Douvan, Vautour, Faugheen

It's unlikely to be Faugheen. Not jumped regulation fences in public (if he has done in private, which I am sure he has, I would have thought that they would have sent him chasing already if they thought that was his forte). Champ Hurdle at his mercy if all is well with him.

Vautour was not considered "good" enough this year for reasons only seemingly known to Ruby Walsh. Mullins has plenty of others to throw at the GC so it is doubtful Vautour will leap in front of the stable jockeys selection (whatever that is).

Douvain will be aimed at the Champion Chase as Mullins hasn't won that either!!

Twelve pints sounds my sort of event tho so the answer would have to be all three hic!

He hasn't won the GC either! I reckon Douvan goes King George as a Vautour style experiment. If he's best they've ever had, why not win try win the greatest race there is?

For what its worth i think douvan will be aimed at kg and see what happens.

Very hard to have a strong opinion on this but I'll give my opinion anyway. What I would like to see Mullins do is send Faugheen chasing to target the gold cup. He has proven all he can over hurdles and dominated for 2 seasons, there is nothing else lefty to prove or beat over 2m hurdle races. Former point to pointer he was previously an obvious staying chaser before he bolted up in a couple of grade 1 novice hurdle races in Cheltenham and Punchestown. Mullins has already gone down the stating chase route with Vautour this season until he lost his nerve for fear of failure prior to the gold cup. He would look even more foolish were he to abandon these plans altogether and churning out secondary Ryanair wins with this great horse. Douvan to me looks every inch next seasons champion chase winner and has no experience over anything bar the shorter distances. In the short term I don't envisage him going anywhere else but the CC route particularly as Mullins has never won the race and UDS proved to have holes in him in this seasons renewal. In short I'd like to see Faugheen & Vautour targetted at the gold cup with Douvan for the Ryanair. That is vastly different from what I think will happen. Mullins being ever the pragmatist will probably go Faugheen CH, Vautour Ryanair and Douvan CC. Meanwhile his wait for gold cup success to go on another season.

I'd send Vautour to the GC myself although I do believe Douvan is the best horse of the 3.
FWIW I think Black Hercules should be the yards GC hope for next season.

Douvan will be aimed at the GC for sure.If he looks like he wont stay 3m+ then he'll drop back in trip but thats the road he will go. Can't see Vautour ever being asked to go beyond 3m. Faugheen will never jump a fence again.

In my opinion Faugheen will never go to the GC because he'll be nine next year, and too tall an order to compete with the season fencers; Douvan will not be aimed at the GC or KG either next year but the CC with UDS, different owner; Vautour, unless he changes stable, the softer option again ie Ryanair, and win by 100l; AP, the mares race again (or retire) but not the WH; Min, Arkle and Yorkhill, the JLT or RSA I'd think, and KG and GC 2018.

I believe WPM will not reroute an established champion of his to give way to a new "star" eg Faugheen for either AP and/or Yorkhill.

Faugheen will stay over hurdles and try to regain his crown.

Vautour will go for Gold Cup unless it's heavy in which case he'll go for Ryanair

Douvan will go for QM or maybe the Ryanair if it's quickish (as Vautour will be in GC). Un De Sceaux will go for the race that Douvan doesn't go for.

Yorkhill will go for JLT unless it's really soft imo.

With Limini surely going for the Mares next year VVM can be aimed at the World Hurdle (especially if Thistlecrack goes chasing).

Id agree with Vroum Vroum Mag but as for the mares hurdle I will be interested to see Karalee in the race. Ricci touted her up way back when he spoke on ATR. A Martaline will get the 2m4 better than the flat bred Limini.

After reading the posts so far its true to say opinions are varied, richi will surely step douvan up in trip at some stage this year.

I agree with gutfeeling about Black Hercules being the main hope for Mullins in the gold cup next year. Bound to stay as they were talking of 4 miles and is clearly quick enough for 2 and a half.

Although Douvan was excellent in the Arkle, I still haven't seen anything that suggests Vautour isn't the best horse Mullins has trained, at least over fences anyway. Douvan's Arkle was great but it didn't make me quite go ''WOW'' like Vautour's JLT did. However Vautour hasn't really put in a performance better than that JLT yet. Douvan still has every chance to put in a better performance. But on Cheltenham festival form Vautour is still the best IMO.

One thing is for sure, the pair of them are streets ahead of anything else Mullins has ever trained over fences.

Douvan being targeted towards the gold cup would be interesting but can't see it happening. Could potentially see if he gets 2 miles 5 in the race that Vautour beat Ptit Zig at Ascot back in November. If all goes well try out Kempton and if any of it fails re-route him back towards the Champion Chase.

Vautour's 15l winning performance in last year's JLT was visually impressive because Valseur Lido (VL) is not a 20f horse and certainly not on good going ie Vautour beat mediocre horses of limited potentials, and those behind had not won a race between them since I believe. Also, VL was beaten 12l by Djakadam over the same distance and on heavy going, proving VL is nothing special. I also believe Road To Riches (RTR) would have finished in front of VL had RTR no tried to front run against Vautour.

Vautour is a very good horse up to a distance of 20f, but certainly beatable over 24f or further even on good ground I believe.

"Vautour beat mediocre horses of limited potentials, and those behind had not won a race between them since I believe"

Apart from Valseur Lido who went on to win a Grade 1 at Punchestown a month later and Tango De Juilley at Carlisle a month later before coming 2nd in a handicap chase at this years festival on seasonal debut. So that's 2 out of Vautour's 7 opponents won that same season

2nd placed Apache Stronghold hasn't been seen since Punchestown when he came 2nd to Valseur Lido.
3rd placed Valseur Lido won as mentioned above and fell at the last earlier this season when looking to have the Irish Gold Cup in the bag.
4th placed Irish Saint finished behind Saphir Du Rheu at Aintree and has not been seen since.
5th placed Ptit Zig won a Grade 2 in Ireland on his seasonal debut.
6th placed Tango De Juilley as mentioned above won at Carlisle and came 2nd to Empire Of Dirt at this years festival on seasonal debut.
7th placed Splash Of Ginge has not won since.
8th placed Colour Squadron has won this season also.

Mediocre.

Oh and the above is before taking into account Vautour's run in the King George. Beaten a head by Cue Card on his first start over 3 miles and could argue that Ricci owned Mullins horses are not primed until the Spring.

Before we get into the argument about "Don Cossack would have beaten Cue Card/Vautour if he had stayed on his feet in the King George?" I wouldn't mind someone answering the question "would Cue Card have beaten Don Cossack if he had stayed on his feet in the Gold Cup?".

Again, mediocre.

"Vautour is a very good horse up to a distance of 20f, but certainly beatable over 24f or further even on good ground I believe".

On what evidence? His first run over 3 miles against the best chasers in the land and he finished a head second. Brilliant.

Vautour is as near as unbeatable over 20f as you can get, and I have never seen a better 20f horse

Spot on Paterson. Vautour's run in the King George was fantastic. Vautour is the most likely winner of the 2016 King George imo.

Vautour will be more vulnerable over 3m than 2.5m, because I think 2.5m is his natural distance, but he still has the potential to be a monster over 3m too.

I do not disagree Vautour is a very good horse up to 20f (maybe 16f too) but beatable 24f or more; Valseur Lido beat Don Poli (4/9) when DP was ridden from the front and not held up, and of the others, only one (Ptit Zig) was rated 157 but not run to this mark since - the rest about 140.

With due respect to Vautour's admirers Vautour has not run/beaten the calibre of Sprinter Sacre, Sire De Grugy, etc - it was not his fault may I hasten to add. If Vautour turns up for either the Aintree Bowl or Punchestown Gold Cup I shall then reconsider my opinion and assessment of the true potential of Vautour and eat humble pie if necessary.

As for whether Cue Card (CC) would have beaten Don Cossack if he had stood up one could not be absolutely certain either way. However, it would have suited Don Cossack (DC) more I believe if Cue Card had because DC could then show his true stamina up the hill - DC to me in the GC was going extremely well but had no choice but took it up with 2 to jump and DC was idling in front after that.

The  two questions to Cue Card's followers would be had CC stood up after jumping the 3rd last in front (1) did CC take it up too soon, and (2) would CC have lasted/held on to the finishing post? Let's hope CC takes in the Punchestown Gold Cup next month - DC target - along with Djakadam and Vautour as well then we might have a race more spectacular than the CGC just gone.

"One thing is for sure, the pair of them are streets ahead of anything else Mullins has ever trained over fences".

Think you may be succumbing to the hype here. Streets ahead as what? Staying chasers? Two mile champions? Intermediate horses?

It may be verging on sacrilege, but I was not as bowled over by Douvan as most in the Arkle. The style was immaculate but what about the substance? A six length beating of a modest field was fine, but both Vaniteux and The Game Changer might well have given him more to do and finished closer than Sizing John had the former not fallen. And beating Fox Norton and Aso by 10 - 14 lengths doesn't scream Champion to me. Yes, he may have had more in the locker but how do we know until he faces a top class horse? Like Un de Sceaux, the acid test is not beating up the second division. The form is probably a stone to a stone and a half off championship winning form and Mullins tends to peak his chasers early; they don't often keep improving, particularly the French breds.

Few would doubt that Vautour is established as the best intermediate horse but streets better than Djakadam? No evidence in my book and if you argue via form lines with Road to Riches you'd be ignoring the fact that RTR is crying out for three miles these days. I don't think any reading of Vautour's form, as opposed to the style with which he's won his races, supports the hype. In particular, his left handed preference would seem to limit his potential.

Is Florida Pearl forgotten already? I'd agree with cyclops re Vautour. He's a very good horse but he has a long way to go before he can claim to be one of the greats. Can't see this ever happening though. He doesn't have the best of constitutions for starters - didn't run after Cheltenham last year, unimpressive in Punchestown as a novice hurdler,looks like a horse that even WPM can only get spot on maybe twice a year. He could well win a Champion Chase and could have won a King George ridden less aggressively( although I would always expect an on-song Don Cossack or Djakadam would beat him over 3m). Over 20-22 furlongs though I think Vautour, when spot on, would beat most of them.
Douvan, however,looks a real deal Gold Cup horse if ever I've seen one and I'd have no worries at all about him going up in trip. Hopefully Coneygree will be back next year but he, Don Cossack, Djakadam etc. will be facing a monster in Douvan.

why do you think douvan is a gold cup horse,dont think he has been tried over more than 2 miles yet

He's going down the same route as Best Mate, War Of Attrition, Long Run etc. He has loads of speed but I can't see stamina being an issue. He settles really well. Time will tell but I definitely see him as a Gold Cup type

I'm talking in terms of ability at their optimum trip, a lot of the Mullins horses are hype trains but these two are the real deal for me. In my opinion in terms of ability Vautour is in another league to Djakadam, just because he may not have as much stamina doesn't mean he's not a better horse. What Vautour can do over 2 miles and 2 miles 4, Djakadam will never be able to match over 3 miles plus or even 2 and a half himself. And what has Djakadam actually won? The John Durkan and Thyestes? Vautour is a three time Cheltenham festival winner. The ratings will tell you Vautour has about half a stone in hand, ok that may not be streets but everything indicates he's still superior.

Douvan was not quite as impressive in the Arkle as I thought he was going to be but he was still very good. It's also not his fault he scared almost everything off to the JLT. I think Sizing John would have won or gone very close in the JLT on the evidence of the Arkle form and I think Vaniteux would have had to settle for third if he'd have stood up, but that's just my opinion. There's every chance a faster pace in the Arkle would have brought out a wider winning margin too. Douvan's biggest test lays ahead next season but no-one can deny he has an awful lot of potential and ability.

I've not claimed either of them to be greats, not yet anyway, but they're the two best Mullins has had over fences for me just in terms of class and potential if anything else. Part of that is down to the fact Mullins has never really had a superstar chaser before. Florida Pearl would have been the best yes.

Obviously we don't know if Douvan will stay further yet, but everything so far has indicated he and Vautour could be at their optimum over 16/20f. The acid test for the pair of them would be if they faced each other in a 2 mile chase, but we know we're never going to see that don't we.

The 2 mile chase division could be there for the taking next season for either of them, unless Sprinter decides his legs aren't done yet and comes back for another pop at it.

Have to agree with Cyclops and Satrus, in that I was particularly underwhelmed with Douvan's Arkle, much in the same sense I was with Un De Sceaux's Arkle.  This year, his Arkle run was pretty much confirmed as he was almost exactly the same distance in front of Gods Own in the QMCC as he was in the Arkle, so I think both were reliable runs.

In that sense, maybe Douvan isn't as good over 2m as we thought he would be?  That said, Sprinter was nowhere near his best in the QMCC just gone, and UDS is exposed on good ground, so I think the QMCC could be there for Douvan next year if they let him take his chance.

I agree with Satrus in thinking Vautour is in a different league to Djakadam.  Djakadam has had two chances in the Gold Cup, one on good ground and one on soft; he has no excuses.  He is a very good horse, and would win some of the Gold Cups we had a few years ago (Lord Windermere's, Synchronised's, Bobs Worth's imo), but I don't think in this current crop, he is quite good enough.

I think Vautour will be run over 3m next year.  Now that Ricci knows Djakadam isn't good enough, he has no other credible runner at this stage (Douvan possibly in the future but not now imo).  Also, Vautour will be a year older, so likely to stay better, and I don't know if the "not working well" was a lie, but he could be in better shape next year.

That said, he did get his ground this year, but Vautour will have a serious chance in next year's Gold Cup.  I'd love to see him at Aintree on good ground vs Cue Card in the Bowl.

Slightly off topic but I would n't write Sprinter Sacre off for next year by any means - he's relatively lightly raced due to his problems and Moscow Flyer won a Queen Mother at 11 beating good horses like Well Chief and Azertyuiop.

He'd have been even more impressive against UDS if he had n't tired towards the end and that could've been just lack of racing - having said that, would n't be surprised if they duck Sandown and we only see Sprinter once or twice between now and next March.

Getting back on topic, Sprinter v Douvan would be a race well worth seeing, though a pity one is now a veteran.

By no means should anyone be writing Sprinter off just yet. You can't do that until we see how he returns in November/December time. It'll be a very tall order but it's not beyond the realms of possibility considering how good he is. From what he's came back from that makes anything possible. The trick looks to keep him fresh now and that looks like a tactic Henderson deploys a lot these days.

Although I rate both Douvan and Vautour highly, neither of them will ever match the heights of Sprinter in 2012/2013. They would both have been left for dust. It's no exaggeration to suggest he isn't anything but the best 2 mile chaser of all time. I thought and said it before his win two weeks ago and I still think it now.

Back to Vautour, I'd personally just be happy to see him again this season, but if he goes to Aintree would they not go for the Melling Chase? Looks like a bit of a penalty kick much like the Ryanair was. Would love to see him tackle Cue Card again but we know what the trainers are like these days.

WPM will not enter Vautour in the Aintree Bowl against Cue Card when he has Don Poli in it with the ground likely to be good to soft/soft, and Vautour might not even run the Melling Chase given soft ground.

Yep, Mullins quoted on RP website that Vautour does indeed go for Melling Chase - don't blame him, he wants to win UK Trainers Championship and he has Don Poli who already has a (more or less)CD win earlier in the season for the Bowl.

I wonder if Nicholls will counter by stepping Vibrato Valtat up in trip to take on Don Poli in the Bowl, or is that the target for Ptit Zig?

DOUVAN for 2017 Gold Cup.  I think its obvious WPM would rather win that race than the Champion Chase, and as he didn't think Vautour would beat Djakadam this year, its hardly a heartwarming statement of intent that he is going to run in nect yards GC.

I could easily see Vautour running in the Champion Chase 2017, and Douvan the Gold Cup (the latter being the apple of WPM's eye).

I was only thinking of these 3 great Festival winners earlier on this evening, but with the angle of which one would have won the Champion Hurdle if they all rocked up in it, the year after winning the Supreme/Neptune?

I reckon that Douvan will go into next season in the same position as Vautour did this year.

With hindsight it seems that when push came to shove, the KG performance from Vautour put enough doubt into their minds for them not to run him in the GC.With that in mind it will now be Douvan's turn to take the KG route to see how his stamina holds up with regards the GC itself.

Throw into the mix the fall of UDS's stock, it means that there is at last a vacency in the CC department which would enable Vautour to finally run in the race he should have ran in all along.

A real shame we might not ever get to see a wonder horse like faugheen over the larger obstacles owing to the stables other candidates, ive had a small first bet yesterday on Douvan kg, every winning day going to chuck another fiver off the profits.

Surely Mullins has to run Vautour over 3m 1f at either of Aintree or Punchestown, otherwise he will go into next season still none the wiser as to next seasons target for this horse. Ricci has been messed about with this horse as he has ended up being shoved into the secondary Ryanair contest, and it looks like Mullins own personal assault on the English trainers championship will lead to him sticking him in the 2m4f contest at Aintree as opposed to the longer 3m1f race. Hoovering up trophies and prize money is the modus operandi of this operation at the expense of the horses themselves. If he runs him over 3m1f in either of Aintree or Punchestown then he will be sure in his mind that Vautour should be dropped back down in trip and go for the CC with him next season. Instead he will probably go into next seaon with even more questions and speculation around his horses targets.

Can you believe WPM has entered Douvan in the Manifesto (20f) and Maghull Chase (16) at Aintree next week? What is the point?

What is the point in what ?

Its another " Willie Mullins Has No Idea Where To Place His Horses" thread. Impossible will be back to explain what he's doing wrong

I don't think he's actually entered Douvan in the 2 mile race yet as entries won't be published until Monday but I'm sure he will - keeps the opposition guessing and his options open so nothing wrong with that - bumper entry for the Manifesto which is great to see - L'Ami Serge might get the trip better on a flatter track and Arzal looks the most interesting of those who did n't run at Cheltenham.

More notable from WPM perspective is that Shaneshill is entered in the Manifesto and Black Hercules is n't - so it looks like he's swapping them around trip wise from Cheltenham which may again be related to the track configuration, unless something is amiss with Black Hercules?

Scandalous that one or two bookmakers are still quoting BH at 7/4 and 2/1 for Manifesto when he's not even entered, don't think you can blame Mullins for that!

Mar 30, 2016 -- 2:02PM, houseofpain wrote:

A real shame we might not ever get to see a wonder horse like faugheen over the larger obstacles owing to the stables other candidates, ive had a small first bet yesterday on Douvan kg, every winning day going to chuck another fiver off the profits.

Douvan really needs to be stepped up in trip now cant keep beating the same horses, plus ive had four fivers on already at 8's and 7's lol.

Now had a fifty on Douvan for KG at average of 9, bring on sat and chepstow..

Houseofpain, Ive been doing the same for the Gold cup!

JB23, me too for the Gold Cup. Even more interested in Douvan being placed in the direction now Gigginstown are in opposition, and not stablemates.

I'd be shocked if Douvan is not trained for the Champion Chase. The owner and trainer have loads of ammo for the staying chases and Douvan the standout 2m novice chaser from last season look ideal to dominate at the distance where the competition is ordinary enough (Sprinter Sacre aside).

Yeah I agree SoYouThink. My View is just that if Douvan does end up running in the Gold Cup, then he certainly won't be a 14-1 shot which he is now because he will have already proved he stays 3M+(King George). I agree there is probably a 75/80% chance he doesn't run, but I'm more than happy to take that risk to be on a horse with Douvans talent at 14s.

Thats just my approach to antepost punting tho, trying to beat the SP in 5 months time,

Douvan - Champion Chase
Vautour - Gold Cup
Faugheen - Stayers Hurdle
Annie Power - Champion Hurdle


all 4 favs, 3 very short, 2 definitely odds on

Ricci has admitted he is tempted by a tilt at the King George VI Chase at Kempton with the brilliant Douvan,...showboating or a grain of truth in it?

That may be Ricci's thoughts at the moment but I suspect Ruby and Willie will decide the route the horse takes and I'd still be amazed if Douvan is stepped up in trip with the two mile division at his mercy.

Faugheen, Douvan and Vautour all to win at the Cheltenham Festival 2017 (any race) is 10/1 which is not bad (I think) especially if Faugheen (Champion Hurdle), Douvan (Queen Mother) and Vautour (Ryanair).

Guess we will never no, was a great horse to watch at cruising speed around prestbury..

"But I would say right now we will stick to two miles and maybe step up in trip for something like the King George, but the Cheltenham target would most likely be the Champion Chase." RR.

Getting 3 horses to Cheltenham is never easy, winning 3 races is much more difficult. Very sad to lose Vautour but it once again illustrates that it is even money picking a runner at the festival in October, never mind a winner.