Cheltenham Festival
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11 Mar 16
15:47
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Date Joined:
04 Oct 09
IMO there is no skullduggery at all with jockey and trainer. People talk through their pockets a heck of a lot and of course politics in this yard can be, well to be polite a bit conservative as far as punter's interests go, their jobs are hard enough without thinking also about us punters.
Why do you think certain bookmakers have introduced the 'To Win Any Race at the Cheltenham Festival' markets
Surely these markets cannot be big profit makers for these firms? In fact i would go as far as to say that they probably lose on these types of markets, especially hills with their each way offerings as well, they do often forget about this market through the season too.
But i feel its more to do with jockey availability as the fez gets closer as regards where some horses end up imo. Walsh can only ride one horse in each race obviously but it will depend a lot more on who WPM can secure to ride x in the same race. It appears that when reading all the negative comments on here regarding the placing of said horses that this rather small and insignificant detail is lacking, therefore a lot of times it is mere pocket talking.
Why do you think certain bookmakers have introduced the 'To Win Any Race at the Cheltenham Festival' markets
Surely these markets cannot be big profit makers for these firms? In fact i would go as far as to say that they probably lose on these types of markets, especially hills with their each way offerings as well, they do often forget about this market through the season too.But i feel its more to do with jockey availability as the fez gets closer as regards where some horses end up imo. Walsh can only ride one horse in each race obviously but it will depend a lot more on who WPM can secure to ride x in the same race. It appears that when reading all the negative comments on here regarding the placing of said horses that this rather small and insignificant detail is lacking, therefore a lot of times it is mere pocket talking.
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No skullduggery, just a simple case of having so many horses and not enough races leading to too much tooing and froing that they ultimately end up disappearing up their own ar5es.
Completely disagree about 'Win any Race' markets. Reduces their liability on any race and encourages trade. I reckon they are very profitable pro-rata
I'm sure the bookies don't make the to win any race market out of the goodness of their hearts. They wouldn't have them if they didn't make money on them.
The splitting of the horses up is purely so Ruby can ride as many favs throughout the festival as possible. If Yorkhill goes the Neptune after Willie said only last week he'll head to the Supreme, what more evidence do you need? Ruby wants to ride them both him and Min and he'll probably get his own way.
Sod all those who took the 14's on Yorkhill for the Supreme on the back of this.
This situation would work for me, because I said on here a few times, when Paddy Power do the opposite of what Willie has said, there is something fishy going on. I backed Yorkhill nrnb for the Neptune on the back of it, which says everything to me about the credibility the yard has when they open their mouths and talk about targets.
The splitting of the horses up is purely so Ruby can ride as many favs throughout the festival as possible. If Yorkhill goes the Neptune after Willie said only last week he'll head to the Supreme, what more evidence do you need? Ruby wants to ride them both him and Min and he'll probably get his own way.
Sod all those who took the 14's on Yorkhill for the Supreme on the back of this.
This situation would work for me, because I said on here a few times, when Paddy Power do the opposite of what Willie has said, there is something fishy going on. I backed Yorkhill nrnb for the Neptune on the back of it, which says everything to me about the credibility the yard has when they open their mouths and talk about targets.
If these any race markets were so profitable, why haven't all the firms on oddschecker introduced them?
As far as RW is concerned he doesn't ride every fav at the fez! He gets on the best horses in the yard regardless of how many WPM horses lines up in each race and to give them and their owners the best possible chance of a festival winner. It has already been said and proven that 2 miles on irish bad ground can equate to 2.5 miles around Cheltenham on good ground, this seems to get forgotten about also.
I have always thought Yorkhills best chance was the Neptune in any case, it wont effect me either i have a any race ticket and a small bet at 16s neptune so would prefer him in that and the lucky i have with him in it will equate to a 15 as opposed to a 31. Yanworth wins that race anyways.
ALSO
Patrick was on ATR in Jan saying his dad cannot even make his mind up on what to have for breakfast every morning so to say that them in this yard do it solely to p!ss punters off is quite frankly ridiculous!!! The very fact that any racing yard's first 2nd 3rd or even 5th thought would be punters is just frankly ridiculous! You pays your money you takes your chance!!
And i have a few non runners backed, some are in different races, Barters Hill i backed in the neptune e.g, from this yard i generally only play in the any race markets due to the shear number of animals they have before and after Xmas being possibly aimed at the festival and thinking about the number of available jockeys, that alone must give quite a few yards headaches, let alone WPM who seem to have too many top horses at the moment!!
I have taken a couple of chances, i do every year, my stakes though reflect them. I took Gangster proper ages ago in the potato race at 16s and Arctic Fire i played very small bet in WH at 33s about a week before he was being tried over the distance.
But i'm not bitter. I'm not bitter because i can relate to how difficult and logistical nightmare it must be. Can see why WPM has his policy of you paying me to do a job too. In my job i have to sometimes place emphasis on what would bring the best outcome for me and the company i work for. Some days i wish i never got out of bed!! And sometimes im actually sleeping in the effing car cos i got it so wrong!!
As far as RW is concerned he doesn't ride every fav at the fez! He gets on the best horses in the yard regardless of how many WPM horses lines up in each race and to give them and their owners the best possible chance of a festival winner. It has already been said and proven that 2 miles on irish bad ground can equate to 2.5 miles around Cheltenham on good ground, this seems to get forgotten about also.
I have always thought Yorkhills best chance was the Neptune in any case, it wont effect me either i have a any race ticket and a small bet at 16s neptune so would prefer him in that and the lucky i have with him in it will equate to a 15 as opposed to a 31. Yanworth wins that race anyways.
ALSO
Patrick was on ATR in Jan saying his dad cannot even make his mind up on what to have for breakfast every morning so to say that them in this yard do it solely to p!ss punters off is quite frankly ridiculous!!! The very fact that any racing yard's first 2nd 3rd or even 5th thought would be punters is just frankly ridiculous! You pays your money you takes your chance!!
And i have a few non runners backed, some are in different races, Barters Hill i backed in the neptune e.g, from this yard i generally only play in the any race markets due to the shear number of animals they have before and after Xmas being possibly aimed at the festival and thinking about the number of available jockeys, that alone must give quite a few yards headaches, let alone WPM who seem to have too many top horses at the moment!!
I have taken a couple of chances, i do every year, my stakes though reflect them. I took Gangster proper ages ago in the potato race at 16s and Arctic Fire i played very small bet in WH at 33s about a week before he was being tried over the distance.
But i'm not bitter. I'm not bitter because i can relate to how difficult and logistical nightmare it must be. Can see why WPM has his policy of you paying me to do a job too. In my job i have to sometimes place emphasis on what would bring the best outcome for me and the company i work for. Some days i wish i never got out of bed!! And sometimes im actually sleeping in the effing car cos i got it so wrong!!
I can't really be bothered getting into another Willie Mullins argument sorry mate. I've backed a ton of his: Black Hercules, Roi de Francs, Faugheen, Long Dog, Yorkhill, VVM, Footpad, Bellshill, Lets Dance, Killultagh Vic.
It doesn't help when he enters everything in everything; maybe the days of training a horse for one race at Cheltenham are long gone and we just have to accept that - again that comes back down to the demise of antepost punting though, because AP punters don't stand a chance.
He is keeping his options open, and he is fully entitled to do that. He is looking after his owners, and exploring all options to the last minute, but punters must have to accept if you back antepost, an AP ticket on a Mullins horse carrys a hell of a lot more risk than any other trainer currently operating.
Re the Any Race markets - I think the bookies will be bringing them out more, because punters are giving away half their odds from the outset, so they'll love them. Yes, bets on Yorkhill, Barters Hill etc for any race are all ok now, but you probably took a fraction of the odds that you could have got because you didn't know the target.
It doesn't help when he enters everything in everything; maybe the days of training a horse for one race at Cheltenham are long gone and we just have to accept that - again that comes back down to the demise of antepost punting though, because AP punters don't stand a chance.
He is keeping his options open, and he is fully entitled to do that. He is looking after his owners, and exploring all options to the last minute, but punters must have to accept if you back antepost, an AP ticket on a Mullins horse carrys a hell of a lot more risk than any other trainer currently operating.
Re the Any Race markets - I think the bookies will be bringing them out more, because punters are giving away half their odds from the outset, so they'll love them. Yes, bets on Yorkhill, Barters Hill etc for any race are all ok now, but you probably took a fraction of the odds that you could have got because you didn't know the target.
On the contrary mate, the any race markets especially the one ran by hills very often get forgotten about. When i took the 10s on Yorkhill he was 12s for the supreme and 16s for the neptune at the time of placement. Buvair Dair was 20s any race and 25s for the supreme. More of That was 6s any race and 11/2 in a place for the RSA after his win in December 
! Shantou Village was 10/1 any race, 12/1 for potato and 16s for neptune, similar to what Barters was.
You could have had all of this in November/December
My most recent any race bet was Yanworth, who was 9s but i missed the 12s that was available two days prior to bet placement and the day before he ran last time, he was 12s for the neptune at the same time!!
There is no chance these firms make a whole heap on these types of markets, like ive said above if there was money to be made then most firms would be in on it. Bet£365 was going to introduce a market, priced up 1 horse and then within a few days it was gone! I can't remember what horse it was as i didn't write that down, but it was there, i have it written down in my notes just to watch out for this market to properly appear! Imo these markets have only been introduced to spice up the festival antepost, which in normal circumstances would be a miles bigger turnaround than they will be experiencing now. Of course the introduction of a 4 day festival has a small part to play but it's not solely that, if it was then again we would see more bookmakers offering these markets every year and the first year we would have seen it would have been either the 1st or 2nd year, not the 5th! It has much more to do with the likes of WPM monopolising the training ranks!
These markets will disappear again eventually! I can see a day where it becomes easier to pick a race again, that day will come when owners spread their horses around more evenly and/or the number of proper top rated animals dwindles again as it did in the early noughties! We are living through an era for British horse racing where we are being spoilt by the shear number of proper top rated horses! Enjoy it while it lasts is what i say!!
! Shantou Village was 10/1 any race, 12/1 for potato and 16s for neptune, similar to what Barters was. You could have had all of this in November/December
My most recent any race bet was Yanworth, who was 9s but i missed the 12s that was available two days prior to bet placement and the day before he ran last time, he was 12s for the neptune at the same time!!
There is no chance these firms make a whole heap on these types of markets, like ive said above if there was money to be made then most firms would be in on it. Bet£365 was going to introduce a market, priced up 1 horse and then within a few days it was gone! I can't remember what horse it was as i didn't write that down, but it was there, i have it written down in my notes just to watch out for this market to properly appear! Imo these markets have only been introduced to spice up the festival antepost, which in normal circumstances would be a miles bigger turnaround than they will be experiencing now. Of course the introduction of a 4 day festival has a small part to play but it's not solely that, if it was then again we would see more bookmakers offering these markets every year and the first year we would have seen it would have been either the 1st or 2nd year, not the 5th! It has much more to do with the likes of WPM monopolising the training ranks!
These markets will disappear again eventually! I can see a day where it becomes easier to pick a race again, that day will come when owners spread their horses around more evenly and/or the number of proper top rated animals dwindles again as it did in the early noughties! We are living through an era for British horse racing where we are being spoilt by the shear number of proper top rated horses! Enjoy it while it lasts is what i say!!
Its a load of bawloxx and completely disrespectful to the punting public. After all there would be no racing if there was no gambling on it.
The Supreme Novices is on in 3 days time, there is going to be no rain of any consequence in the meantime, yet still the public are kept waiting.
The Supreme Novices is on in 3 days time, there is going to be no rain of any consequence in the meantime, yet still the public are kept waiting.
No issue whatsoever with Mullins, or any other trainer, waiting till the last minute to decide, but they, and their owners, jockeys, stable lads etc, should stick to that and not suggest to the press or at preview evenings that they 'are leaning towards' a particular race and then for no legitimate reason change their mind. What they say affects markets and if this was the stock exchange they would not be allowed to get away with it.
I expect the Yorkhill 'going for Supreme' shenanigans were simply done do they could get better prices on the Min / Yorkhill double.
I expect the Yorkhill 'going for Supreme' shenanigans were simply done do they could get better prices on the Min / Yorkhill double.
But why can't we just enjoy the racing for what it is instead of worrying over effing betting
Am sorry but them who talk through their pockets really get my goat up, i am guilty of it at times, i will admit this but i always start my posts with pocket talking but and it's always in good nature cos i understand the potential pitfalls
Am sorry but them who talk through their pockets really get my goat up, i am guilty of it at times, i will admit this but i always start my posts with pocket talking but and it's always in good nature cos i understand the potential pitfalls
Some in the game seem to think punters don't matter,the way we are treated with contempt at times.
As you say,without us they have no sport.
As you say,without us they have no sport.
STS, the vast majority of all posts on this forum are by people who enjoy the racing and talking about a race six months in advance.
Only a small number of threads/posts are moaning about targets being changed, and it just happens that these have been recently, because a few targets have been changed and quite rightly, people will want to vent a bit of steam.
In the whole, whether pocket talking or not, most on here through the year talk a lot of sense and if it was all just about betting or moaning about Mullins/Walsh, I wouldn't be on here.
Only a small number of threads/posts are moaning about targets being changed, and it just happens that these have been recently, because a few targets have been changed and quite rightly, people will want to vent a bit of steam.
In the whole, whether pocket talking or not, most on here through the year talk a lot of sense and if it was all just about betting or moaning about Mullins/Walsh, I wouldn't be on here.
For someone who back at least 6 in each race,desperate for winner and to beat the market etc, thinks it's utterly laughable that STS says lets just enjoy the racing.. Utter garbage
And no shenanigans from Irish NH stable? Having a laugh aren't you? Fear of stable lads not collecting on Min and then trading on Yorkhill.
Hope both lose. Taking the piss out of punters
And no shenanigans from Irish NH stable? Having a laugh aren't you? Fear of stable lads not collecting on Min and then trading on Yorkhill.
Hope both lose. Taking the piss out of punters
TBH why would stable lads take advantage? I am pretty sure that there would be a clause written in their contracts that says they would not be allowed. I don't know if there is a rule even, i know there is for owners/trainers. Backing to win is allowed, of course, but laying? Am not so sure. If it were ever made public that a member of staff was laying non runners before it were made public there would be an uproar, it would bring that business (cos whatever way you look at trainers they are a business after all) into disrepute!!
It would be a gross misconduct offense in my yard anyways if i was into training, which i am not. Even the suggestion is ridiculous!
Now am not saying that once the info is released to journalists that they don't take advantage, but to say members of staff within yards do. Don't buy it!
It would be a gross misconduct offense in my yard anyways if i was into training, which i am not. Even the suggestion is ridiculous!
Now am not saying that once the info is released to journalists that they don't take advantage, but to say members of staff within yards do. Don't buy it!
It be like me saying to you that this item will be this price in a couple of weeks, so don't buy it now hang fire or this company is going to do this in their next publicity ploy etc. This is what i do for a job, travel the country visiting stores fitting POS and the likes, you may notice sometimes rather large POS going up in your local Morrisons say over night moves and the likes. We work with all the major retailers but they trust us with this and its all top secret!
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