Peace And Co 14\1 5kyBet Today Only.

Is he that ground dependent?

I agree that keeping him sound is a major issue. Is that why he needs soft ground?

Interesting if he turns up for the Greatwood next Sunday.

Sorry - Clondaw Warrior is a possible for the Greatwood - not Clondaw Court

Clondaw Warrior wants good ground. Clondaw Court wants soft and has never been beaten. I understood that they hoped that CC would go chasing but I would imagine they would try hurdling first and if he looked good they might go for the WH.

Last year's juveniles, and therefore Peace And Co, looked well above average. I'm hoping Top Notch will uphold the Triumph Hurdle form first time out today. I fully expect him to put favourite Irving in his place.

Does yesterdays result mean on form lines through Top Notch that Peace And Co is about as good as Irving ? ………..and thus a country mile off Faugheen and Nichols Canyon ?

no.
Top notch having his first race of the season against a race first Irving,so no idea who fit he was.
Also juveniles improve from 4 at different rates.
Best wait till we have seen PAC out imo.

First time out the key factor you think ? Would make sense.

A couple of furlongs from home in The Triumph Geraghty was holding Peace And Co together with a handful. In the last furlong the horse was treading water with Top Notch coming back at him. Which suggests to me that Top Notch is more of a strong staying 2 miler and possibly 2 and a half miler with Peace And Co being a speed horse. I doubt a flat 2 miles showed Top Notch at his best. I also suspect that Peace And Co will be better on decent ground and with the shorter distance and tighter old course of the champion. He's also only seen a racecourse four times.

Which could mean a lot or very little. My best guess is that he needs to find around 12 lbs to push Faugheen which isn't inconceivable. It's always a tough ask as we all know going from four to five and despite the other day I still think Faugheen an above average Champion. I also think irrespective of the Triumph that Peace was a well above average four year old. Part of what makes this sport so compelling in my view.

yeh fair points re Top Notch and being more of a stayer than PAC.
I have backedTN at big odds for the CH but unless it's pretty soft I don't think now that he will run in the race.
PAC will certainly be campaigned for the CH,and would agree it all depends how much improvement he can make from 4-5.

Is he likely to run next week in the fighting fifth has anyone heard any comments?

Decs for the Fighting Fifth out tomorrow.

I doubt Irving would beat Top Notch if they meet again this season.  Henderson has said he thinks he's more of a 2 1/2 miler.  Might be way off but could they send him over fences now with the weight allowance. 4year olds get a decent allowance. Same owner has sent Bristol De Mai over fences and Top Notch is better.  I could be way off though.

Slightly off topic, but the owner has Vyta du Roc too; I think he'll make a great 2.5-3m chaser.

I was getting worried about the form of the Triumph. Hargam beaten twice, Top Notch beaten, Devilment well held in the Greatwood, but then I didn't realise Old Guard finished tailed off in the Triumph and was an impressive winner in the Greatwood.

Think Hargam is going for Fighting Fifth, My Tent or Yours in Christmas Hurdle. Peace & Co for the Bula. Then a prep each in new year before Champion Hurdle.

Personally I think the amount of pace that will be on in the Champion with Nichols Canyon and Faugheen will be absolutely right up Peace and Co's street.

Don't think Peace and Co was treading water at all in the triumph, he jumped the last behind top notch but halfway up the run powerfully got past top notch, he then I believe started to pull himself up a bit.

If he was treading water, you see a more elongated display of it, you see it developing as the tank empties...he flew past top notch and then half stopped all of a sudden, I reckon he needs delivering late and I reckon he is a strong strong stayer over 2 miles.

Agree think he maybe the one to shake up the Mullins entourage.

Personally I like to see MTOY's reappear and not pull anymore, but failing that Peace and Colooks the likeliest winner to me.

Mtoy not showing this Saturday,going International next month with Peace and Co.

Wicklow Brave being supplemented for the Fighting Fifth is a great addition as it will give us an idea of where the English ones are in relation to Nichols Canyon and Faugheen

I don't understand why not target this race with P&C or MTOY ? It makes no sense, its a G1 and it gives you plenty of time to recover for the Christmas Hurdle..

As for relative form, that wasn't the true Faugheen we saw on his first start, the gallop he did destroying NC few days earlier maybe he did too much, plus Ruby got the tactics all wrong against 2 flat horses with finishing speed. If WB wins by 5 lengths or gets beat 5 lengths, it'll mean nothing in relation with Faugheen. I do expect Purple Bay, if he's the same horse, to take this race on trot based on his last year form and 16/1 mmm yummy!!

duffy

Interesting how people see things differently. There's no doubt he stays 2 miles perfectly well. My belief is that he'll be better over the champion distance on the champion course. I've just watched the race again and I see no evidence of this powerful surge to get past Top Notch. Going in to the last Geraghty has asked the horse for nothing with the jockey getting after Top Notch. He does find for being asked but nothing like what he appeared to be travelling with. Same as in January. Which suggests one of two things. Possibly he pulls himself up when he hits the front or 2 miles 1 furlong on soft ground at Cheltenham is as far as he wants to go. Given he's won a couple of times where he's been in front from early in the race I don't think it's the former. I think his greatest attributes are his speed and jumping which I think will be seen to a better effect over the shorter distance, tighter track of the champion and more hurdles in the last few furlongs.

Timtin, Wicklow Brave coming over will give us an idea of potentially were Hargam and Top Notch are against the Irish, thats how form works! You have to assume Faugheen ran his race, no matter what he did on the gallops, as I didn't see any excuses

Wouldn't be any fun if we all see things the same way, I do think there is an issue with him stopping in fron a bit, I stand by my comment that he got to TN strongly and went passed, watch as he goes passed him I think there is quite a marked deceleration, typical of a horse that thinks he's done enough....he was tanking coming to the last, no way IMO he was tired at the line.

No @wellcheif, we would all be millionaires if the form would work out that way, horses don't put up the same performance at every outing. It depends on how the race is run, horse position, the pace, ground, type of course, etc.
It doesn't matter what they did on the gallops, Except when the gallop happened just few days earlier and the horse does TOO much. They travelled to Curragh and Faugheen might have been keen to race, did too much and 'left the race behind' like Mullins said. The form of Morgiana shouldn't be taken at face value. For me there are only 2 G1 horses in the race, Purple Bay who is the pick on last year form and Irving on this years form. If WB wins it doesn't say anything about Faugheen because Irving will race too soon after Haydock and PB might have lost his form from last year.

Again all this is not that important as to why are P&C and MTOY missing from this G1? Not ready yet or ? Hargam surely not good enough..

Chief I reckon youre in a big minority if you believe Faugheen ran his race against NC. If anyone in WM's yard believed NC had a chance of beating Faugheen do you think Paul Townend would have gone to ride in Cork that day. I'll be amazed if NC finishes ahead of Faugheen again this season.

All I'm saying is that from what I saw with my own eyes is that Faugheen had no excuses, and was simply beaten by a better horse on the day. 

Would I expect Faugheen to beat Nichols Canyon when they next meet?  Probbly, yes.  But in that race, Nichols Canyon was simply better, and Faugheen couldn't get to him.  Both were having their first run on the year, so both are entitled to improve from it.

I would rate Nichols Canyon as potenitally better than Arctic Fire, and Faugheen beat him 1.5 lengths, so when NC and Faugheen meet next, I'm not expecting Faugheen to blow him away by 10 lengths.

I wouldn't back either for CH at current prices.  I couldn't back NC at 4's when we don't know if that was a one off, and I couldn't back Faugheen at 2's until I saw him back to his old self.

I can only judge them on what I see on the track, not on the gallops.  I'm not bothered if Faugheen beats him 100 times out of 100 on the gallops to be honest.  For all we know Faugheen might have had a good run on the gallops before every run; it's only now that he's got beat, people are mentioning it.

Again, I agree it doesn't matter what they do on the gallops but what matters is that gallop was not at home, they travelled and Faugheen might have thought its at a race after so much off the track and done too much; it was also only 4-5 days apart from the race itself and the fact that Mullins and Ruby said he left NC out of sight it means Faugheen did too much.

Faugheen first run last year at Ascot wasn't that impressive either with other trainers saying they never seen a horse that fat in a race. He only beat 3 lengths a far less competitive adversary than NC. We all mentioned that, he got away that day because there wasn't a G1 horse in that race, but if it had been and one with NC profile as a small flat horse which gets to race fitness in alot faster time than a chasing type of horse like Faugheen, then it would've resulted in the same beating.

Nevertheless, NC wasn't a better horse on the day, it was Faugheen's : 1. wrong tactics, 2. fitness and 3.jumping mistakes that kept NC in front just in time for the finish. NC will need to improve to get within 5 lengths of Faugheen's normal level. He's 6/1 generally to do that, I'd say if you really believe Faugheen ran his race in Morgiana than take that price. Otherwise if you don't believe that then 7/4 in places and 6/4 generally for Faugheen looks the value bet.

As this is P&C thread I'll return to my question maybe anyone knows why isn't he in the Fighting Fifth ...

I'd certainly like to know the answer to that one timtim.

Is Peace and co not running in the Intl at Cheltenham??

I've seen that reported budd.

Well if he is then that would be the reason he ain't at Newcastle this week.
I know I would rather have my horse running at Cheltenham than Newcastle.

We'll know tomorrow in the International if there's any juice in this 14/1 Bet.  Will be financially and sportingly very disappointed if Peace & Co doesn't dispose of these with a comfortable success.

Agree Shock, hopefully not burning vouchers already should win cosy hopefully.

Bitterly disappointing.

Mr Mullins 1-2-3 again come March..........Peace And Co thinks he is a 5f sprinter.

Too bad to be true...............something must be wrong with the horse.

peace and Co v MTOY - Tug of war - evens the pair

My view hasn't changed. He won the Triumph despite the course and they mugged him with the early gallop today and he burnt himself out. He needs a championship race at championship pace on decent ground to be shown to his best effect and the closer to a flat 2 miles the better. I'd guess they'll be also looking at a wind op.

He made MTOY look relaxed, incidentally, I'll be very interested to see if they have managed to get him settle at all when he reappears, any excuse to back him for the CH and I'll be on him

Apply a ring bit in future and either have a pacemaker or live in hope

Glad I didn't back it today, ran like a drain. Probably still place claims in the Champion Hurdle if it settles. What a head scratcher this Champion Hurdle is starting out to be! Thought Faugheen would dot up and P&C would chase him home.

You're half right, foolsgold.

"He needs a championship race at championship pace on decent ground to be shown to his best effect and the closer to a flat 2 miles the better"

Agree. The Christmas Hurdle is his ideal race but i still wouldn't give him a decent chance against Faugheen. Going to be a tough horse to place to win a Grade 1 with. GL

Bubble well and truly burst today. Didn't fancy him for the Champion Hurdle as the Triumph Hurdle form isn't being upheld, but thought he could progress enough to beat that lot. Very disappointing the way he ran like an idiot.

Or......

A massive over-reaction by the layers to one poor run, with reasonable excuses (fitness, pace)by a Cheltenham Champion?

If he lines up on the day (and The CH has to be his only target) then will he really be 20/1?

triumph form 9-10 crap

Triumph form seems pretty good to me.

maelduin

Any four year against a champion hurdler is a massive ask I'd agree.

Thats one ante-post in tatters for me, very disappointing.

Take a chill-pill folks.

Peace and Co would have had to totally gone at the game and be unbelievably bad (Admittedly, 'again') in his Cheltenham prep race(s) to go off at 20/1 or bigger.

If he is as poor again, I can't see Henderson running him.

If he's not,today was a wholly explainable blip and he's in the hands of a master trainer who can ready one for Cheltenham as well as anyone, then 20/1 looks huge. Okay, you look a bit of a Charlie if you took 8/1 about him, but then we're all big boys and girls when it comes to ante-post punting and we have to live with that sometimes.

For the record, I have backed him today at 20/1 (PP) and no, I don't think he will win the CH, merely shorten in the betting when (ha!) he wins his prep race.

Agreed. 20-1 each way is a mans price and I'll be getting stuck in.

think he would make a top class stayer on the flat, different class to clever cookie

not sure where he could go next, all champ hurdle trails tend to be small fields and other jocks will ride slow to get him lit up, wouldnt surprise if he was out for the season anyway.

It'd be a wind op and back for The Elite or whatever it's called at Wincanton.

Don't get the pooh poohing of the Triumph at all to be honest.
I stick with my thinking that the front 3 are good and better than yer normal juveniles.

Top notch has run 2 good races,especially considering that his trainer thinks he's more of a stayer.
Hargam takes time to get fit according to Hendo,and I thought yesterday on ground too soft for him,he ran a darn good race.
PAC could not finish his race off....not many could I imagine with the way he ran,although I would be amazed if something is not amiss with him.

Plus when talking about the Triumph...Old Guard ain't doing too shabby!!

I also found it funny Bud that people are crabbing the Triumph form after today's race when it was won by a horse who ran in the Triumph.

I ain't no vet, but I don't understand how a horse that is struggling to breath would actually go off like a scalded cat for 3/4 of the race and make the problem worse...wouldn't you expect the opposite to happen?

That's a good question duffy. I don't know the answer but I can hazard a guess. Compared to for example flat sprints events I'd say jumps races tend to be more aerobic rather than anaerobic events. Even the shape and musculature is often markedly different. An easy comparison from something we'd all understand would be the difference between Usain Bolt and Mo Farrah. In a sprint Bolt may either not breathe or perhaps breathe a couple of times. I do triathlon and where I can particularly notice this is in the pool. I can swim really fast perfectly comfortably not having to worry about breathing too much probably up to about 200 metres but when I swim much beyond this significant changes occur and even if I'm swimming significantly slower once I get beyond about 6-700 metres I'm blowing out of my backside. I only have to get my timings off by a relatively small amount and I can suffer greatly. In distance running events many world records are run off negative splits ie a slower first half of the race.

The physiological question of how and why the breathing issue comes to the fore needs to be explained by someone knowledgable in the area but again I'd guess it only occurs at certain times in certain circumstances. If it was something immediately detectable, for example in routine exercise, then it would probably be unusual for it to come out in races as it would almost certainly be identified on the gallops and corrected before racing.

That said it seems logical that the horse hasn't got a clue until a certain point with for want of a better term energy already expended by it doing what it wants to do (in this case run like a lunatic.) I have heard it reported by trainers that where horses have regularly suffered this issue when it is cleared by operation it takes a little time for the penny to drop. What is obvious to most students is we are dealing with races where winners decelerate more slowly than the losers with it usually being an optical illusion that horses are actually quickening at the end of championship races.

I have to say that I can't fancy P&C at all now for The Champion Hurdle.  I appreciate that the race will be run at a different tempo compared to Saturday, however that will suit all manners of challengers as well.  The certainty is though, that P&C can't win, if it does happen to be a dawdle.
  Therefore, surely Top Notch (same owner, who is a good horse in his own right but not good enough to win a Champion) has to make the pace. He's good enough so that he has to be kept tabs on and therefore can't be left an uncontested lead. He will then generate the pace needed for P&C.  Whether P&C is good enough I have my doubts, but there would be no excuse and would give the horse the best possible chance IMO.

After the Triumph Hurdle I felt the form was strong enough to provide the Champion Hurdle winner. Before the Peace and Co debacle I had decided it wasn't and I mentioned my concerns on another thread before the race. It's not that I think the horses who ran well in the Triumph aren't good, more that I think they're not great. When I say I think the Triumph form isn't being upheld, it is with respect to providing a winner of the Champion and I stick to my view that none of the horses who ran in the Triumph will win the Champion. If that's interpreted as crabbing the Triumph form then so be it.

shockster

He'd be doing a job for MTOY's too it that respect, I'm really looking forward to seeing him again.

It will probably be strongly run in any case, but after Saturdays embarrassment Henderson has to ensure that it is. As you say MTOY is another who'll not settle if they amble over the first few.  Pacemaker has to be a good horse though to make sure they keep it in their sights.

Hargam would appreciate a strong gallop as well.
Hendo could well be looking at the pace of the race,not sure Top Notch will be used though,he could be a lively WH horse the way his trainer is talking.
He would be ideal though.

I'm convinced Top Notch is at least a two and a half miler but count me out for the World Hurdle. I'm not sure which horse was the last five year old to win that race but from memory I don't think they have a good record.

Not sure either re 3 miles,but Hendo mentioned the Cleeve hurdle the other day,so he must be thinking about the wH,maybe the following year would make more sense?
Personally think they should stick to a 2m - 2m4 this season. Enter in the CHurdle and go for it if it comes up soft , if not then the Aintree Hurdle would be a good race for him.

I'd be gearing the campaign around the Aintree hurdle this year myself. My personal view is he won't be fast enough for the champion or strong enough this year for the World Hurdle. He may benefit from not going to Cheltenham. The other question is whether they are thinking about a chasing campaign next season with him?

That Would be a real shame for me if TN went chasing,just love him jumping hurdles,he is for me the best hurdler of a hurdle around,and one of the best I have ever seen.
Just hope his optimum distance is found and then he's campaigned accordingly to his level,whatever that may be.
I do have a feeling he's not quiet getting the rub of the green with people,and feel that as a 4yr old with any amount of improvement,he should get a tad more respect,not only is he superb at his hurdles he's also yet to run a bad race.

'he's also yet to run a bad race'
Well today's run falls into that category for Top notch considering he was 13/8 fav. The heavy going can be put forward as an excuse but it was the same for the four who finished ahead of him. I don't think he's one to rely on.

I'm not sure if it's relevant to his average showing but he badly reached for one early on the far side.

yeh,thanks for that autocue!!
So he ran a bad race today,and now he's not one to rely on.
Maybe we should wait to hear what happened,or do we think that was his true running?
I don't.

He proved he's a very good horse against Identity Thief. Little more needs to be said. I was a little surprised to see him so short today.

they all try to transform them into stayers, first AF now TN and its not going to work, their best form is over 2m. NTD was right when keeping TNO at his best trip, they shouldn't run scared of a single horse.

It's not just a reaction to today's race. I told you a while back I thought he was starting to look like an 'after you Maud' sort of horse.

well I will let him have a few more runs yet before judging him.
He's just started his senior career and will improve both for experience and age.

Also it will help when his connections find his distance and stick to it.
Seems to me they don't know yet,and are still testing the water.

I do think that distance should be ideal for the horse in time and granted decent ground but he's being very highly tried this season given he's twice previously gone up against decent horses off levels and he's only just come out of the juveniles. Then today he's expected to slosh through knee deep mud against the champion stayer.

I'm questioning his resolution when it gets tough, that's all. He should have beaten Irving on ability imo and that run caused me to doubt him.

They're closely matched it seems:

Horse	BEST RPR	OR
Irving	161	162
Top Notch	162	158

I expect alot more improvement from Top Notch over 2m. Irving looks exposed, 162 horse at best.

well he's entitled to improve at his age. Doubt Irving can.
Yeh his resolution can be looked at,but he was pretty resolute in the Triumph I thought.
Think they need to rest him now,he's been pretty busy for a youngster.

So his trainer has just said maybe the 2 races in quick succession had an affect on him.
Gonna freshen him up now.
Good.

Still say they should run Top Notch as a pace maker for Peace & Co. Neither horse has a prayer if it's not a strong pace.

That's not a bad call Shock.
He's one they could not ignore in the front and should help PAC settle.
Personally as I have backed TN for the CH,I would love to see it,and for the race it would be quiet exciting to watch his jumping from the front.
Mind you,Walsh might not let it happen!!

Saw some signs of life in Hargam in the Christmas Hurdle, that was by far his best run of the season and probably his career.

He'll get nowhere near Faugheen in March, but beaten less than a length by The New One, I'm still hoping based on last year's Triumph he can finish near Peace and Co and Top Notch again, which will give him place claims anyway.

yep,I agree he's place claims.
He's a horse that takes time to get right so his trainer says.
I would think come March he will be at his best,and definite e/w value imo.

I hope someone has the bottle to set a fast pace in the Champion Hurdle as Faugheen's jumping needs to be put under pressure. They all seem to say after you Ruby nowadays in championship races and that guy has a metronome in his head when given an easy lead, last year's champion hurdle being a case in point.

Well they tried outspeeding him last year and TNO & Jezki were cooked in the end by trying to go with his speed from the top of the hill. Now they might as well try to outstay him in a strongly run race and put his jumping under pressure. They do say the way to crack a stayer(like Faugheen) is to force them to do too much early on, that theory was somewhat dismissed on Faugheen in his `14 Xmas Hurdle when he followed a really fast pace but perhaps on a track like Chelt he won't handle it. It won't hurt them to try especially for NH, as its vital for P&C and MTOY to have a solid pace to follow so Hendo will surely assign TN for that, although IT's and NC's jockeys will also want to lead to see them at their best.

I have seen no evidence so far to suggest that the 4 now 5yo hurdlers are much good. Old Guard probably the best but 20lb behind Faugheen.

Slightly random question but does anyone have an idea as to how well that French horse Blue Dragon would do in a churdle??? .. Just thinking if connections decided to have late entry for him, how it could alter the market..

Not as much as if P&C will put a good show on his next outing. I've seen some of his races last year but French form is very hard to assess and don't think many will take notice, unless of course he comes to England and has a very good trial, and even then he'll most likely take the place of another horse in the market rather than force F odds out.

Would be good to see the return of French trained horses here but in general they get better prize money in France.

i've noticed the money in france is substantial.. there's a horse called milord thomas which had racked up over £1.2m in prize money before turning 7 years old!

Which begs the question, why doesnt mullins, nicholls, henderson etc get stuck in???

Also, i thought France was bankrupt so where does the money come from?!!

I think it's because everyone in France bets on the PMU rather than with bookies, so a lot more money stays within racing and can offer better prize money.

Don't quote me on that though!!

wellchief, you are right about funding but the overround is much higher than ours so is that in the interests of punters? Irish prize money is better than ours but of course there are far less races to spread it over and entry fees per race must he far higher than here. Regarding Mullins, he does have a lot of runners in the big summer races in France and Thousand Stars won there last time out. British trainers do seem slow to take advantage apart from one or two trail blazers.

for example the grand steeple chase de Paris is worth £300k to the winner and On His Own went off 7/2 2nd favourite in last year's renewal in May.. Just hold back one of the better horses and you could still pick off cheltenham and then go to this race.

Given it's spring, Don Cossack would bolt up!!

The french champion hurdle has been won by gemix twice and he has been soundly beaten by UDS (twice) and by More of That (by 61L).. this takes place in June and is worth £140k to the winner... why not get faugheen over there to mop up?? or perhaps it could be an end of season warm down for UDS!

I had a day at Auteuil in autumn 2010. A pleasant stoll from my accomodation near the Eiffel Tower, free entry and I could wander wherever I wanted around the course and the stands. Had a lovely lunch overlooking the track. I lost on every race but considered it a great day out. The thing I was most impressed about was the quality of the prize money given it was a quiet meeting. It averaged £35k over eight races! The minimum was £17k for a handicap hurdle. I couldn't understand why there were no British trainers there with runners. The only English guys I saw were James Reveley who had one ride and the connections Aerial, who was very tenderly ridden before running on in eye catching fashion to finish just outside of the places. "Held up in final third of field, 8th after 3 out and running on, took 4th run-in, never threatened leaders"
Soon after, Aerial moved to Paul Nicholls as planned and the 100/30 favourite hosed up first time out at Wincanton.
"Travelled well tracking leaders, disputed lead 10th until clear leader after 4 out, shaken up when hit 2 out, soon well in command, comfortably"
I'm not bitter or anything.
British trainers - if you have a horse that loves soft ground, would have enjoyed jumping around Windsor and doesn't mind the smell of garlic, take it to Auteuil! Apologies for the digression.

The stanjames.com Champion Hurdle Trial at Haydock on January 23 has emerged as the next target for Peace And Co.

Nicky Henderson's Triumph Hurdle winner has questions to answer after his seasonal reappearance at Cheltenham last month went anything but to plan.

He was seen as the main threat to Faugheen's Champion Hurdle crown in March but pulled ferociously on his return in the International Hurdle and ended up trailing in last of six behind Old Guard, losing his unbeaten record in the process.

Peace And Co returned with a few minor issues, but is now ready to visit the track again.

Anthony Bromley, racing manager for Peace And Co's owners Simon Munir and Isaac Souede said: "Peace And Co is moving well again.

"He should be going to the Champion Hurdle Trial at Haydock.

"That's the plan we have for him at the moment and he should get to Haydock."

Ducking the Haydock trial. Another horse Nicky isn't happy with.

its becoming a habit with Hendo, I don't know what could possibly go on at his stable to have so many horses off the track with no reason. Don't think the owners are happy if they're as informed as we are.

Military security around Henderson's place. Not sure what he thinks he's hiding. I reckon a lot of his success was down to Corky Brown and he must be getting on a bit now.

Completely agree timtin. And, together with nicholls, moaning about lack of race opportunities.... Mullins must be laughing his way to British trainers championship!

Have backed Peace and Co for Champion Hurdle, not holding out much hope tbh of even showing?