinced by my own argument, yet there is surely some reason why the pre-eminent trainer of his age has yet to win either of chasing's two greatest Grade 1 prizes. |
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He has only won Ireland's premier Grade 1 staying chase, the Irish GC 9 times. Does this qualify?
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And in 2016 he won 34 Grade 1s worldwide.A record that I can guarantee will never be bettered. Does this get him off the hook?
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Not on this no, why would it? Stop taking things personally. When we criticise possible stable laying thats having a go this isnt.
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Anyone who thinks KV is an adequate jumper of fences needs to be certified or a visit to 'Specsaver', I firmly believe. KV clearly gives scant regard to the obstacles and occasionally but surely whacks the odd few in his way; he's less fencing ability than even the likes of Finian's Oscar or Yanworth.
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Now Eric, there are more than enough Mullins knockers around this forum don't you think. I don't take it personally but I do think its important, and in the interest of fair play, that they are not always given a free ride.
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In reference to KV.
Someone said about Vautour's jumping......a complete natural. I dont see that with KV. I see a horse that does what he can to get over the fences but to me simply not a natural.Some he jumps ok,some he jumps well but overall an average jumper,who imo will always be found wanting at the level his ability as a horse says he should competing in. Hes one i would consider the decision to go chasing was questionable. |
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They are extremely well compensated for their efforts more than others can dream of. Discussing fors and againsts is what a forum is for.
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The problem with using winning Irish Gold Cups as an example is most of the time he has been beating his own horses.
I wonder how many he will win now that Elliott and others have Gigginstown horses. |
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The problem with using winning Irish Gold Cups as an example is most of the time he has been beating his own horses.
I wonder how many he will win now that Elliott and others have Gigginstown horses. |
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Sometimes horses who arent great jumpers can do it as the tiny Bobs Worth showed.
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It was in response to the claim above that his record in grade 1 staying chases in Ireland is lacking.
I take it then that that's an acknowledgement that he is prepared to run his horses against each other( because there are still idiots who claim otherwise) |
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I wonder if having so many good horses has anything to do with it all.
I mean trying to fit them all in,pleasing owners,trying to win as many races as possible,could lead to some hurdlers going chasing when they possibly would be better off staying hurdling?. Just thoughts putting out there. |
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Understand mate,and yes he does run horses against each other in Ireland.
Quiet often i have seen a Grade 1 hurdle with virtually all his horses making up the field,although normally one of his very best ones does not run,eg Fly and Faugheen. Correct me if i am wrong,but has he actually had top 3m chasers last few years. Djakadam fair enough,Vautour top class but went Ryanair,maybe my minds gone blank but i cannot think of any others!! |
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Sir Des Champs, didn't quite stay GC
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Having so many good horses all the time is not just a coincidence. Its a nice position to be in. Any trainer worth his salt would try to win as many races as possible,what do people expect.
You can have only one champion hurdler in your yard at any given time.Remember a few years ago when the usual outraged, impossible to please crew were calling for Faugheen, Annie Power, UDS, Vautour and Douvan all to run in the Champion Hurdle just so they could find out which was the best and which was the worst. Instead,but for AP's fall Mullins would have won grade 1s with all of them at the Festival. That was superb training although some said it was just Mullins being greedy by trying to win as many races as possible, as if that's somehow wrong. |
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That was Bobsworth year,not a vintage one that imo.
No surprise getting outstayed by him though!! |
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As always though,there is more than one way to look at it.
Yes i absolutely agree it was good training to get all those to win at the festival. For me personally,i would have preferred that they had all been trained at different yards,then i may have got to see races that i would remember for ever,and quiet possibly remembering them as among the best races i had ever seen. To be honest you have probably just mentioned 5 of the best Champion Hurdlers of this generation........or could have been. unfortunately only two of them ran in it,and one of them was because of injury to one of the others. And i do understand his reasoning,and i am sure his owners were happy. Anyway thats another argument and one thats been done to death. |