Mullins domination, why he's doing the best( by Robbie McNamara)

Some interesting points.  I have no idea about the ins and outs of training a horse, but whatever Mullins and his team are doing is certainly working.

The bit about "make your choice" at the end is nonsense though.  The festival is supposed to be about the very best horses AND competitive fields, not one or the other.

One thing about Mullins and his "invincibility", 25 of his 41 wins have been hurdles (so he is heavily weighted in that division), and he has never won a handicap chase, which surprised me.  He is VERY good with top class hurdlers (or making hurdlers top class), and he is good at placing some good up and coming horses in the handicap hurdles, but until last year he'd only had 5 chase winners.

I was surprised about the handicap chase stats - it could be argued most of his horses are too good to go into handicaps or will be rated too highly (Nicholls only has 1 handicap chase win), but how come they are so good with handicap hurdles and not chasers?  Genuine question by the way.

Sorry, talking nonsense about Nicholls.

He's got 5 handicap chase winners (that includes Taranis' Ryanair win when it was a Grade 2).

So it begs the question about Mullins in them, about never having one?

And it could be said that, despite his novice hurdle and chase successes, he has yet to have the same success in top grade, senior championship races other than, of course, the Champion Hurdle which he has dominated for so long and will continue to do so.  Maybe it's just a matter of time, but could it be that he peaks his chasers too soon to develop into champions? For all their early brilliance, few have graduated to the top of the tree; no Gold Cup winner or Champion Chase winner. Admittedly, this could look crass come mid March but, looking at his career to date, it holds water.

How many handicap chsars has Mullins run?

I don't think the point was championship races or handicaps in England but his stable in general does better than others, of course it also helps that he has powerful owners. Timeform put a number at last year festival and I don't remember exactly but something like 70-80% of his horses have run to form or have improved.

Just listening to P. Mullins on RUK interview and he said something interesting about Open Eagle: "it took him awhile to adjust to our yard, he was used to being pampered when trained over flat" so here comes the aerobic anaerobic fitness that Robbie talks about Mullins jump horses.

How do you put more muscle on them at the start than others?

Jan 16, 2016 -- 3:28PM, Roger De Bris wrote:

How do you put more muscle on them at the start than others?

Tren

either plastic surgery or "a great amount of ground work"

One explanation for the lack of handicap chase wins is that Mullins tends to try and win his races unlike Martin, Elliot, McManus owned horses. So the handicapper has plenty to go on when assessing them. Plenty of trainers for the handicaps leave lots to work on to get in on a relatively low mark. Many Mullins horses would have been high rated over hurdles so the handicapper has that to look at as well.

He would be doing better in handicap hurdles as many of his horses in novice handicaps would still be improving. He knows what his championship ones are so will leave the second/third string a little to work on which helps them get in not badly treated sometimes. He does tend to throw more darts at the handicap hurdles than the chases as well.

Good read Timtin

cyclops - And it could be said that, despite his novice hurdle and chase successes, he has yet to have the same success in top grade, senior championship races other than, of course, the Champion Hurdle which he has dominated for so long and will continue to do so.  Maybe it's just a matter of time, but could it be that he peaks his chasers too soon to develop into champions? For all their early brilliance, few have graduated to the top of the tree; no Gold Cup winner or Champion Chase winner. Admittedly, this could look crass come mid March but, looking at his career to date, it holds water.

Also interesting. The most obvious thing about this current crop seems to be their ability to win from the front rather than quicken off a pace, even in the relative good conditions of England/Cheltenham.

It could be argued that Mullins style of 'adding extra basework' is simply confirming the whole 'French bred theory' when horses are cooked earlier than expected because they are heavily trained at a young age. There have always been horses to mock this trend but it will be very interesting if none of the current bumper crop graduate to become top class chasers who can stay two or three years near the top of the tree.

Even if they dont, his approach seems to make commercial sense anyway. Why gamble on nurturing good horses into potential superstar chasers when you can obliterate the hurdle/novice divisions and get big owners salivating that they have the favourite at next years Cheltenham.

His comments on aerobic and anaerobic are tripe.

A great amount of ground work gives his horses huge base layers of muscle.

That's the bit where I'd appreciate a deeper explanation.

You know, just a rough idea of how the Mullins "ground work" differs from the ground work every other person who owns a competition horse routinely does before training it properly. Because other people evidently aren't finding those "huge base layers of muscle" appearing on their horses.

i dont know if its tripe or not eo..but explain how do you?

It's not bad for the sport. It's bad for his opposition. I'd guess the folk who think it's bad for racing are the ones who would take his yard full in a second.  As someone else pointed out, this didn't happen quickly. Mullins put in alot of work to get the success he deserves today. Jumps is better for it, and makes the sport more accessible and fun. Him, his family and connections are the best advertisment for any discipline of racing out there. As far as my opinion lies, i hope he gets more great horses, because he and his racing team are bringing memories to the table. They are putting out horses that i don't need to bet on in order to have an interest.

a very long article with only two reasons given for WPM dominance 1) great scouts and 2) focus on base fitness which results in improved anaerobic fitness. Well there we have it mystery solved. For the other idiots out there training horses, you all should be ashamed of yourselves - Mr M is saying WPM is getting horses fitter than you are capable of - which seeing as this is your primary job doesnt sound very good does it - any trainers out there want to respond - there are some that would appreciate it.

Seemed to have changed your tune Graeme.  Quite funny reading that after your post above

http://community.betfair.com/cheltenham2011/go/thread/view/113609/29613985/w...

Not having a go by the way, I just remember that thread quite vividly!

tony

Start with this tony:

it’s like going for a run but not getting out of breath and in racing this accounts for the first maybe three-quarters of the race.

This is rubbish. Long distance runners like Mo Farah will do this, running consistent laps in the 60-65 range until about the last 1000 metres when they pick the pace up and will run the last lap in the 52-54 seconds range. This has ssoething to do with anaerobic fitness which is more explosive in nature and does depend on effort. What we know in racing in relation to jumpers in similar quality events is that the ones who win whilst appearing to accelerate don't do so. They decelerate less quickly than their competitors. Of course a mix of aerobic and anerobic training may help with this but that wasn't what he was saying.

A great amount of ground work gives his horses huge base layers of muscle. Starting off their training with large amounts of muscle mass allows the horses to train harder, leading to them getting even fitter and it also gives a quicker recovery time, which means the horse can be worked harder.

I wouldn't automatically say this is rubbish but it is suspect. Large amounts of muscle mass do not make distance athletes be it human or equine. Sprinters have significant muscle mass. Distance athletes less so.

EO, doesn't Mullins trains horses ? if so why the comparison with human athletes ? Robbie explains that Mullins horses have the muscle capabilities given a better training regime than others to respond at the end of the race and his horses can cope with that final exertions better than others so that thy'll decelerate less quickly than the rest.

Most races even in jumps have faster finishing sectionals than what they ran to in the early parts of a race, so in effect he's right saying that in the first 3 quarters horses shouldn't get out of breath if they're of similar quality eg. grade 1 horses. Otherwise if they're of lower class they'll get tailed off anyways near the end as they won't be able to cope with that pace, given its wasn't a farce one set.

In horse racing the 4 milers are not "distance athletes", horses can run for tens of miles which is the equivalent of Mo Farah. A Grand National horse like Many Clouds is equivalent to a 800 meters athlete who needs muscle mass just as much as the 400m or 200m runner. Here's a picture of a horse: http://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/14/20... . Maybe you won't recognize him but even if you do, can you honestly tell if its the winner of the 2000 Guineas or the GN based on his muscle mass?

Im no horseman but I got from the piece that he was saying if you train a horse in its comfort zone then it will be great for 3/4 of a race ie when its in its comfort zone.

The muscle business he said if you get muscle on early then they can train better. I didnt think he was saying that Mullins gets horses to racecourses more muscley than other horses, just that they get beefed up younger so they can train younger.

Another reason he dominates is that he trains the horses with his team. Ten weeks before Cheltenham and Paul Nicholls on a beach in Barbados and has been for over a week.

Mullins flew to Australia just for the weekend to see his Melbourne Cup hope preparations.

"I didnt think he was saying that Mullins gets horses to racecourses more muscley than other horses, just that they get beefed up younger so they can train younger."

Yes he means the new horses coming into the yard being put into a new and harder training regime will surely acquire the base muscle mass that allows them to train harder and over time to become competitive at their level be it listed events, handicap or graded races. I remember he described Faugheen as two boards clapped together in his novice year and that he wasnt pleased at all with how he looked and said he got him almost where he wanted with only 1-2 months before the CH.

Many trainers are capable of this but lack good owners or lack the home facilities or the routines that Mullins has in place. But he's been doing it for so long that he finally got those powerful owners so that when he gets hold of a good horse he wants he can ring x or y and tell them to pay up.

As for younger horses, I don't think he over-trains them, he got Florida pearl at 12 yo, HF at 11 and Quevega at 10 to win G1s. If the horse is good enough he'll get thm back season after season but in open company things get rough and it may look that his novices don't train on but in fact his good novices could simply hit a wall against older horses of better quality. He only has 1 champion because he was very very lucky as he admitted he didn't thought much of Faugheen when he bought him. He could have 3 after this festival with UDS and Vautour going up in class in the championship races but if they turn up short it doesn't mean Mullins has killed their chances because he trained them hard as youngsters, it just means they're reached their level.

Its difficult to weigh up though because HF and Quevega grew up in a different Mullins yard when he didnt have all this firepower. He's only had this huge success in the last few years and when you break it down, theyve won a champion hurdle and an arkle and not much more.

Ive always sort of assumed that Mullins is now getting the horses that Nicholls and Henderson would have snapped up if Mullins hadnt. And i assumed all the front running was down to a change in style from Ruby Walsh. But its interesting that RM thinks its all down to the training.

One of the criticisms I had was that some of his chasers didn't have much longevity after Grade 1 wins; like Kempes, Quel Esprit, Ballycasey, Cooldine etc but now I believe he made them over achieve in the first place, rather than him not giving them long careers at the top.

timtin

EO, doesn't Mullins trains horses ? Grin if so why the comparison with human athletes ?

I wasn't comparing horses to humans. I was pointing out that greater muscle mass within both species leads to greater sprint performances and subsequent diminution in performance when they run over longer distances. Look at the physiology of a five furlong horse especially its muscles in behind. A miler is a middle distance horse. This was more easily explained with reference to the very different physiques within the humans Bolt and Farah. Often middle distance performers in human terms could more easily be confused with distance athletes. Look at Seb Coe or Steve Cram. You'd never see a Linfrd Christie type winning gold in the 800 or 1500 metres which are middle distance events.

Most races even in jumps have faster finishing sectionals than what they ran to in the early parts of a race,

Sorry I don't agree. I've just hand timed the sectionals for the Gold Cup going back a few years, like you would on a Saturday night and the horses are running faster between the first and second fence than they are between the second last and last and they are in effect the same fences taken at the beginning and end of race. The difference being that the horses are fresher at the start and are being hard ridden at the end. All of those races had them running more slowly at the end of the race.

In horse racing the 4 milers are not "distance athletes", horses can run for tens of miles which is the equivalent of Mo Farah. A Grand National horse like Many Clouds is equivalent to a 800 meters athlete who needs muscle mass just as much as the 400m or 200m runner.

Horses can run for tens of miles but they aren't especially efficient in doing so. A horse will run the mile and a half of a Derby in about 2.32. the fastest human to ever run even a mile did so in about 3.45. As the distance increases the difference between the two in relative terms shrinks so that for example it is feasible for horses and humans to compete in distance races just over 20 miles with the humans sometimes beating the horses. So, sorry, the facts don't back up your assertion about a Grand National horse being the equivalent of an 800 metres runner. In terms of the stress placed on the horse it would be more akin to a marathon as evidenced by the fact that often a horse will finish the race in physical distress.

But do you think that making them over achieve cost them their longevity? If so why hasn't it affected the horses I mentioned above or Thousand Star or Uncle Junior, etc. I don't buy into that theory.

Ruby is a good judge of the pace but doesn't necessarily has to be front running to bring the best out of Mullins horses. I don't believe the new myth that riding from the front is easier, ask any jockey and they'll tell you they'd rather follow an honest pace rather than having to make it themselves, because its very hard and not only you need to judge it well but you're a sitting duck to multiple challengers in the final stages and your horse has to repel them all. If Coneygree had had a pacemaker without being forced to make his own I'm sure he would've won the GC in alot more authoritative manner than he did.

It's ok wellchief. I'm typin from a console, so i can't copy n paste your link in order to read it. At a guess i'd say your pasting an older view i had some time ago about wpm and his ability to train chasers. I think at the time ricci even said wpm was frustrated in that department at the time himself. I'd imagine you didn't vividly recall me saying i think willie was still one of the best, or when i stated i was still backing his chasers, such as SDS. At the time my opinion was overly connected to my bet slip, which is a punters flaw. i have changed. Horses efforts such as champagne fever, don poli,  sir des champs, djakadam and vautour - amongst others - have since proven my historical opinion wrong. My opinion was what i was thinking at the time(with too many bet slips).  My new opinion about wpm is more definitive, and unrelated to bet slips, he's the best advert for racing, and tis is a view that won't change, betslip or not.

graeme - interesting choice of horses - for me champagne fever never realised potential over fences, SDS, DP and Djak were a long way from top drawer over hurdles and were given a relatively easy time over hurdles - so for the most part your list kind of re-enforces rather than disproves the view that his horses tend to either excel as novices over hurdles or do well over fences but not both. I think some of the posts are looking for strong evidence that he can do both. Vautour is the exception rather than the norm. Only time will tell whether he can on a reasonably consistent basis turn a horses superiority as a novice hurdler into superiority as senior chasers. If he does then he will earn a huge tick in all departments if he doesnt it will add weight in some minds to the view that he is sacrificing the latter for the former.

I believe NJH is patient with his novice hurdlers and has reaped the reward in senior races (both over hurdles and fences) - perhaps if he had prioritised winning the supreme with SS for example we might not have seen the senior horse we did- as it was he let the horse pitch up knowing certain things needed to be tweaked and knowing the horse was all about the future. Finians,Binocular,SS, Punjabi all got beat as juveniles/novices - Interestingly Bobs Worth won as a novice and also as a senior - my guess is he saw this as being a different type of horse and so didnt hold back as a novice - i wouldnt be surprised if he is regretting the same now with Simonsig.

With Vautour and the promise shown by Douvan there are positive signs but the true test is when we reflect in 10 years time on what has actually happened rather than assume it will

Absolutely right about Henderson being more patient with nov hurdlers.
Only have to look at the list of Champion Hurdle types that have got beat as novices.
As Miltons says above,plus the likes of MTOY,and Darlan and Spirit Son could have literally been superstars.

Mullins and Henderson obviously have different ideas re novices......would love to get them both round a table giving their views.

Would make me think twice about backing one of his for the Supreme, maybe best to wait for the next year. His Triumph Hurdle record is better; first 3 last year, plus Saldatino and Zaynar being recent winners

'Many trainers are capable of this but lack good owners or lack the home facilities or the routines that Mullins has in place'

Owners/Facilities/Routines

He's got the mix right. It's taken him 20 years plus to do so although within that time he has been pretty successful all the same. Ricci and Wylie also arrived when other trainers were still struggling with the loss of owners, and the unpaid bills that came with that, as a result of the financial crash.

I'm not sure i'd use henderson as a great example against wpm. If anything, it reinforces the opinion that maybe you should win what you can when the opportunity arises, as horses such as spirit son, darlan and mtoy picked up misfortunate injuries, and never got to fufill their potential. Maybe going easy on horses is trainer talk for not having enough pace to win anyway, at the time of racing.  He went easy on sir des champs, and that horse picked up a injury aswell. There are numerous reasons for and against going easy.  Horses also have their own traits and strengths/weaknesses. I'm not in a position to know what's best for individual horses. Some horses don't run between christmas until the festival, and some trainers wish they had got another run in heindsight. It's not all black and white.

Not enough pace?
You trying to tell me Cinders and ashes was quicker than Darlan, Champagne fever quicker than MTOY or Al Ferof quicker than both Sprinter and Spirit Son??

No. Cinders was a 2 bob opportunist, and al ferof outstayed them.  Champagne Fever outstayed jezki aswell.  These slower horses won festival races, and some of these faster horses haven't. Some didn't even get another chance unfortunately. There are big rugged types that are obvious chasers in the making, and many of them don't have the pace for hurdling i.e sizing europe or denman. At the end of the day, the festival would be lesser if all trainers thought "you know what, lets not try to win this hurdle race, because this horse might be injury free a year from now". The ammount of talented jumpers whos careers have been shortened is pretty extensive, and many of them were campaigned lightly enough.  I'm also convinced that mullins wouldn't push a horse too far to win a novice hurdle. It just so happens he has speedsters and pacey stayers who are dual purpose.

Graeme - i think the point is that henderson will not even potentially sacrifice long term glory just to win a festival novice hurdle if he thinks he has a horse that could be a little special - this obviously doesnt guarantee that a horse wont pick up an injury but that he is just trying to take a longer term view - and maximising his chances of winning a senior festival race - i dont think its a leap of faith to say his success in the senior races has at least to some degree vindicated this approach - it is not about right or wrong it has just been a different approach and the possibility exists that if he focused more on winning the novice races he may not have had the same senior success. Where we are with WPM right now is he is experiencing unprecedented success with his novices but is some way behind NJH regarding senior success. Time may well show us that he will not just dominate with novices but also with novices that turn into championship winning senior horses but we are not at that point yet (and here i dont mean just one or two seasons but over a period) and its is a little unfair imo to extrapolate his novice success and use this as evidence that he is better at every aspect of training as everyone else. Dont get me wrong i am completely open to this being the case (and believe it to be a possibility) but for me it is a little early to be making this judgement as emphatically as many are making.

Well I think we have fair evidence in the form book that says Henderson is patient with horses that he thinks are proper horses.
No doubt in my mind had he been less patient he would have won a lot more than 2 supreme hurdles in his long career,but maybe he would have less senior race wins at the same time.
I think Mullins has a different approach with his novice hurdlers hence hes won more supremes in the last 3 years than Hendo has won in his whole career.

Mullins reminds me a bit of Martin Pipe 25-30 years ago and his fitness regime which was seen at the time as revolutionary.
He got the winners in droves for Dunwoody, Scudamore and then McCoy.
And a fair few championship races as well, but he did scoop up lots of lower grade races. Memories of multiple sellers come to mind around the likes of Exeter, Newton Abbot.

Henderson is patient, but there's a chance that he thought he had these races won. Darlan went 2m and got beat by a horse they probably didn't expect to see go past them. If you told hendo that Darlan needed to be a couple of lengths better, i think he would have got that out of the horse.  Hendo wants to win prize money like the rest of them, hence why simonsig went to the neptune. He was also patient with mtoy, but neither hendo or harrington thought champagne fever would win. These folk didn't sacrifice the race for the horses future, they did it because they thought the horses were good enough to win and still have a long career. Remember hendos face when binocular beat punjabi...he didn't see that coming either ! ...btw i like henderson aswell. He's good for racing. Also, i think he expected spirit son to win. When he didn't, the horse wasn't put away. It was sent up in trip to wallop cue card at aintree. Good old prize money.

Maybe Mullins has a horse gym in Clonsutton where young horses come in an do horse bench presses and the like to build up their muscle mass.

I know nothing about the training of horses but would it be fair to say the article overlooks two components in Mullins success (?):
1) Luck - Any successful person in any walk of life has benefited from good luck along the way. I doubt Mullins is any different. You hear Rich Ricci talk about the partnership he has formed with Willie Mullins and he cites a friend who recommended Mullins. How different would it have been if that friend didn't recommend Mullins and Ricci had went to the UK to someone like Nicholls who was the biggest trainer around at the time. Granted opportunity on it's own is no good - Mullins had the acumen to capitalize. 
2) Good people working for him - I often wonder how hands-on people like Mullins or Aidan O'Brien are. Surely their greatest skill is getting the best people into their yard to work for them and then getting the best out of those people. A true leader. Mullins has great strengths as a leader of a business which have gone unacknowledged in this thread. I know the jockey Ruby Walsh and the primary scouter Harold Kirk get acknowledged but what about the rest. I would bet he has the best stable stuff around too.

It would be interesting to hear what people think was the turning point in Mullins career. Granted he always had a reputation as a great trainer of young bumper horses and then there was the likes of Florida Pearl but this time 10 years ago, Mullins was well down the pecking order ... Meade, O'Grady, Hughes were doing as good if not better. He had no winners at Cheltenham 2006, 1 in 2007 (Ebaziyan), 2 in 2008 (Cousin Vinny and Fiveforthree) & 3 in 2009 (Mikael D'Huagenet, Cooldine & Quevaga) showing his steady ascent but for me the arrival of Hurricane Fly was a big turning point. The likes of Gigginstown came to him more after that and Ricci started investing in better horses. Hurricane Fly really brought his profile up. Of course it was on the way up anyway but the Fly gave it an extra jolt and Mullins has dominated all round him ever since.

well he made a lot of misjudgements then - doesnt make him a very good trainer then does it - clearly incapable of learning multiple lessons if youre right

Has the talent and a good team now has the owners to back it up ,the full package now. Long may it continue , im amazed with some of the comments about this mans success when Nichols was flying did he get the same treatment correct me if im wrong but im guessing not ,its great to see these horses even if there massive odds on , you dont have to back them just enjoy there are so many other betting orportunities , im thinking a lot of people have taken an umbridge because things are not falling in the way they want ,like a bitter liverpool supoorter harpin back to when his team was flyin . National hunt racing is a lot better for the likes of Willie

moat - i think the problem is people that are convinced so emphatically about WPM superior ability as a trainer have absolutely no time for others that want to have a sligthly more balanced discussion - it seems that if anyone even dares displays anything other than complete mullins fanaticism they are accused of all sorts of things on this forum - it is now almost impossible to have anything like an interesting debate when every time you try people respond exactly how you just have

Im just defending the guy im not a fanantic , people for some reason mayby not yourself are trying to say he is bad for racing if you dare defend him you are acussed of mot being a true racing fan, a fanatic and have no right to an oppinion , just commenting though your pocket .... i could go ..... some really arrogant people out there

Im a reasonable man miltons what do think are the problems with willie i will give you a balanced reply i wont judge yoy prrsonally as some people tend to do

moat - imbalance can happen both ways i agree and i dont like it in any circumstances even if its from somebody that shares a view i have - i have read some good posts by people that are trying to take a balanced view re wpm and they are not being met with much other than defensiveness and they are being accused of being anti WPM - i was accused of this myself - i am neither for or against but that was enough for people to ask me what i had against him. as soon as anyone as much as asks a question people come from all directions to defend - there is no need its just discussion - somebody asking a question or putting a theory out there is not the same as attacking him so there is nothing to defend. I think the best thing is to give up tbh and recognise i am trying to solve the unsolvable.

Obviously Mullins is a very good trainer as is Aiden O'B, but once you get past a certain threshold, particularly in Ireland, the top 3 or 4 owners who dominate the sport send you all their best horses making it hard for other trainers to make an impression. Gigginstown and JP do spread theirs round a bit but Wylie and Richie have all their eggs in one basket and they seem to be right to do so.

i think the fact that you ask what my problem with him proves the point i am making - which of my posts tell you i have a problem with him

It wouldnt be as muvh fun if there wasnt the passion remember one year over at chelts the company getting involved in an arguement over the acheivements of Istabraq an agruement that couldnt be won but it filled a drunken hour and we pretty much had a laugh

agree just prefer my arguments to not be dominated by defensiveness

Thats one of the main components of an arguement its when it gets personal i react ,someone can call an oppinion of mine rubbish and a lot worse , no probs i get that from my friends i will react when people obviosly not yourself start this whole not true fans rubbish and other similar comments i count myself as a good fan of the sport love my racing love going racing of cousre im going to react my problem is with people labelling someone with a different oppion as some type of pleb I m glad to react trust me ive been quite reserved as to what id like to call them

Jan 17, 2016 -- 1:16PM, SoYouThink wrote:

Maybe Mullins has a horse gym in Clonsutton where young horses come in an do horse bench presses and the like to build up their muscle mass.I know nothing about the training of horses but would it be fair to say the article overlooks two components in Mullins success (?):1) Luck - Any successful person in any walk of life has benefited from good luck along the way. I doubt Mullins is any different. You hear Rich Ricci talk about the partnership he has formed with Willie Mullins and he cites a friend who recommended Mullins. How different would it have been if that friend didn't recommend Mullins and Ricci had went to the UK to someone like Nicholls who was the biggest trainer around at the time. Granted opportunity on it's own is no good - Mullins had the acumen to capitalize.  2) Good people working for him - I often wonder how hands-on people like Mullins or Aidan O'Brien are. Surely their greatest skill is getting the best people into their yard to work for them and then getting the best out of those people. A true leader. Mullins has great strengths as a leader of a business which have gone unacknowledged in this thread. I know the jockey Ruby Walsh and the primary scouter Harold Kirk get acknowledged but what about the rest. I would bet he has the best stable stuff around too.It would be interesting to hear what people think was the turning point in Mullins career. Granted he always had a reputation as a great trainer of young bumper horses and then there was the likes of Florida Pearl but this time 10 years ago, Mullins was well down the pecking order ... Meade, O'Grady, Hughes were doing as good if not better. He had no winners at Cheltenham 2006, 1 in 2007 (Ebaziyan), 2 in 2008 (Cousin Vinny and Fiveforthree) & 3 in 2009 (Mikael D'Huagenet, Cooldine & Quevaga) showing his steady ascent but for me the arrival of Hurricane Fly was a big turning point. The likes of Gigginstown came to him more after that and Ricci started investing in better horses. Hurricane Fly really brought his profile up. Of course it was on the way up anyway but the Fly gave it an extra jolt and Mullins has dominated all round him ever since.

Good post SYT. Regarding your joke in the beginning, training Thoroughbreds whose bodies are similarly build to run around 30 mph, the only difference between them is their temperament, their pace and stamina reserves. Its nothing like human training and thats why I never took to @Eeternaloptimist bashing of Robbie because EO compares horse with human athletes and it doesn't seem to make sense. There are a lot of good trainers out there but like you said its much more to it than training ability.. being able to attract owners and create such a good relationship with them, the luck of finding good horses, the lads that work for you, etc. Bradstock have done a great job with Coneygree winning the GC but then they complained that no new owners have called them so its hard even if you have a good horse like HF or Coneygree to break the duck, you need luck and lots of good contacts on top of being a good trainer.

Agree and id say the the Greatest of them all in my oppinion Vincent O'Brien would to you need to be more than just a good trainer you could be the best horse trainer in the world but if you dont have the money men thats a vital piece in the jig saw missing

as an ex athlete as well as a racing enthusiast and owner, I might be able to make some comparisons and comments about training. Most if not all athletes do under and over distance training as routine. A 1500 metre runner as I was would typically train over 3 or 4 times more than that most days with a few sprint days in between. I found that as soon as I tried to race over further than I had trained (10 miles for instance) it was very hard psychologically to keep going beyond my customary distance. Once I had done it a few times it became easier. Horses are rarely if ever asked to work over further than they race over, particularly NH ones. In my view this is why so many young horses in novice hurdles or bumpers stop suddenly after 11 or 12 furlongs of a race as they have never galloped that far continuously in their life before. If I was a trainer I would give them a steady canter and then half speed over 3 miles before they saw a racecourse. Horses that have been hunted and then run in a PTP usually finish their races even if not good enough to win.

Something i was told in relation to training and on a race day ,im probably going to make a fool of myself here , is water intake this was explained to me by a freind in the game but to be honest i wasnt really listning at the time, it seem to be the impotance of this during training and on race day

Oldest trick in the book to fill a horse with water before a race.

CREAM RICE FOR A DOG

I wonder how long Wykie will keep writing cheques for Nicholls? Hardly any success with him and nearly all his horses with Mullins win graded races.

*Wylie

in any walk of life/sport if anyone person team dominates then the cry is heard its not good for the sport. Take the example of the Australian or West Indies cricket teams, Liverpool and Man utd and so on and so on.

My take is that  its good as it makes others strive harder to try and catch them. I respect Mullins he has done a fantastic job and seems a really level headed down to earth individual,

Good luck to him and lets see if the others can reach the bar that he has undoubtedly raised.

Always worth remembering that Mullins once spent two years seriously arguing that he should be allowed to administer an illegal substance to a horse as long as it's in the feed:

BE MY ROYAL, whose disqualification after winning the 2002 Hennessy Cognac Gold Cup prompted trainer Willie Mullins to mount a long-running but ultimately unsuccessful legal battle with the Jockey Club, died on Sunday at the age of 15.

The son of Be My Native was stripped of victory after testing positive for morphine, but Mullins argued his charge was the "victim of serious injustice", claiming the decision had been "arbitrary, capricious and irrational" because the drug found in Be My Royal's urine was due to innocent feed contamination.

  http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/disqualified-hennessy-winner-be-...

I can condone domination in 'individual' sports eg tennis, snooker, boxing and golf to name a few where the dedication and skill of an individual are to be applauded but not in horse racing when the prices of other participants are determined by the decisions of either the owners/trainer or both on one or two of their participants in an event. And in jump racing the position of WM recently is as close to it as it can be; this could give rise to not running/having the best participants for an event to ensure maximum competition but instead to maximise winning races as the sole aim, and this cannot be good for the sport or the fans.

yep,pretty much my take on it as well.

Sorry but rubbish im a fan hopefully will be travellin down to Leopardstown Sunday and one of the main reasons is to see these horses what do you want all racing to be handicaps not for me mate

moat,

I do not expect everyone to share my take - this is akin to the reason/outcome of an event by economists. For your info I shy away from handicaps unless it is the Grand National solely for a bit of fun and not expecting to win.

It is unhealthy for the sport if an owner with deep pockets has every horse with one trainer only for reasons of safety and welfare. Each to his/her own I guess.

Unhealthy for who ? i think he made a good choice , there are plenty of deep pockets out there and id say a few of them wish they were in that team if i had deep pockets id be havin horses about me even if i couldnt get into that stable purely because its a great game. The games better for the likes of Willie Mullins . Again sorry but im just expreßing my honest oppinion when i think those who say its bad for the game and fans are talking rubbish everyone entitled to an oppinion and mine is that talk is absolute rubbish ive been acused of talkin rubbish manys a time mainly by my mates its all good fun

moat - admirable that seeing a really good horse in the flesh is enough for you - cant knock that at all - but i also cant knock those that would prefer top races to be highly competitive  - i think this is what people mean when they talk about good for the sport - i dont think it is anything against wpm per se and i dont think they are saying they dont want to see top horses - i think it is simply that they want to see top horses run against each other as often as possible irrespective of who owns/trains them - also surely it is perfectly natural to want to see tight finishes even in grade 1 races and for there to be mystery and intrigue leading up to a race - there is only so many 1/2 shots 6-1 bar for top races that racing can take before the only fans left are the real purists like yourself - just take a look at this years GC and how it captures our imagination when 1) there are multiple top class horses entered and 2) one is not head and shoulders above the rest - This sport needs more than just purists to flourish and it needs to remain unpredictable. For the most part sports insist that the 1st and second rank in the sport or in a particular discipline within a sport take each other on and it is nearly always these encounters that summon the most interest and become the showcase events that inspire followership. What if Vautour and Djak avoid each other in March - is it enough just that they are there for people to see - for the purists yes but for others that want to see them race each other and are disappointed if they dont- surely that is understandable too.

I think what is happening now is ok for a period of time but at some point most people will want more from the NH season. It is not WPMs fault but if he or anybody thinks that this sport can continue to thrive without people like impossible and budd remaining fans i think they are mistaken.

Yes the world changes would be boring if it didnt and it will keep on changing im far from just a purist there is someting for every taste out there and my tastes are varied just my oppinion think there is a lot of nonsense being talked the sport is great now it will still be great if Willie carrys on as is or if he doesnt and then hopefully in another lifetime you will see another force come along thats in my oppinion I genuinely think a lot of nonsense being talked, unhealthy for the sport and fans ,come on people are seeing problems that arent there Sorry cant help myself its a load of rubbish

apologies Moat on another thread you said you were excited at the prospect of seeing Douvan - recognising its a 3 horse race and he is 1-10 and stone or so in hand of 2nd fav i assumed your excitement was because it was Douvan - thats what i meant by purist - it is the horse you are looking forward to not the competitiveness of the race. Others would much prefer it if the top 2 mile novice chase in ireland was a little more competitive. Again this is not wpms fault and as you say it is change and great that we have a horse like Douvan to enjoy.

No offense taken and i hope none given

absolutely none - i actually meant it as a compliment

Cracking thread Firmly against impossible's views there. Sport is always cyclical. There will be years in the future Mullins won't be doing as well as he is now. Nobody can begrudge him his success though we would like to see his best face off vs each other but that's another argument. The assumption from plenty here seems to be that Hendo, Nicholls, Pipe could win the same races with the same horses. That is presumptive and an insult to Mullins and his team.

Quite simply he has the best jockey in Ruby, a decent support team, supportive owners and great scouts. That didn't happen overnight. The onus is on Hendo, Nicholls, Pipe, O'Neill, Hobbs to find a way to compete. IF only Hendo can add more hours and days to the year but he'd probably still need more time! If only Nicholls could have kept Skelton, Fry, Ruby and remain humble! If only Pipe could've got more owners like Roger Brookhouse, Tisdall and Bryan Drew spending even more money! If only O'Neill wasn't so obsessed with handicap gambles! If only.. 

For every Suarez and Neymar, there's a Messi, Pique, Xavi, Iniesta who benefited from the culture of the club. Mullins has created THAT culture of success. The ball is firmly in his rivals' court. Their move....

Trust me im not counting my money for March i think these races are more competive than people think a lot of value gone if your not an antepost person likemyself but if you fancy some of the other in the so called goodthing races there is value im on Min but fear Altior bigtime im on Faugheen but fear Peace and co Dont fear a thing against Douvan . Cheltenham is like an abusive relationship sometimes wonder why you put yourself through this every year climbing the walls and praying your horses get there safe and sound

where did I heard that story of P Nicholls going to France to buy a horse in a weekend, he saw the home gallop and Mullins people snatched that exact same horse by Monday evening :) Someone would get all these good horses anyway so the game is bound to change at the top of trainers rank, depending on luck and how good contacts each trainer has. Its good tho that one like Willie got there at the top as he had a long journey starting from the bottom and even though I still hate him for not sending AP and UDS for the `14 CH and for not giving Faugheen a prep for Chelt in last years Irish CH, but he did these for HF who helped to get the current affairs rolling so you can understand Mullins protectionism. Anyway I'm glad he had such good fortunes of late, even though most of his stars have yet to come out of novice company there are some that could also make it to the top and good for him. Why wasn't anyone complaining of Nicholls when he had the exact same situation few years ago ? So I agree @moat this is just complaining for the sake of it.

and @MS, flat racing has rarely captured the wide public attention in recent history as when Frankel, especially as a 4yo, was winning those G1 races by wide margin as short odds on favourite. It still was unpredictable because anything could happen in a G1 race and nothing is unbeatable like we found out recently with Faugheen when the jockey and trainer don't do their proper job. That pressure of doing everything right with Sir HC and TQ in Frankel's last season provided remarkable moments, much more than the following year's renewal of those races without him, I mean I can't even remember off the top of my head who won `13 Sussex? Toronado? but I do remember Frankel clashing with Canford and destroying Farhh the next year. I remember Faugheen's first CH, its recent I guess but I remember all the hypa and excitement for Sprinter's Arkle and I will remember which ever short price Mullins novice horse will win at the festival in style. We tend to remember horses like this that have our attention and they're the ones that make this sport great, not the "tight finishes" or "mystery... leading up to a race"

Aul Henry RIP top toff top class and some career some magic horses and saved best to last Frankel wow dont think youl never see a 2000 guineas like it, my jaw was hanging for a good while after that

A great amount of ground work gives his horses huge base layers of muscle.

That's the bit where I'd appreciate a deeper explanation.

I think what happens is that Mullins actually tries to win and develop the horse.

Vast majority of other Irish trainers are fiddlers who are infatuated with handicapping and punts (Thinking this keeps their owners happy). When your average Mullins novice/bumper horse hits the course, its rare the horse is unfit or lacking for schooling where as a Tony Martin horse winning on debut over hurdles would be followed by satan rising from the depths of hell to collect his winnings from a freezing flying pig.

Henderson and Nicholls are as good as Mullins, problem is though they dont have the deep pockets of Wiley, Ricci and gigginstown.

Thats a bit strong vast majority fiddlers mmm if your not running in the graded races of course your gonna be fiddlin as you call it Id say any of those do called fiddlers with a moscow , brave inca , hardy eustace , wouldnt be fiddling id think they would be doing the same as the trainers who had them your just stating the obvious if you have handicappers in your yard your gonna be focused on handicaps because thats all there is to focus on Vast majority well again usually in any large sport fewer are at the top , Elephants are pretty big animals   ooops just stated the obvious

Well I completely agree with Miltons and Impossible,like me they simply want an exciting time leading up to the festival looking forward to races like the gold Cup,that along with the World Hurdle do look like being competitive with the top horses running.....hope Mullins lets us enjoy Vautour and Djakadam.He don't normally.
For me it's what sport is about,competitiveness,excitement in the build up and seeing the best compete against each other.
I'm afraid Mullins takes some of that away from me,so forgive me if I have concerns for my sport,cos I have.
Imagine how it must be up in Scotland with Celtic........god that must get tedious.
Different level maybe,but same principal involved,and who knows where this will end?
Would agree other trainers/owners need to up their game,but it would also be good if top horses at one yard took each other on more often.
We would still see the best horses,but instead of a romp with horses easing down and coasting home smoking a cigar,we would see proper finishes,now that's what I call exciting.
Each to their own though.

Just to through another angel on competitivness 4 days and more races has had an effect ,what we all should wary off is another day that would be a bad day. Again i think some of these races are going to be harder to win than youd think and more competitive than youd think ITS CHELTENHAM

Moat - agree the races are likely to be more competitive than the markets have us suggest - but imo the NH season needs to be about a lot more than just cheltenham and races are getting ridiculously uncompetitive imo, particulalrly over in ireland - and i can understand why some are finding that frustrating - god forbid if chelt ever starts losing its competitiveness - i personally would never want that to happen.

Timtin - not sure why you are quoting frankel at me - i agree the sport needs its superstars - never said it didnt - but it also needs to be highly competitive at the highest level - you talk about faugheen - not so long ago the front page of the racing p had headline 'magnificent seven' there were seven top horses all pitching up for the CH. This captured EVERYBODYS attention not just the fans of one horse. You will remember Faugheens CH. i will remember Jezki and MTOY battling up the hill more - i am not saying you are wrong it is just a personal thing - i think racing needs competitiveness and it needs the excitememnt of the best against each other and i dont want anything to threaten that. I remember Kauto v Denman more than i remember HF or Faugheen. In fact i will ALWAYS remember how i felt when UDS and AP didnt turn up for CH.

Also you mention flat racing - so which race is shown over and over and over (more than any other in history) ..... bustino v grundy - why do you think that is

Emotion of Hurricane Fly winning aside, my fav Champion Hurdle was Punjabi, Binocular and Celestial Halo. In the grand scheme of things, three pretty average horses (in comparison to the Champion Hurdle "greats"), but a race I will never forget (think I backed Osana that day).

Also, when an ageing Kauto and Denman were swinging around the final bend with the up and coming Long Run in a line of three in the Gold Cup, that is one of the greatest sites I've seen on a racecourse.

I'll always remember a demolition job like Master Minded, Sprinter, Dunguib but performances like that are better few and far between because that's what makes them memorable. If they soon become the norm, then unfortunately they'll just be another winner.

Miltons you could be right i dont know il be honest two reasons i go to the races one would be because its a big meeting and its the card that attracts me the othrr is a day out and im looking at the horses on the day if the racing isnt that competitive im still enjoying the day, yes agree would be better if the racing was more open how big a problem that is on a week to week basis id say youd know better than me but yes would agree racing over here seems less open but is that going to be massively detremental i dont know things change idealy you would prefer more open racing on a week to week basis but this isnt a massive issue with me personally as a racegoer may be a bigger issue in other areas just dont know

Rather than aim frustration at Mullins, who is simply trying to buy, train and place horses to the best of his ability (as are all the top trainers), my frustration is aimed at Racing in general as it is the industry that has allowed this lack of competition to happen. For example if there were no JLT chase then there would have been little option but for UDS and Vautour to clash, if there were no Ryanair there would be no debate about Vautour and Djakadam etc... There are too many top class races for too few top class horses (and too many are now conditions events too - today's Clarence House being a prime example).

If it was down to me there would be a Grade 1 2m and 3m conditions hurdle and chase before the New Year (Bula, Long Walk, Tingle Creek, King George) and then the same again at Cheltenham. Aintree could then hold the intermediate 2.5mile Grade 1 races. In between the only graded races should be handicaps. As it stands we have the Schloer, Tingle Creek, Desert Orchid, Clarence House, Game Spirit and Champion Chase all as 2m graded conditions races and only a handful of viable candidates (and without Mullins' and other Irish trainers would be even worse). The Novice pattern (particularly over fences) is even more of a joke.

Unfortunately too many vested interests to make any effective changes so we will be stuck with generally uncompetitive (there are thankfully exceptions - King George) top class races. Kudos to Mullins though for running his 3 champion hurdle hopes tomorrow.

Yip Ormonde that seems to be the logical soltion to make graded races more competitive, reason for not doing that im sure there are some im not clever enough to know, but agree seems to make sense to me

Very much agree with Ormonde's comments and I'd add something which exacerbates the problem which is the trend for trainers to seek to arrive at Cheltenham with their horses often having two or if we're lucky three prior races during the season. Go back a few years and the top horses were called race horses and if they were fit they raced. It would make a heck of a difference if horses arrived at these big races at Cheltenham with an average of five or six races behind them. Imagine Usain Bolt turning up for the Olympics after one or two prep races during the season.

I agree with the comment about the great memories. My own is also Kauto, Denman and Long Run coming down that hill like the Charge Of The Light Brigade. The old versus the new. It sent tingles down my spine. I don't think it would have been the same watching Kauto run up a string of Ryanair's leaving the Gold Cup to Denman.

another 100K in the bag today in England, getting closer each week to the title

Can't knock him for having all three entered tomorrow as well. How much they will race each other is another thing though.

Do not get me wrong, I'm a great admirer of the achievements of Mr Mullins in Jump Racing, nonetheless I'd also like to see the best horses running against one another, all things equal; when a trainer repeatedly runs his horses with sp of long odds-on each time eg Vroum Vroum Mag, to name one, despite the potentials in his yard and multiple their entries in the big races eg Cheltenham, as a racing fan and someone who'd pit his wits against betting firms or fellow racing fans (Betfair) I find that difficult to accept and fathom.

Douvan was an accomplished winner of the Supreme (16f) last year and the natural progression would be the Champion Hurdle (CH) eg Peace and Co (winner of the Triumph/16f); I believe Mr Mullins had intimated, but for Faugheen, Douvan would have been campaigned for the CH this year - the same ownership does not come into it - and Douvan can always take in the Champion Chase (CC) the following year as it is still a very young horse; Douvan (16/17f) is a more appropriate 'campaigner' for the CH than the likes of Nichols Canyon (Neptune), Arctic Fire (16/20/24f) and Identity Thief (16/20f), surely. 

Gigginstown has stated Road To Riches (RTR) - 3rd in 2015 CGC - is a certain runner in the Irish Gold Cup next month but the participation of Don Poli (DP) will be dependent on Mr Mullins, and his plans for the horse regards Cheltenham - I'd be extremely disappointed if Don Poli is scratched from this race as RTR will give a clear indication of where the potential of DP is next month instead of the CGC in March.

Douvan is highly over-rated, he would be behind AF(last CH runner-up) in the CH betting. Supreme horses v rarely win or get close in a CH. NC took the major 2 mile races outside of Chelt as a novice, he took the Royal Bond which was won by 4 future CHlers in the last 15 years, then he won the Deloitte, was only entered in the Neptune as Douvan doesn't stay beyond 2 miles. Then last race of his novice season won the Ireland Champion Novice and at end of year was nominated for Irish Best Horse award. NC was a far better prospect for CH than Douvan ever was.

Don Poli was often thought of as a 4 miler and depending on GC success or flop, he'll be targeted with that in mind for next seasons. If he misses the GC he'll be far less disappointment than when we lost Coneygree for this season.

Any other trainer in his position would've done the same, blaming him is like blaming his success in what he does and the owners he attracts.