Cheltenham Festival
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Coneygree - King George or Lexus?
Coneygree - King George or Lexus?
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Replies: 63
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Not bad at all. Ante post is fraught with risks so you are fortunate to get some back. If they did that with all ante post non runners they would be refunding 70% of the bets placed.
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It could be the work of amateurs if the horse is now paying the price of not being given a full novice season to develop and instead winning a brutal Gold Cup from the front as a novice.
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Not sure if the RSA was that much less brutal?
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They had a horse who is hard to keep sound in the form of his life, the ground perfect for him so they went for the big one and won it and are called amateurs for that? What's to say had they stayed in novice company he would have not been injured this year? Amazing how anybody can criticise how they handled Coneygree last year
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Giving them stick for winning a Gold Cup
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Think we all know he'd have won the RSA head in chest. Couldnt have been more brutal for him from the front in the Gold Cup.
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If he had been ridden in the same way in the RSA he would still have had a hard race and of course it is more likely to have been his run this season that led to the injury-or just an awkward step on the gallops. If he was sound but losing enthusiasm, the GC run could be blamed but not for a new leg injury.
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Agree on enthusiasm however it might have started a physical problem we dont know.
A novice could not have had a more brutal race with as much pressure put on them for such a long stamina laden race against seasoned chasers. He had the engine alright and has a Gold Cup nobody can take away from him. Nobody will ever know whether he may have won 2 or 3 following an RSA triumph giving him time to develop more physically as a chaser. |
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The Gold Cup was his 4th outing over fences, not even an experienced novice tbh.
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Denman had 5 novice chases culminating in an easy 10 length RSA win then had the benefit of experiencing another 3 races including the Hennessy and Lexus (which Coneygree has been forced to miss both) before winning his first Gold Cup in peak condition defeating Kauto Star by 7 lengths. A brutal race which he was well prepared for. This is the course Coneygree could have taken.
5 novice chases The Hennessy The Lexus The Aon Gold Cup, defeating Kauto Star by 7 lengths. |
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After a heart scare, Denman went on to finish second to Kauto Star in the next years Gold Cup before a brilliant weight carrying victory in the Hennessy. He then finished second in the next two Gold Cups what an extended career this horse had as a result of his campaigning and gradual build up as a chaser.
Will we see Coneygree have anywhere near as good a career after a Gold Cup following only 3 runs as a novice? |
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At the risk of one post too many..
Both Denman and Coneygree were 8 years old when winning their Gold Cup. In other words Coneygree was a year older than Denman as a novice chaser. Denman won 1 and came 2nd in 3 Gold Cups, won 2 Hennessys. Coneygree is already on the sidelines after 5 chases. Being only a year older than Denman is the rush to the Gold Cup as an inexperienced novice really justifiable now? |
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Coneygree already missed a year due to injury, and his frailty is well documented. It was partly for this reason the Bradstocks went for the GC as they didn't know if they'd get another chance. They knew he was a monster, sadly he's a fragile one. The prognosis is good for him, but for all we know he might never see a race course again and the Bradstocks have made sure that'll he'll go down in History and not just forgotten as a RSA winner. I think they've done a brilliant job with him.
And to these eyes he seemed every bit as good as last year on his seasonal return and it wasn't until he spread a plate that his injury problems started this time. Give credit where it's due. |
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I think they have done a terrible job with him. Nicholls could have won 2 or 3 Gold Cups and a couple of Hennessy's with Coneygree
If a horse has frailties are you saying running him in a Gold Cup as a front runner after only 3 novice chases is the answer. My god its a strange world we live in if so. Thank god for trainers like Nicholls who give us the pleasure of watching the horses he is gifted with for as long a career as possible giving them every chance to be at their peak for most of that career. It seems we are going to see very little of Coneygree. One year older than Denman look what he achieved, if you subtract one year from Denman's career it is stil going to look a lot more impressive than that of the rushed Coneygree |
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Your basically saying he wouldn't be a fragile horse if he was with PN, which is just ridiculous! Coneygree's injury is UNRELATED to his GC run! If he had done as you said he would of run and probably won the RSA, then put away for the season, then have his come back run, then spread a plate, then miss the season.
Your right that's much better! |
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Dont be silly. You are saying run a fragile horse who is a novice with only 3 chase runs in a Gold Cup as a front runner in case his career doesnt last. Well it looks like that has achieved the latter, I wouldnt call that shrewd campaigning. History tells you that as well. Suppose others may comment now as it is clear what we think.
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Amazing how different people see the same facts and come to opposite conclusions-but that is why we like the sport and exchanges get a market. Denman and Kauto Star apart, very few Gold Cup winners have returned to the same level again. Bobsworth has declined very rapidly despite being given a very similar career to Denman. Lord Windermere, Imperial Commander, Kicking King. Only the Nicholls pair, Best Mate and See More Business have retained much ability in the last few years.
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If he's 100% then yes run him, you seem convinced that he'd be absolutely fine now if he'd run in the RSA, there's nothing to say that DON POLI wouldn't of given him a harder race. This screams of someone who's done their nuts on ante post betting on him and now wants to blame someone else for his mistake.
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I'd like two things for Christmas. People no longer using this awful, could of would of should of nonsense and whoever started it being strung up by their knackers.
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I've still got a foot in both camps on Coneygree. It was a brave and ultimately successful choice to go for the Gold Cup. Who knows if the horse would have subsequently got the softer ground or stayed sound for future campaigns had they not struck while the iron was hot?
I don't have any issues with that aspect of their outfit. This year hasn't been so good from what I can see although I have to concede that I don't have the full knowledge to base a stronger view on. It was a strange start to his campaign taking in a graduation chase. This peculiarity was compounded by incmpetence over the King George entry or lack of it. Then the issue with the will he won't he Hennessy bid and then it appearing that they were rushing the horse to get him ready for a race over Christmas smacked of further incompetence. Had they allowed the horse a few weeks on the easy list when his initial problem surfaced and sought to bring him back for a spring campaign who knows what would have happened? To me though that would have been the logical option with a horse which has suffered some problems in the past. |
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They were right to go for the gold cup. RSA is a tough race itself, no matter who you race against.
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Anybody who has ever owned a horse knows anything can happen tomorrow. You could have the best horse in the land one day, and a retired what might have been the next day.
Had Coneygree been beaten in the GC, then you may have had an argument Eric. But as soon as he won the pinnacle of racing, the race everyone wants to win, then connections were vindicated. To try and argue that he may have stayed sound if he had only won an RSA is pure conjecture. You can't prove that to be the case. Just as anyone who says he would have got injured anyway, can't prove it. But one things for sure, Coneygree will go down in the pantheon of Gold Cup winners, and one of the few novices to ever achieve that feat. I think it's mental to suggest that he has been campaigned badly. Even if fit and at his best, he might never get soft ground on the day again, and potentially the next few years could be much stronger renewals. Even if they had done what you suggest, and even if he had stayed sound, it's decent odds against he would ever win a GC. |
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I remember when Best Mate was winning his Gold Cups. A lot of people were b1tching on about how they never saw him race much and how horses are supposed to race and how Desert Orchid and Arkle were campaigned in handicaps and it never did them any harm etc.
Here's Coneygree and he gives us a thrilling - both in terms of the audacity and ambition and then the way he won it - Gold Cup and there's people saying how that was all wrong too. |
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It was an excellent decision to run Coneygree in the Gold Cup. His run at Sandown showed the GC race had done him no harm.
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