Cheltenham Festival
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Mullins domination, why he's doing the best( by Robbie McNamara)
Mullins domination, why he's doing the best( by Robbie McNamara)
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Replies: 88
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well he made a lot of misjudgements then - doesnt make him a very good trainer then does it - clearly incapable of learning multiple lessons if youre right
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Has the talent and a good team now has the owners to back it up ,the full package now. Long may it continue , im amazed with some of the comments about this mans success when Nichols was flying did he get the same treatment correct me if im wrong but im guessing not ,its great to see these horses even if there massive odds on , you dont have to back them just enjoy there are so many other betting orportunities , im thinking a lot of people have taken an umbridge because things are not falling in the way they want ,like a bitter liverpool supoorter harpin back to when his team was flyin . National hunt racing is a lot better for the likes of Willie
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moat - i think the problem is people that are convinced so emphatically about WPM superior ability as a trainer have absolutely no time for others that want to have a sligthly more balanced discussion - it seems that if anyone even dares displays anything other than complete mullins fanaticism they are accused of all sorts of things on this forum - it is now almost impossible to have anything like an interesting debate when every time you try people respond exactly how you just have
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Im just defending the guy im not a fanantic , people for some reason mayby not yourself are trying to say he is bad for racing if you dare defend him you are acussed of mot being a true racing fan, a fanatic and have no right to an oppinion , just commenting though your pocket .... i could go ..... some really arrogant people out there
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Im a reasonable man miltons what do think are the problems with willie i will give you a balanced reply i wont judge yoy prrsonally as some people tend to do
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moat - imbalance can happen both ways i agree and i dont like it in any circumstances even if its from somebody that shares a view i have - i have read some good posts by people that are trying to take a balanced view re wpm and they are not being met with much other than defensiveness and they are being accused of being anti WPM - i was accused of this myself - i am neither for or against but that was enough for people to ask me what i had against him. as soon as anyone as much as asks a question people come from all directions to defend - there is no need its just discussion - somebody asking a question or putting a theory out there is not the same as attacking him so there is nothing to defend. I think the best thing is to give up tbh and recognise i am trying to solve the unsolvable.
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Obviously Mullins is a very good trainer as is Aiden O'B, but once you get past a certain threshold, particularly in Ireland, the top 3 or 4 owners who dominate the sport send you all their best horses making it hard for other trainers to make an impression. Gigginstown and JP do spread theirs round a bit but Wylie and Richie have all their eggs in one basket and they seem to be right to do so.
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i think the fact that you ask what my problem with him proves the point i am making - which of my posts tell you i have a problem with him
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It wouldnt be as muvh fun if there wasnt the passion remember one year over at chelts the company getting involved in an arguement over the acheivements of Istabraq an agruement that couldnt be won but it filled a drunken hour and we pretty much had a laugh
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agree just prefer my arguments to not be dominated by defensiveness
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Thats one of the main components of an arguement its when it gets personal i react ,someone can call an oppinion of mine rubbish and a lot worse , no probs i get that from my friends i will react when people obviosly not yourself start this whole not true fans rubbish and other similar comments i count myself as a good fan of the sport love my racing love going racing of cousre im going to react my problem is with people labelling someone with a different oppion as some type of pleb I m glad to react trust me ive been quite reserved as to what id like to call them
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Agree and id say the the Greatest of them all in my oppinion Vincent O'Brien would to you need to be more than just a good trainer you could be the best horse trainer in the world but if you dont have the money men thats a vital piece in the jig saw missing
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as an ex athlete as well as a racing enthusiast and owner, I might be able to make some comparisons and comments about training. Most if not all athletes do under and over distance training as routine. A 1500 metre runner as I was would typically train over 3 or 4 times more than that most days with a few sprint days in between. I found that as soon as I tried to race over further than I had trained (10 miles for instance) it was very hard psychologically to keep going beyond my customary distance. Once I had done it a few times it became easier. Horses are rarely if ever asked to work over further than they race over, particularly NH ones. In my view this is why so many young horses in novice hurdles or bumpers stop suddenly after 11 or 12 furlongs of a race as they have never galloped that far continuously in their life before. If I was a trainer I would give them a steady canter and then half speed over 3 miles before they saw a racecourse. Horses that have been hunted and then run in a PTP usually finish their races even if not good enough to win.
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Something i was told in relation to training and on a race day ,im probably going to make a fool of myself here , is water intake this was explained to me by a freind in the game but to be honest i wasnt really listning at the time, it seem to be the impotance of this during training and on race day
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Oldest trick in the book to fill a horse with water before a race.
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CREAM RICE FOR A DOG
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I wonder how long Wykie will keep writing cheques for Nicholls? Hardly any success with him and nearly all his horses with Mullins win graded races.
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*Wylie
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in any walk of life/sport if anyone person team dominates then the cry is heard its not good for the sport. Take the example of the Australian or West Indies cricket teams, Liverpool and Man utd and so on and so on.
My take is that its good as it makes others strive harder to try and catch them. I respect Mullins he has done a fantastic job and seems a really level headed down to earth individual, Good luck to him and lets see if the others can reach the bar that he has undoubtedly raised. |
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Always worth remembering that Mullins once spent two years seriously arguing that he should be allowed to administer an illegal substance to a horse as long as it's in the feed:
BE MY ROYAL, whose disqualification after winning the 2002 Hennessy Cognac Gold Cup prompted trainer Willie Mullins to mount a long-running but ultimately unsuccessful legal battle with the Jockey Club, died on Sunday at the age of 15. The son of Be My Native was stripped of victory after testing positive for morphine, but Mullins argued his charge was the "victim of serious injustice", claiming the decision had been "arbitrary, capricious and irrational" because the drug found in Be My Royal's urine was due to innocent feed contamination. http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/disqualified-hennessy-winner-be-my-royal-dies/91153/#newsArchiveTabs=last7DaysNews |
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I can condone domination in 'individual' sports eg tennis, snooker, boxing and golf to name a few where the dedication and skill of an individual are to be applauded but not in horse racing when the prices of other participants are determined by the decisions of either the owners/trainer or both on one or two of their participants in an event. And in jump racing the position of WM recently is as close to it as it can be; this could give rise to not running/having the best participants for an event to ensure maximum competition but instead to maximise winning races as the sole aim, and this cannot be good for the sport or the fans.
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yep,pretty much my take on it as well.
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Sorry but rubbish im a fan hopefully will be travellin down to Leopardstown Sunday and one of the main reasons is to see these horses what do you want all racing to be handicaps not for me mate
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moat,
I do not expect everyone to share my take - this is akin to the reason/outcome of an event by economists. For your info I shy away from handicaps unless it is the Grand National solely for a bit of fun and not expecting to win. It is unhealthy for the sport if an owner with deep pockets has every horse with one trainer only for reasons of safety and welfare. Each to his/her own I guess. |
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Unhealthy for who ? i think he made a good choice , there are plenty of deep pockets out there and id say a few of them wish they were in that team if i had deep pockets id be havin horses about me even if i couldnt get into that stable purely because its a great game. The games better for the likes of Willie Mullins . Again sorry but im just expreßing my honest oppinion when i think those who say its bad for the game and fans are talking rubbish everyone entitled to an oppinion and mine is that talk is absolute rubbish ive been acused of talkin rubbish manys a time mainly by my mates its all good fun
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moat - admirable that seeing a really good horse in the flesh is enough for you - cant knock that at all - but i also cant knock those that would prefer top races to be highly competitive - i think this is what people mean when they talk about good for the sport - i dont think it is anything against wpm per se and i dont think they are saying they dont want to see top horses - i think it is simply that they want to see top horses run against each other as often as possible irrespective of who owns/trains them - also surely it is perfectly natural to want to see tight finishes even in grade 1 races and for there to be mystery and intrigue leading up to a race - there is only so many 1/2 shots 6-1 bar for top races that racing can take before the only fans left are the real purists like yourself - just take a look at this years GC and how it captures our imagination when 1) there are multiple top class horses entered and 2) one is not head and shoulders above the rest - This sport needs more than just purists to flourish and it needs to remain unpredictable. For the most part sports insist that the 1st and second rank in the sport or in a particular discipline within a sport take each other on and it is nearly always these encounters that summon the most interest and become the showcase events that inspire followership. What if Vautour and Djak avoid each other in March - is it enough just that they are there for people to see - for the purists yes but for others that want to see them race each other and are disappointed if they dont- surely that is understandable too.
I think what is happening now is ok for a period of time but at some point most people will want more from the NH season. It is not WPMs fault but if he or anybody thinks that this sport can continue to thrive without people like impossible and budd remaining fans i think they are mistaken. |
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Yes the world changes would be boring if it didnt and it will keep on changing im far from just a purist there is someting for every taste out there and my tastes are varied just my oppinion think there is a lot of nonsense being talked the sport is great now it will still be great if Willie carrys on as is or if he doesnt and then hopefully in another lifetime you will see another force come along thats in my oppinion I genuinely think a lot of nonsense being talked, unhealthy for the sport and fans ,come on people are seeing problems that arent there Sorry cant help myself its a load of rubbish
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apologies Moat on another thread you said you were excited at the prospect of seeing Douvan - recognising its a 3 horse race and he is 1-10 and stone or so in hand of 2nd fav i assumed your excitement was because it was Douvan - thats what i meant by purist - it is the horse you are looking forward to not the competitiveness of the race. Others would much prefer it if the top 2 mile novice chase in ireland was a little more competitive. Again this is not wpms fault and as you say it is change and great that we have a horse like Douvan to enjoy.
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No offense taken and i hope none given
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absolutely none - i actually meant it as a compliment
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Cracking thread
 Firmly against impossible's views there. Sport is always cyclical. There will be years in the future Mullins won't be doing as well as he is now. Nobody can begrudge him his success though we would like to see his best face off vs each other but that's another argument. The assumption from plenty here seems to be that Hendo, Nicholls, Pipe could win the same races with the same horses. That is presumptive and an insult to Mullins and his team.Quite simply he has the best jockey in Ruby, a decent support team, supportive owners and great scouts. That didn't happen overnight. The onus is on Hendo, Nicholls, Pipe, O'Neill, Hobbs to find a way to compete. IF only Hendo can add more hours and days to the year but he'd probably still need more time! If only Nicholls could have kept Skelton, Fry, Ruby and remain humble! If only Pipe could've got more owners like Roger Brookhouse, Tisdall and Bryan Drew spending even more money! If only O'Neill wasn't so obsessed with handicap gambles! If only.. For every Suarez and Neymar, there's a Messi, Pique, Xavi, Iniesta who benefited from the culture of the club. Mullins has created THAT culture of success. The ball is firmly in his rivals' court. Their move.... |
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Trust me im not counting my money for March i think these races are more competive than people think a lot of value gone if your not an antepost person likemyself but if you fancy some of the other in the so called goodthing races there is value im on Min but fear Altior bigtime im on Faugheen but fear Peace and co Dont fear a thing against Douvan . Cheltenham is like an abusive relationship sometimes wonder why you put yourself through this every year climbing the walls and praying your horses get there safe and sound
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where did I heard that story of P Nicholls going to France to buy a horse in a weekend, he saw the home gallop and Mullins people snatched that exact same horse by Monday evening :) Someone would get all these good horses anyway so the game is bound to change at the top of trainers rank, depending on luck and how good contacts each trainer has. Its good tho that one like Willie got there at the top as he had a long journey starting from the bottom and even though I still hate him for not sending AP and UDS for the `14 CH and for not giving Faugheen a prep for Chelt in last years Irish CH, but he did these for HF who helped to get the current affairs rolling so you can understand Mullins protectionism. Anyway I'm glad he had such good fortunes of late, even though most of his stars have yet to come out of novice company there are some that could also make it to the top and good for him. Why wasn't anyone complaining of Nicholls when he had the exact same situation few years ago ? So I agree @moat this is just complaining for the sake of it.
and @MS, flat racing has rarely captured the wide public attention in recent history as when Frankel, especially as a 4yo, was winning those G1 races by wide margin as short odds on favourite. It still was unpredictable because anything could happen in a G1 race and nothing is unbeatable like we found out recently with Faugheen when the jockey and trainer don't do their proper job. That pressure of doing everything right with Sir HC and TQ in Frankel's last season provided remarkable moments, much more than the following year's renewal of those races without him, I mean I can't even remember off the top of my head who won `13 Sussex? Toronado? but I do remember Frankel clashing with Canford and destroying Farhh the next year. I remember Faugheen's first CH, its recent I guess but I remember all the hypa and excitement for Sprinter's Arkle and I will remember which ever short price Mullins novice horse will win at the festival in style. We tend to remember horses like this that have our attention and they're the ones that make this sport great, not the "tight finishes" or "mystery... leading up to a race" |
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Aul Henry RIP top toff top class and some career some magic horses and saved best to last Frankel wow dont think youl never see a 2000 guineas like it, my jaw was hanging for a good while after that
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A great amount of ground work gives his horses huge base layers of muscle.
That's the bit where I'd appreciate a deeper explanation. I think what happens is that Mullins actually tries to win and develop the horse. Vast majority of other Irish trainers are fiddlers who are infatuated with handicapping and punts (Thinking this keeps their owners happy). When your average Mullins novice/bumper horse hits the course, its rare the horse is unfit or lacking for schooling where as a Tony Martin horse winning on debut over hurdles would be followed by satan rising from the depths of hell to collect his winnings from a freezing flying pig. Henderson and Nicholls are as good as Mullins, problem is though they dont have the deep pockets of Wiley, Ricci and gigginstown. |
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Thats a bit strong vast majority fiddlers mmm if your not running in the graded races of course your gonna be fiddlin as you call it Id say any of those do called fiddlers with a moscow , brave inca , hardy eustace , wouldnt be fiddling id think they would be doing the same as the trainers who had them your just stating the obvious if you have handicappers in your yard your gonna be focused on handicaps because thats all there is to focus on Vast majority well again usually in any large sport fewer are at the top , Elephants are pretty big animals ooops just stated the obvious
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Well I completely agree with Miltons and Impossible,like me they simply want an exciting time leading up to the festival looking forward to races like the gold Cup,that along with the World Hurdle do look like being competitive with the top horses running.....hope Mullins lets us enjoy Vautour and Djakadam.He don't normally.
For me it's what sport is about,competitiveness,excitement in the build up and seeing the best compete against each other. I'm afraid Mullins takes some of that away from me,so forgive me if I have concerns for my sport,cos I have. Imagine how it must be up in Scotland with Celtic........god that must get tedious. Different level maybe,but same principal involved,and who knows where this will end? Would agree other trainers/owners need to up their game,but it would also be good if top horses at one yard took each other on more often. We would still see the best horses,but instead of a romp with horses easing down and coasting home smoking a cigar,we would see proper finishes,now that's what I call exciting. Each to their own though. |
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Just to through another angel on competitivness 4 days and more races has had an effect ,what we all should wary off is another day that would be a bad day. Again i think some of these races are going to be harder to win than youd think and more competitive than youd think ITS CHELTENHAM
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Moat - agree the races are likely to be more competitive than the markets have us suggest - but imo the NH season needs to be about a lot more than just cheltenham and races are getting ridiculously uncompetitive imo, particulalrly over in ireland - and i can understand why some are finding that frustrating - god forbid if chelt ever starts losing its competitiveness - i personally would never want that to happen.
Timtin - not sure why you are quoting frankel at me - i agree the sport needs its superstars - never said it didnt - but it also needs to be highly competitive at the highest level - you talk about faugheen - not so long ago the front page of the racing p had headline 'magnificent seven' there were seven top horses all pitching up for the CH. This captured EVERYBODYS attention not just the fans of one horse. You will remember Faugheens CH. i will remember Jezki and MTOY battling up the hill more - i am not saying you are wrong it is just a personal thing - i think racing needs competitiveness and it needs the excitememnt of the best against each other and i dont want anything to threaten that. I remember Kauto v Denman more than i remember HF or Faugheen. In fact i will ALWAYS remember how i felt when UDS and AP didnt turn up for CH. Also you mention flat racing - so which race is shown over and over and over (more than any other in history) ..... bustino v grundy - why do you think that is |