Finians Oscar

JLT or Aintree ???

Dead right Eric.
They went a fair old clip and he just couldn't go it.
Worryingly, for his supporters, is how far off these he was. He seemed so slow you couldn't think another half mile would see him mixing with the best novices. He's perhaps a touch short of top class.

Dead right Eric.
They went a fair old clip and he just couldn't go it.
Worryingly, for his supporters, is how far off these he was. He seemed so slow you couldn't think another half mile would see him mixing with the best novices. He's perhaps a touch short of top class.

Aintree next but horses confidence destroyed.

Power was fairly easy on him once he knew he was out of his depth. So I'm not sure it will leave a scar mentally.
He will be more comfortable in his fencing if going a step slower.

Have to be pretty poor to not win a race at the Festival with this really talented horse but it looks likely now after they p*ssed punters around last year on his running plans imo. Karma as a punter but sorry for the horse.

He was beat the moment the tapes went up, stable have had a bad day, it was too bad to be true today, so for sure I'd be giving him another chance, but yes, the JLT looks the right race on balance.

Ainchea, Golden Surprise and Ultragold still ran well for Tizzard today and Fox Norton won £32k for second in the TC. Most trainers would be delighted with a day like that. Finians the real bomb out.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course, but I imagine CT is kicking himself tonight. Looked a very poor decision to run him here, very early.

I thought connections admitted it was a mistake coming back in trip despite needing every yard to win over 20f the previous time. I also think connections were reported to have said the RSA would be the target at Cheltenham; if so, he could meet Yanworth another less convincing Gp 1 fencer at Cheltenham next March.

He has the pace for 2m5f but it may not matter as his confidence was destroyed today. He may find one staying on better at 3m where his sharp turn of foot might disappear at the longer trip.

Pleased he isnt in any bets this year thought they might mess him up.

I don't know yet what his ideal trip is, but it sure wasn't just the trip that beat him today. He never travelled at any stage and was tailing further off the longer the race went on. That run can just be ignored. Something was clearly wrong with the horse.

yep,i would be inclined to put a line through that yeaterday.
His next run will tell us more.I have never thought hes a 2 miler,but he would not have performed over any distance yesterday.

He’s far from a natural chaser, doesn’t jump his fences very well at all

I did not watch his last race however, the race prior he jumped ok but needed every yard of 20f to beat the 2nd whose name slipped me at the moment. Nevertheless, I think the RSA (if his jumping warms up thro' the race) would have a favourite's chance come race day; the conundrum could be...Finians Oscar or Yanworth - both non-natural jumper - but hugely talented.

entered at Cheltenham on Saturday.

Monalee will be favourite for the RSA

Are people just fooking stupid or what.   Hes a horse with a change of gear and more than a touch of class.   He doesnt need or want to be going into a gruelling RSA. He got outstayed by Bacardys in Punchestown last year.   It is like as if ye all want to ignore what he has won already over fences and done so impressively.  2m 5 is his proper trip.  They ran him over 2 mile last saturday out of pure greed because the prizemoney was good.  If they run him in the RSA the hosre should be taken off him.    He was brilliant against Movewiththetimes around Cheltenham over 2m4 and there was no reason to start chopping and changing.  They need to stick to what suits the horse best and thats JLT trip.   Never mind what race has the more pretisge or prizemoney.   Dont fook the horse up over prizemoney.

He'd have been beaten even further on Saturday if the race had been over 2m 5,and that's if he finished at all. It wasn't the trip but something was clearly amiss and they must have found an explanation for him to be entered up again so quickly.

I think it's complete nonsense when trainers say that a decent horse will win over any distance and on any going.

That said, Finian's Oscar didn't jump particularly well when it won at Cheltenham in November and seemed to be taken off his feet at Sandown on Saturday. I'm not sure the trip was the problem - decent stayers like My Way de Solzen had no trouble winning Grade 1 chases over 2 miles - and hopefully something will come to light in the coming days to explain the poor performance.

My Way De Solzen's Arkle fell apart when Twist Magic and Dont Push It fell indepentantly 2 out.   The winner was left to beat Fair Along who was ridden far too aggresively.   Alan King had luck very much on side after making the decision he did. Anyway Finian's Oscar has never been described as a stayer.   So i dont get the My Way De Solzen argument.  They tried Finian's at 2miles and it clearly didnt work.  They could bottom him out in an RSA and then they might not have the same horse to go to war with in his first all age year if they continue to sour him.  Said it before and i'll say it again.  If its not broke, why change it??   Greed thats why.

What has greed got to do with it? That run on Saturday proved nothing. He'd have run a shocker no matter what trip it was.

First time out Finians Oscar was having to be pushed to keep up before coming on the bridle as his stamina kicked in, last time out even more so over a shorter trip.

Why dont we ask Tizzard to stick him in another 2 miler just to show beyond doubt he doesnt have 2mile pace. Obviously everyone knows that isnt going to happen so can bluff away about the horse knowing they arent going to be made to look silly (again).

Anyone who has backed him for the Arkle just because the Coral employed Tizzards were announcing that was his likely target needs to just learn from it then rip up their slip amd move on.

The prizemoney for the Sandown grade 1 last Saturday lured them in imo.   Shocking decision to now go 3mile for the rest of the season after the horse showing them he's best at 2 Mile 4/5 furlongs.   Theres the JLT which is tailormade for him and they seem like thats the last race they want to run him in.   Oh, and guess what.   JLT is less prizemoney than RSA.   Why fanny about with trip when they know he's brilliant over JLT trip.??   Tizzards trying to 'milk' the horse for all they can get.

There's very little difference between 2 mile pace and 2m 4 pace.They go off at more or less the same gallop. All national hunt horses are stayers. They have more than one specific trip.

Wrong imo

Over 2m they are getting in a fast jumping rhythm straight away from the off trying to gain clean jumping momentum as a mistake gives less time to recover than the longer trip where stamina can make up ground. Ground against other speed horses much harder to make up with less stopping in front.
Brain Power has that natural 2m speed without being asked, Finians Oscar doesnt which is a massive disadvantage having to scrub to make him go faster than he wants early. He wants to drop in at a normal pace and settle into his jumping for the first two miles he doesnt want to race before then.

He has a 4 to 5 length kick at two and a half miles which he has shown often enough takes him away from most horses. Whether the extra half mile at a course like Cheltenham will allow his legs to preserve that kick until late is unknown. The RSA is a race where you really need to stay on galloping relentlessly up that hill and bursts of speed that dont last long are less important than at two and a half.

All horses are different.

You generally have speed horses at 2 mile, speed/stamina horses at 2m4f and stamina horses at 3m.

2m you are looking for a naturally high cruising speed throughout the race to just aim at the fences using little extra energy to keep with the pace and get into a fast rhythm and have a kick for late. Speed everything at this trip.

2m4f you are looking for a horse who doesnt set alight early and who gets into a good comfortable rhythm waiting for the latter half mile where the race heats up and the horses with a mix of stamina and speed will go on. Those having stamina combined with a late burst of speed best.

3m similar to 2m4f with extra stamina required which can sap the kick from 2m4f horses as the relentless gallopers push them to the limit.

Sometimes you get 2m4f horses who barely just have the speed for 2m and these are the unusual types, like Captain Chris, who dont lose touch enough over 2m to enable them to devour the hill. Other times, as with Finians Oscar you have a definite 2m4f horse who doesnt have the speed to stay in touch at 2m for his stamina to take advantage late.

Finians Oscar easily won a grade 1 over 2 miles. He's not devoid of speed and he possesses enough pace to have had a proper chance last saturday had he done no more than run his normal race.

If that had been 2m 4 or 3m he would have been lapped, so it wasn't the trip that beat him. In fact, Brain Power tearing off in front like he did should have helped, as it did with Sceau Royal who was switched off and produced late.

There is practically no difference in the speed they go whether its 2m or 2m 4 and when you get a hard pulling horse in front (Un de Sceaux!), the pace will be the same regardless of trip.

Ok mate i’ve tried to explain relative pace and we will agree to disagree again.

You keep saying no difference in speed over 2m- 2m4f..... if you re-watch any 2m Arkle, 2m Queen Mother or Grand Annual and re-watch any JLT you will straight away see the difference in the first half mile of the contest.... go and time the first half mile of each... and you will see the massive difference

Cant agree there-very little difference...certainly not massive and sometimes the longer race is run at a faster tempo.

All jumpers,by their very nature,are stayers.2 miles is not a sprint. As a general rule they gallop within their comfort zones and the pace lifts towards the end of the race, whatever the distance.

In any era, hurdles or fences, the best horses would beat the rest at either distance.

Did you do what you where asked to do? Time the races??? and you will learn the difference between both disciplines. Do the data and you will get the results.
Noble Prince is a hint, that 2 miles over fences/hurdles was too short but look what happened when Nolan made-up for the error running him in the V.O.B C.Hurdle.... JLT.

some strange stuff being written about this horse, personally i don't believe him to be a very good jumper from what i have seen...saturday was his first test at speed and jumping and he collapsed quicker than a cheap tent...he could be an expensive horse to follow this season and if i were them i'd pull stumps and go back over hurdles because things are only going to get tougher...i'm praying they run him in the feltham

Couldnt agree with eric more here.   How anyone thinks 2mile pace and 2mile 4pace are roughly the same is beyond me.

If any horse went off 2 mile pace in the JLT they would be a million to get home. Especially on the New Course which is much stiffer than the Old Course.   Although some people probably think theres not much difference between the two tracks.

joevalue147 i think you are talking to Arkle vouchers looking for a run. Little point in arguing with impossible hope.

Right,I've done as you asked Easygold and here is the data for the 7 championship chases at this year's Cheltenham festival

[b]Race/Winner/Weight[/b]                            Race Distance in Yards               Time in Seconds                 Average Time-Seconds Per Mile

Altior  Arkle  11-4                                                     3499                                                335.00                                      118.20

Special Tiara   QM   11-10                                              3499                                                335.40                                      118.41

Might Bite   RSA    11-4                                                5360                                                368.80                                      121.09

Yorkhill    JLT    11-4                                                 4378                                                300.02                                      120.61

Un De Sceaux   Ryanair 11-10                                            4566                                                309.60                                      119.34

Sizing John   Gold Cup  11-10                                           5790                                                396.10                                      120.40

Pacha De Polder  Foxhunters  12-0                                       5790                                                402.80                                      122.44



As you can see,there is very little difference in speed over various trips - Sizing John actually covered the JLT trip faster than Yorkhill even though he had an extra 7 furlongs to race.

No u didn`t do what was asked.......... the first half-mile of the 2m races vs any of the JTL....... u will see that 3.9 seconds+ some are run 4.8 seconds quicker in the first half-mile and some even 6.s quicker...... do you understand that the first half-mile of the race is so important for horses that want further than two-miles there race can be over..... and sometimes their price is three-times bigger after a half-mile gone.

How fast the leader is going in the first half mile is irrelevant if that same horse is tailing off in the last half mile.Going an even pace increases their chances of winning

The stats posted above prove my point, that there is most certainly not a massive difference in how fast horses are travelling at different distances. Its over to you now if you are trying to prove otherwise.I'm not doing it for you.

A heck of a lot of people seem to be missing the obvious with this horse. Regardless of what trip is his best; he’s just not a very good jumper of fences is he? Looks far from a natural chaser

The JLT is too hot a race with the likes of Willoughby Court and Death Duty both good jumpers and also stay 20f very well. As such, Finians Oscar cannot afford to be handicapped by his fencing against them. The RSA, in my opinion, is an easier race to win; Monalee is fav but I'd fancy Yanworth and/or Finians Oscar, if either turns up. I know little about Presenting Percy, and Bacardys is not for me either on given form and connections.

Im his biggest fan, he doesnt jump efficiently to win top races at this moment.

Should try him at a 3mile hurdle to see where he is.

Given that he won a PtP race, beating a reasonable yardstick in Mr Clarkson, I’d be inclined to think he’d stay 3 miles. Personally I’d stick him into a lower grade 3 mile novice chase and see how he gets on. Running him in the Dipper on New Year’s Day won’t really tell anyone anything we don’t already know.

The 2 mile issue has [hopefully] been put to bed, get the 3 mile issue sorted and then move forward with whatever the best trip is, or at least appears to be.

A theory (only my own I should point out) around all the really strange obsessing from Tizzard about FO being an Arkle horse very early on this jumps season, could’ve been that Sizing John runs in the same colours. If they were to go down the 3 mile route and it was a success then there’s only one race they could aim for next year and by then they could be aiming for a third GC for SJ. The Potts were notoriously demanding owners, so if Alan Potts told Tizzard he wanted a Queen Mother horse then I doubt CT would’ve risked them moving the horses from his yard.

Conjecture on my part, but if that were right then with the deaths of both Alan and Ann and with uncertainty around who now owns the horses and/or what will happen to them I guess CT would have a bit more scope to do what he wants.

If he wins the Dipper he will have beaten the current favourite for the JLT and if he wins in commanding fashion then he will be the new clear favourite for the JLT.   So,.... connections will have LEARNED that he is the best novice in the UK over 2m 4 without much doubt.  And having beat Death Duty easily at the Punchestown festival last season surely there would be no need to step him up and take a chance(this season) to see if he stays 3 mile plus.  I can see why people doubt his jumping but he seems clever enough to me and he got into a lovely rhytmn when he beat Movewithetimes,...... low and behold over 2mile and 4.5furlongs.  Willoughby Court will try and grind them into submission but i can see Finian's doing him for toe between the final 2 fences and staying on strongly up the hill to win in ready fashion.  Willoughby Court's connections may well decide to go RSA after the Dipper as he seems a through stayer and looked to have plenty move to give when winning at the Cheltenham Festival last year when holding off Neon Wolf(rip champ).  That's the way i'm reading it but obviously we all probably need a crystal ball to help us out.  One way or the other The Dipper on New Years day is essential viewing and what the antepost game is all about.  Good luck to everyone especially me and Eric.

had to reach for a bucket after reading your post joevalue what a lot of nonsense, still whatever helps you believe in your bet

joevalue i havent backed Finians Oscar antepost after the nonsense with announcements from Tizzards last Festival. Backed him on his penultimate run this season when he won and thats it. Not happy with Tizzards being a ‘sponsored trainer’ of Carols have found announcements on targets by them very bizarre.

Corals go 5/1 worst price for JLT so maybe thats the hint .

Might have Cooper back on board from now on?

yes deffo sage

Not convinced sandown was him. Wouldn't have done anything over any distance.

Think he's a bit overrated myself,not sure anything he's done on track warrants his very lofty reputation thus far.

Won the Tolworth well but nothing has come out of that, and his G1 at Aintree was a poor race and he was a fresh horse having missed the festival, and then didn't manage to get his head in front in Ireland.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good horse and may well be a very good one in the future but I fear some may be following him blind based on one or two good performances last year where the form has yet to stack up.

Hard to win any of the Festival Novice chasers if you make mistakes or even jump slowly. That makes FO and Yanworth poor value for me.

Between Finians Oscar and Yanworth, I'd side with the latter who has better form, I believe; he also finished behind Yorkhill in the Neptune.

I would take FO to learn to jump fences eventually as he has the scope but Yanworth is short coupled and not suited to fences imo.

I think wellchief's post is spot on.

Very good horse, but probably not out of the very top drawer. Couldn't fancy him for any race at the next Festival myself.

Clear as day 2m was too sharp for him last time. He also doesnt attack his fences, he is ok at them but loses ground.

If the festival was in the next few weeks he would have absolutely no business going there. Nowhere near good enough at present at any trip if this is now his true ability.

Did well to run that well after being messed around only a week ago. Horse doesnt know wtf they want from him.

Coral Cup?

Tizzard: "We'll go up in trip and put some cheekpieces or blinkers on."

RSA beckons, I presume. From 16f, then 21f and perhaps 24f next time - interesting running plans.

Do they know what they are doing?

Looks to me like they are trying to make a chaser out of a horse that may not be enjoying chasing.

he was only narrowly beaten yesterday ,a big improvement on his last run but some horses just dont take to chasing and may be he would be better off back over hurdles. a few come to mind in recent years  who didnt impress  over fences ie big bucks and beuvair dair and going back over hurdles certainly didnt harm them .......

I think 2m5f will turn out to be his best trip as he has the stamina combined with 5 length kick at the end of the race that not many have.

Biggest issue with fences currently is it cancels the effectiveness of that kick at the end of the race which hurdles doesnt remove as they allow him to maintain his momentum and rhythm without burning it off early.

I would keep him at 2m5f and see if his fencing confidence improves and he becomes less careful. Once relaxed his kick will return over fences at the trip. If he doesnt take to them after a few more outings then revert to hurdles with the Aintree Hurdle his ideal race.

I think it is too far down the chasing line to revert back to hurdling this season. Also, the only race open to him will be the Stayers, a race significantly less prestigious than the Gold Cup thus I think connections will persevere with him over fences this season.

They’ll persevere with him over fences, keep messing about with the trip etc etc but the fact is he’s been disappponting over fences and if they had any sense they would have reverted to hurdles and be aimed at the Stayers division which looks weak. He just isn’t a natural chaser, think he’s hit the first fence every run now

Post his defeat in the Henry VII Chase over 2m connections intimated the 3m Kauto Star Chase would be his next race. Instead a late decision took him to the 21f Mitie Noel Chase, and got stuffed (again). Similarly, Fox Norton from the same stable, from 2m to 3m in one go; baffling is too mild a description for behaviour of connections, I think.

Let's hope connections of FO put him in the RSA eventually.

Back to hurdles it is - who’d have thought that.

Good to see Tizzard finally listened to me, just hope he hasn’t soured the horse permanently

Oh dear - Tizzard has really messed the horse up.

aye where do you go now ?

Maybe send the horse to Henry de Bromhead.

I think his stamina was stretched to breaking point on this heavy ground hence did not get home despite going well 3 out; his jumping (hurdles) improved as the race progressed, and I hope he sticks to hurdles. If encountering good ground his chance of winning would improve too. Maybe a long rest before Cheltenham is prudent.

Shouldn't be going anywhere near Cheltenham. imo

The horse needs a long rest and a change of scenery (ironically HDB would be a good choice). Still only a 6 year old (by Oscar) so lots of time to get him back on track. Agree that it doesn't look like he stays 3m.

Breaking news. Finians Oscar is actually not that good a race horse.................decent horse, Yes. But stop dreaming about what race he will win at The Festival. He aint that good.

"Tizzard feels the horse “might” stay three miles after his operation and on a better surface than the heavy going that prevailed at Cheltenham on Saturday. But, for now, he plans to return Finian’s Oscar to two and a half miles over fences, with the JLT Novice Chase at the Festival as his main target."

Somebody rescue the horse from these muppets.

pmsl they're making a show of themselves at this stage with how theyre campainging the horse

The horse 1st ran this season in a 2m 4f chase, then 2m chase, then 3m hurdles...and now 2m 4f chase (again). Thank-goodness the Tizzards are not associated with the well-being of humans - I'd be totally confused and despondent, if so. For goodness sake, spare the horse further punishment this season, and give him a long rest to get his "mind" back, and start afresh next season.

Maeldun.

Oh my. FO may not be a super horse, but he 'might' have had half a chance of winning a race at the Fes if he'd been campaigned properly!

Given the pretensions at the start of the season for the horse, I cannot think of another trainer that would've handled him this way!

I'm with everyone else, put him away and start again next year, if you must run him, then go to Liverpool and stick him in the Aintree hurdle.

At least they came to the right conclusion in the end.

sorry tale allround

Think there might be something amiss in the yard,all the horses ran poor on saturday

^ Ditto - NTD.

i don't know why they need to keep going round in circles with this horse, just give the horse a break and bring him back at aintree in the 2m4f hurdle race if he is ready, there is always punchestown as well...

he can't jump fences and he has just run like a drain again this time over hurdles, so just back off him and take him to some tracks he maybe capable of running well at if he is ready...the tizzard horse continue to be in not great health, make what you will

Agree with those who've said either write off the rest of this season or aim him at the Aintree Hurdle, the season has been an utter disaster for the horse and connections to date.

No doubt about it, there's a virus of some sort in the yard. The horses are just not firing or putting two decent runs back to back. It wouldn't matter where or how they campaigned this horse he just wouldn't have performed in line with the yard's other horses.

Correct decision to aim for JLT.  Not much wrong with his jumping when he beat Movewiththetimes at Cheltenham in November bar the odd mistake(only his 2nd race over fences)but he did show that day on occasion that he had a ping in him.   The Tizzards made a bad mistake running him at Sandown and it was to the horses credit that he ran so well only 13 days later at Ascot.  I suppose it all depends what kind of a wind op he is getting.  There has to be a chance of him not making the gig with only 6 weeks to go but if it was only a minor op and he recovers quickly he may even have time for a confidence boosting prep run.  If he can show his true colours then he has to be a massive contender come the 15th of March.

Going full circle with the horse, he'll end up back at Hereford at this rate........give him a break, still has age on his side, don't push a bad situation into a worse one.

All the plaudits the Tizzard's were getting last year, new powerhouse blah blah, they've shown themselves up a bit this time round with how they've struggled to deal with adversity.

A shame Finian's Oscar cannot speak otherwise, he'd have said..."leave me alone until I say I'm ready until then buzz off!"

It is so clear the horse is confused, even if the trainer is not. Also, the Tizzards need to consider not repeatedly talk up their charges.

Good to see the sponsored trainers initiative paying off so well for bookies, but unfortunately the opposite for punters. Also got to love the wind op probably about to be used as his wind being the excuse for his performances rather than the clownish campaigning of the horse this season.

joevalue147 15 Dec 17 09:46

Corals go 5/1 worst price for JLT so maybe thats the hint

He is the forgotten horse, and with Willoughby Court an uncertain runner he'd be the value one given his rating.

If you can forgive him his last run, he could be dangerous. Maybe the wind op will help, but he doesn't jump well enough to pick up a festival grade one for me.

I agree, his jumping is a bit suspect - too careful was the general consensus. But no Monalee and Willoughby Court is iffy; he was just held by Benatar (receiving 5lbs). And I do not rate Invitation Only. The JLT could fall into his lap, if he puts in a clear round.

Only managed to watch the JLT a few moments ago. I think he jumped well apart from 2 fences. He was going well 4 out, and I thought he might win - what price in-running, anyone? I'd him in a treble with Footpad and Presenting Percy but laid some off at 8 here.

I think he's had one race too many; the 3m Cleeve hurdle "experiment" on heavy ground was a major mistake told its toll, I believe, as he had nothing left 3 out despite seemingly going well 2 fences prior.

I'm going to go against the grain and back him next season (no Aintree/Punchestown) only if he stays fencing and not 2m or 3m. I think it could pay dividend.

He looked threatening briefly before getting tapped for toe, he stayed on ok come the end, worth a try at 3 miles over fences I reckon. He needs to be fired at every fence, if the jock sits still he just misses it and loses ground, he's not a bad jumper when he gets his mind made up for him.

Needs to get out of Tizzards hands to have any chance of achieving much - though a bit like Yanworth he is just too timid at his obstacles to be a champion.

HaylingBilly    27 Jan 18 18:08 
Breaking news. Finians Oscar is actually not that good a race horse.................decent horse, Yes. But stop dreaming about what race he will win at The Festival. He aint that good.



Welcome back Finian's

Finally delivering after looking hopeless with those quick couple of bad jumps 6/7 out. Imagine what could be possible if his jumping was as slick as Footpad; 4/1 ain't bad.