Altior

You could argue, Prem, that there have been a fair few horses in the last 10 years that have got to Christmas of their novice chase seasons with very similar (or even potentially better) profiles, than Douvan at that stage of his career.
Al Ferof beat Sprinter And Cue card in his Supreme and had a couple of odds on victories in Nov Chases.
Champagne Fever beat Jezki and MTOY in his and was winning at long odds on early in that season.
Peddlers Cross, Neptune winner, came close to The Fly in a CHurdle and was winning novice chases at long odds on.
Un De Sceaux, again big hurdle rating and emphatic novice chase victories. He's the only one of these 4 that went on to win an Arkle.

You wouldn't find many wanting to back them over two miles, even at their peak against a peak Douvan once in open company. All the early potential in the world doesn't guarantee anything. I, like most here, hope that Altior is a superstar - but he has a way to go before he proves that. Winning the Arkle would be a start.

I maybe a little late into the debate but having just watched the supreme 2016 for the first time since when it was live in no way imo was min inconvenienced by his mistake at the 3rd flight! He simply did not stop nor did he lose any ground.
On the injury argument I'm not buying that either as if even a hint of anything Walsh would most certainly have pulled him up. I can see no reason for any injury incurred during the supreme also be the cause for his defeat next time at punchestown!
He would have incurred a cut (s) to his hind legs at worst going on the mistake. It didn't stop him.

I thought they had confirmed he sustained an injury in the race? Don't see any reason they would lie tbh.

Min didn't run at punchestown after the supreme seethestars?

RR quote:

"He was electric and I have rarely seen Ruby so animated on the run in. While we were beaten in the Supreme last year I think he had to race and battle for arguably his first time, and as we know suffered a season ending injury mid race. He has demonstrated a tractability and intelligence over fences that I don’t think we saw last season and has really grown up. Touch wood, he will probably go to Leopardstown again for the Frank Ward Arkle before Cheltenham and another battle with Altior who looks exceptional and is a deceptively big horse who really fills the eye – it’s easy to see why they went chasing with him. We have a bit to find with him but they both look better chasers than hurdlers and we are looking forward to taking him on again.”

Indeed, i was mixing Limini's form up with Min's

how embarrassing lol

Arkle is the only festival target for Altior. However, Min has two ie Arkle and the JLT, I wonder why the JLT given Altior's only possible reroute is the Champion Hurdle.

i see min not running sunday..strange

Willie Mullins says Min has banged a knee. Not serious & had even declared him initially this morn, but decided to err on side of caution.

I hope Altior wins handsomely on saturday in the Game Spirit Chase, if not, he could be Champion Hurdle bound, I suspect.

Is this running in the Game Spirit on Saturday - nobody looking to back it on the exchange .  Hendo worried about the ground or the opposition ?

He's tackling seasoned chasers for the 1st time eg Dodging Bullets, Fox Norton and Traffic Fluide.

dunno, but he went to the festival without a run after Kempton's Christmas Meeting last season and he's by High Chaparral, so flat bred, same sire as Hadrian's Approach who Henderson always says wants good ground.

Tizzard is unlikely to duck the race with Fox Norton.

So, he has his excuses (reasons) not to run all lined up. Though they might have put him in the Kingmaker but they did n't.

I think the ground under the covers will be tacky which Henderson wont want him to go in  - why risk him on wrong ground for a lesser race with the Arkle just round the corner on spring ground . Warwick is usually fairly filthy ground as well at this time of year -look what happened to L'ami Serge in last years Kingmaker .

Henderson says on Twitter that he'll be declared which is obviously not the same as saying he's going to run. I expect they'll walk the course after the covers have been lifted and maybe even wait for feedback on the ground after the first couple of races - although they're both on the hurdles course.

I think Henderson thinks like you do Minger - I was surprised that he pulled O O Seven out at Cheltenham on New Year's Day because he ran perfectly fine on heavy ground in the Tolworth last season but I think he sees more effort and risk in the energy expended jumping out of bad ground over fences.

Henderson is scared to run his horses. Lost his bottle a long time ago and any excuse he can dream up to withdraw a horse he will

Rather see him go straight to Cheltenham he's 2/5 now for arkle I back him at £100 to win any race at Cheltenham 5/1

It is running!!

Win or lose, I hope he come thro' this race well.

MACHINE

Machine with a brain - he is so clever!!!!!!!

That was superb so slick

Won't beat Douvan IMO, but he should be in the race trying to.

should just go straight for QMCC

That jump at the last

bit of a weapon ,that altior fella !

think he may well turn douvan over next year

He's beaten seasoned chasers as a novice. Has Douvan done that? Douvan skipped the Tingle Creek but instead ran in a mickey-mouse Grade 1 race stating at 1/8.

Should Altior meet Douvan (I hope he turns up) in the Tingle Creek at Kempton later this year my money will be on Altior despite lacking experience compare to Douvan; Altior is just so classy and clever.

He will win the Arkle then get wrapped up in cotton wool for a year to meet Douvan in 2018. Can't wait already

Had to take the 10's on here post race, there's going to be a massive urge to go for it with him and he'll be a very strong 2nd fav, worth the chance.

Just had £400 @ 3/1 NRNB, as he will only run if Douvan doesn't.

Not according to Hendo immediately post race; I think the Tingle Creek is the one to back him against SDR, Ar Mad or even Douvan (if connections do not duck it).

Why on earth would you run him in a QMCC? Enjoy him winning the Arkle. It's still a very prestigious race.

Got next year to beat Douvan.

hendo had the aeroplane now hes got the  rocket !

anything can happen !

NRNB is the smart play as he is very unlikely to take on Douvan at this stage when the Arkle is his for the taking.

The Tingle creek at Kempton will be a rare one alright!

Wold win this year's champion hurdle on the bridle

3/1 nrnb is an enterprising bet: should he go he'll be shorter at about 7/4; so Douvan go awol in the CC he'll 1/1 or less on the day.

My average bet is much smaller than you guys here, so it's purely to take a decent freeroll, should the very unlikely scenario transpire.

Just saw it as a chance to get a free shot at a grand.

he can go Arkle and have a shot @ Douvan @ Punchestown?

No chance Nicky will run him at Punchestown as a novice after a long season.

He blames himself for running Sprinters at Punchestown (after the 2013 champion and John Melling) and feels it contributed to his injuries. Pulled uo in his next race the following Christmas

It's a shame that Nicky went over fences to duck WPM's hurdling battalion at start of season as firmly believe he could be a multiple champion hurdle winner.

85K for the Arkle in contrast to in excess of 250k for the champion hurdle (ignoring how much more prestigious a champion is)

The answer to "why would he run in the Arkle" is put simply, because he would have one other horse to beat, albeit a very good one.

He's lacking nothing in education as he's just thumped the same horses Douvan would be thumping in 4 weeks time probably just as easily. If he came up short, so what? we can all assume the Arkle was a penalty kick without it sitting on the connections mantlepiece.

"why would he run in the CC"

Not a Freudian slip.

I think Altior will have a better turn of foot over Douvan should he jump the last a length or two down against Douvan. I'm also hoping they meet t x'mas time in the Tingle Creek as I believe that is where Altior will be heading.

The Tingle Creek is run at Sandown in the first week of December, not at Kempton over Christmas.

The race that you think is at Kempton?

I saw another post where you thought that a horse was a novice because of the calendar year.

Baffling how you go on with such authority in all fairness.

what a prospect  for next season if both altior and douvan both pish up on the bridle at the festival ,

Well I think if Mullins did have the Arkle at the back of his mind for Yorkhill, then that's out of the window now after Altior's run.

Altio will win the Arkle, Douvan will win the QMCC and they will both meet at Aintree imo

not impossible stars!!! crossed my mind

I don't think they'll meet at Aintree because the only option to do so would be the Melling Chase and I doubt Henderson will want to step Altior up in trip to meet Douvan in open company.He's only been as far as 2m 2f once so far in a match.

Assuming all goes to plan in the Arkle he'll surely run in either the Maghull Novice Chase at Aintree or the Ryanair Novice Chase at Punchestown but not both.

....

I wonder if they'll meet at all. Douvan could well go up in trip next season with no Vautour, they've always talked about him as a possible gold cup horse.

Aside from that, does anyone see any similarities with Denman? Might just be his looks, the little white spot, the ears and hind quarters, obviously a bit smaller at this stage and has to win the championship races but I think he has a very similar look

I agree Resner.

No way will they meet this year. Douvan will run at Punchestown and Altior Aintree. No trainers champ for Mullins this year so doubt he'll send any of his main stars to Aintree this year.

Onto next year, I expect they'll up Douvan, robbing the racing public of a great matchup.

They'll probably send Min QMCC, Douvan Ryanair and Djak will be Ricci's GC runner again.

I don't think they'll think twice about putting Douvan in the Ryanair if its an easier race to win sadly.

Anyways that's next year, let's concentrate on this first!!!!!

Of course they won't meet.
Probably not this season or ever.
Sadly, there are too many opportunities to avoid each other.
Imagine Douvan will be tried over longer next season once he's disposed of the third division in the QM.
Altior's presence would certainly encourage that, as would Ricci's aim of winning a Gold Cup (unless Djakadam gets there this season).

I guess it depends on whether Douvan can stay 3 miles.
Are we having Vautour all over again??
Personally I think, if they want to find out, they would be better finding out as early in the season as possible,so can fall back to 2 miles without affecting the horse too much.
Surely this horse aint Ryanair?? I do like the Ryanair as a race,but Douvan is to my eyes one of the best I have ever seen chasing,and that goes back much longer than I wish it did!!
If he aint a 3 miler,than leave him at the distance for the cream speedsters,which he clearly is.
Not many with his speed can win top top races at 3m and plus,Kauto did but what a star he was,and I dare say some could mention one or two others,but right now I cant think of too many.
They tried it with Vautour,and ended up with a horse that one a JLT and a Ryanair,pretty good races, but not races a horse like he was should be remembered for.
It would in my opinion be a real shame if Douvan did not go down in history as an all time great,becuase I firmly believe he can do if he is allowed to run at the distance where he delivers his best.

As for Altior,hes an exceptional novice who would at least get second in this years QM.
He will be right at the top next season,if he aint already!
If both he and Douvan go 2m chasing next season I personally think connections of both should not even think about avoiding a clash in the QM.
I said earlier that Douvan was to my eyes one of the best I have seen.....would not be at all surprised if Altior turns out to be as well.

Agree entirely Budd, and sorry didn't mean to hijack the Altior thread about Douvan.

I agree that he should never be anywhere near a Ryanair, but I wouldn't put anything past that lot. Imo they were just about to put a reigning Champion Hurdle winner in the mares!

I think they are all about numbers and records. If we are in the same situation as last year when Mullins has a chance of the English championship he'll be even more likely to go for the easy race, and sacrifice Min agasint Altior so they can pick up the Ryanair prize money; hope I'm wrong though.

I think Douvan can be an all time great, but only if they race him against the best. At the minute he's beaten up Sizing John and The Game Changer a few times. Beating Altior next year would be a huge step in cementing a legacy.

If they have King George ambitions for Douvan, maybe go for the Melling or the Bowl this year as a first step. I'd keep him over 2m for the next few years myself, whilst the speed is there.

As for Altior, he blew me away yesterday. I must have been the only sucker who thought Fox Norton might be able to beat him!

Imagine if both stayed over 2m for a couple of years and we had some Moscow Flyer/Well Chief/Azertiop races?

I love reading all your comments and opinions, on this Cheltenham forum, guys.
It really adds interest during build-up to the Festival.
So thanks for your contributions 

"As for Altior, he blew me away yesterday. I must have been the only sucker who thought Fox Norton might be able to beat him!"

No you weren't!

I'm not saying I thought FN would win yesterday,but I must admit I weren't expecting him to be blown away like that!!

Chief
If we could have a few clashes like we had with Moscow and co,that would be something for sure.
Keep hoping!!!

Cheers MD

The forum is definitely quieter this year,but we are having a lot less squabbles,and more of swapping opinions and views which for me is what this forum is all about,and to be honest, some of the people I have got to know on here I would rather listen to than most on TV.

imagine altior v douvan plus a field of about 8 making up the numbers , tingle creek, sandown, good to soft ,  the media  build it  into a kauto /denman type clash ,hype it to the max , ! place would be   be rammed to the rafters.

I know where I will be that day Foyles!!

soz thats assuming evrything goes as expected this season and both bubbles are intact ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^,

If he aint a 3 miler,than leave him at the distance for the cream speedsters,which he clearly is.

Agree 100%.

With the way things for gone for Ricci recently i can't see the connections messing around with Douvan too much. I'd say the plan is to definitely step him up in trip next season with the KG being the aim. Any stamina doubts between now and then and it's right back to CC pronto. What a spectacle that Douvan v. Altior clash would be but so would Douvan running in the GC. I'll happily take either.

Well, they could have that match up in 4 weeks couldn't they?, Douvan is there and waiting, he isn't going anywhere. Yes the Arkle is a great race, but in recent years (in no small part to the creation of the JLT) it is a great race in name only. Yesterday Altior smashed up the exact same horses that Douvan will be smashing up in 4 weeks time, strike while the irons hot I say, although I don't blame them for being a bit too wary of Douvan

dont think they will face each other if at all, till next season duffy, although it would be a great spectacle to see them clash in the tingle creek, perhaps in hindsight it would be better for racing if they avoided each other and remained unbeaten and then clash in the big one the champion both arriving at the top of their  game!

clash in the champion next season ^^^^^^^

They could Duffy, but when have you known Hendo to run a novice in a senior race at the festival?

Connections of Altior should not go chasing after Douvan, the more experienced horse; wait till the time is right eg Tingle Creek or next CC, but certainly not at Punchestown.

Duffy. It's not about creating great races for the punters and fans though. Are you honestly telling me, that if you owned Altior, you wouldn't want to go to the Arkle and give your horse the chance of an easy option in a prestigious race and enjoy another Festival winner.

You'd rather go and take on arguably the best horse in training... one WPM has said might be the best he's ever had?

That is what I would do subject to the trainer's approval.

CCM

I'm playing devil's advocate and whether you like it or not it is a valid debate that is going to receive a lot of coverage in the next 4 weeks although ultimately it probably isn't going to happen, but it is most definitely a valid conversation to have and not one to be dismissed out of hand as nonsenses as you seem to suggest. IMO.

I dont think it will happen but its more likely with the likes of coneygree and thistlecrack showing whats possible.

The arkle is really a stepping stone to the CC but if hes already good enough then go for it i say. Its not like Hendo can say hes worried the horse isnt ready for it yet, hes just pitched him into open company and he laughed at everything.

Makes you wonder if Sprinter could have won 3 instead of 2 and an arkle.

If Altior is owned by Gigginstown then it is a possibility meeting Douvan in the CC next March, any other owner next to zero chance, I'd have thought.

Duffy. Did I say it was nonsense? Just asked you a perfectly valid question...

No surprise that Altior's been left in the Champion Chase...to shadow Douvan (perhaps), but Douvan left in the Ryanair? What is the reason behind this bizarre decision-making by connections, to avoid Altior?

Post Vautour's late gate-crashing in the Ryanair last year it is not beyond the realm of reality, I guess.

Its not bizarre decision making at all. Its covering your bases.

What if Douvan falls at the first in the QMCC but is 100% fine? Wouldnt be a million they decided to run him in the Ryanair the next day.

For the minimal entry fees it makes perfect sense to cover all options imo.

I thought you were an expert at thinking outside of the box anyway?

Its typical Mullins protocol.
Final decs for Ryanair are on the Tuesday so a fall in the QM will not make it possible to run on the Thursday anyway.
Just wasting more of Ricci money with pointless entries.

They'll declare him in the final decs then won't they, then he'll be out on the morning of the race.

it's not unprecedented, Giggi declared Road To Riches for the Ryanair and the Gold Cup last year and took him out of the Gold Cup only after he finished 3rd in the Ryanair.

Be a bit chaotic if all those with dual entries did the same though.

actually thinking about it, did n't they introduce a rule last year to prevent connections double declaring for the handicaps?

apologies for hijacking the thread

Douvan's entry in the Ryanair is wholly disrespectful to other owners with horses that race bound, and punters. What was Jonjo's reply when asked on TV if the owner of Taquin Du Seuil would have supplemented him at £15k before the race last year? I believe he said nothing, but did just shrug his shoulders - actions speak louder than words, I guess!

Maybe Gigginstown felt they were "defrauded" too given they utilised two bullets in the race...thus the separation from Closutton stable recently.

Disrespectful to other owners

Thats such a ridiculous post. Gigginstown upped thir horses with Mullins from 40 to 60 AFTER Cheltenham last year. The fall out was about nothing other than fees.

If you look up the entries for all Cheltenham races you will find WPM has block entries in all races for all his best horses,as do most other trainers. You really need to cop yourself on.

Identity Thief out of the Flyingbolt, doesnn't help his Arkle prospects.

Looking at that field with Yorkhill and Top Notch to come out, Flying Angel ew @ 12/1 nrnb w/o Altior will do for me.

Ran really well last time and has an excellent festival run under his belt

The machine is back!

it's going to be a great race in the Queen Mother, Altior vs Min, just like the Supreme Novice a couple of years ago. I backed Min earlier today, not sure that is looking a great bet right now, Altior just seems to be flawless

an interesting article on altior by timeforms jamie lynch if you havent read it its on the timeform cheltenham bankers by tony keenan  on the horse racing home page on here .talking about wether altior is a back or lay ,read it and click on the highlighted" HERE "  some very interesting stats regarding horses coming baack from injury ,makes very interesting reading .

Altior was off with a planned breathing op wasn't he rather than an injury and wrapped in cotton wool because he is so special. I am certainly no expert but I think that is a big difference to coming back from an injury such as Douvan. If Altior gets beat I will eat the proverbial hat.

sorry my mistake a" layoff/ extended break  " not saying he will get beat or wont get beat just worth a read . he may well prove too good but i cant back him at that price and have backed min and special tiara . good luck !

I think 8/11 is way too short . He looked as if he was in for a fight last year and this field could be a lot better . Min is not far short of him on form .

Think hes much better than that Arkle performance.and that last run was very impressive making the Tingle Creek winner look 2nd rate.
Having said that hes too short for me to have a punt and i would be too worried about him to be punting on anything else.
No bet race by the looks of it........unless it gets really soft and UDS turns up.

Of course he is better than that .

As far as I know it is the same course .

Always amazes me when people think Altior would have been in a fight last year. The fight would have been for 2nd imo.

Don't recall too many horses with form reading 11111111111 having a breathing op, he looked like he might have improved for it at Newbury

He's beaten Grade 1 winners Politologue, Fox Norton and Special Tiara pointless over fences.

But Douvan had even more 1s before his name going into last year's race so I'll be happy just to watch.

With regards to people saying his least impressive chase performance was the arkle i might be talking complete boll ocks but seem to remember after the race AP saying that high chapparal's progeny can struggle when the ground is dead.