Would Don Poli have beaten Conergree

RSA on Weds had good ground and a couple of horses taking each other on for the lead (Kings Palace and TYM), both factors would have been against Coneygree. I think Don Poli would have won in those conditions.

I don't understand the RSA ante-post backers crying over what might have been. It's a completely different race and the rain hadn't arrived yet. It's far from certain he would have won on Wednesday.

don poli is a plodder - hence 4 mile entry.won a weak division,kings palace 2.5miler,young master hcper,

Both plodders.Why do people think speed demons win Gold Cups.

All the big guns will have pacemakers in next year to take Coneygree on for the lead.

The ground this year destroyed Coneygrees competition,Holywell RTR CL LW BB.Still it was a brilliant performance.

I think they always knew where they were going with Don Poli and the 4 mile option was done to throw people off the scent. O'Leary's interview afterwards was informative in that respect and plodders don't tend to win over two and a half at the festival.

mullins said hes one paced

Form book doesn't lie. Don Poli is an exceptional novice chaser, overcame all sorts of stats to land the RSA and beat the opposition hollow. Anyone who believes the horse is slow is deluded. Whether he would have beaten Coneygree is a totally different question.

No, not in GC

No but Vautour might have.

comingupthehill

Well if Mullins said he was then of course....... err didn't he say Faugheen was going chasing this season? Still if it's an honest man you're looking for look no furth...............err Wicklow Brave.

In short I don't care what Mullins or anybody else says. I don't pay his wages so don't expect honesty. I judge by what I see and I saw Don Poli coming up the hill like his ar5e was on fire at the festival last year over two and a half. There is a difference between being lazy and being slow. The horse could be said to be lazy and O'Leary's exact words after the race were, "he's a big lazy bugger". He is certainly not slow.

Not a chance Don Poli would of beaten Coneygree,  these comments about pace makers to take him on are just senseless  On His own tried, but couldn't stay with him. The time he ran from the front on that ground was one of the best  runs I can remember, doing it it a gold cup was unbelievable!  Don Poli was impressive, but he only had to run to a mid 150 rating to win that RSA and although he obviously had plenty left in the tank , to suggest he would have beaten Coneygree in one of the most attritional gold cups I can remember is ................ ( fill in your own offensive comment)

Slightly futile debate isn't it. Coneygree won the big one and won it really well. Ran everything else in to the ground. I didn't think it would happen but was very wrong. Add in the fact he is a novice and you have without question the performance of the Festival. They can all try to take him on up front but that is a recipe for disaster as his cruise speed and pure jumping are his number one strengths. Don Poli is 6. Djakadam is 6. Both from Willies stable. Road to Riches and Don Poli are both owned by Gigginstown. If Wille or Gigg thought Don Poli was better than either Djakadam or RtR this year then he would have been in the Gold Cup. He wasn't and Coneygree beat the best of Willie's and the best of Gigginstown's. So, in my opinion, its a definite and very clear "no" to the OP question of whether Don Poli would have beaten Coneygree. Next year may be different but this year the best staying chaser in UK and Ireland won the Gold Cup and he did it in great style as a front runner and a novice. Was beautiful to watch. Lets pay appropriate homage to a great performance.

Completely agree hayling

waloc no1 knows the answer,its like listening in the schoolyard (my mum no's more than your mum)

DEC - you will note that I did quote "in my opinion"…….certainly not claiming to know more than my mum or your mum. Now that would be futile !

I think King's Palace has Hennessy written all over, fresh and at his best FTO, receiving over a stone from Coneygree, travels well on the pace..

till his 2 dangers tried to take the 4th last home with them don poli hadnt past a horse,and this novice tag is really a bit of a red herron these days,the gold cup winner was 2 yrs older than the 2nd and 3rd and who knows at home could have jumped a 1000 more fences than them,alegedly he was intensivly schooled over fences days before the race,novice,2nd season chaser the only race it realy counts in is the hennesy as the rest of the time they usualy meet in conditions races,
could never understand his price this year early season fav but next year if the rains dont arrive hollywell must be the bet

The form of the GC has a much more solid look to it than the RSA.

I think one thing we should remember is that it's rare for a horse to come out of a Gold Cup and win it the following year. Comments about Djakadam, Road to Riches and Holywell should be treated with this caution. Remember similar things after Bobs Worth 8yo then and Sir De Champs 7yo then in 2013.

Don Poli will never win a GC with that kind of jumping.

Don't really get this ramping up his win because he's a novice malarkey,Fair enough,Yeah he is,But he's an 8 yo,Not a 6 yo,
Big differnce imo.

I think it's ramped up because plenty of people before the race were against him running because he is a novice - none of those people appeared to object to a 6yo with barely more experience running in the race - it seemed solely because they could n't label him as a novice.

The two best jumping performances all week (and arguably for many a year) were both by novices with a total of 6 completed chases between them beforehand.

strange tag really because the worn route for future gold cup horse used to be
rsa novice ,no run untill returning as 2nd season chaser,[novice compared to 3rd or 4th season chaser ]  in hennesy then aimed at gold cup.
so he hasnt ran between rsa and hennesy but its considered the ideal route even though the rsa used to be considered a rough,tough  race that took it out of those who ran in it.
with its weight conygree will now probably bypass hennesy

An emphatic NO to the opening question.

cant see coneygree being the same horse next year, think it would bottomed him, it was now or never with him and think they knew it, doubt they would get him same place again, don poli is a much better long term prospect.

Well that's possible of course,but nothing more than that at this stage.
I prefer to look at all the potential runners for next year at this stage without thinking so and so may not be the same.
Coneygree in the form of last week would have DP struggling way out imo.

DP just won what was imo a poor RSA,Coneygree just won imo a good Gold Cup,and thrashed most of them.the very impressive King george winner beaten senseless!!
That performance should not be underestimated.

I agree Budd, Coneygree's gold cup was one of the most impressive GC winners I can remember and every ones already talking about DP and vautour beating him??! They were both I catching performances, but what Coneygree did to that GC field was unbelievable and I would of thought that the race would of more likely left its mark on Dj and R2R than Coneygree. They were forced to go his pace and are less mature horses. The winner just went his natural pace and was far from stopping up the hill.

As for the KG I would of thought that he is unbelievable value, especially when you factor in his annihilation job at the course. if there's any soft in the description I believe a horse would have to post one of the highest ratings in the races history, as it would be guaranteed to be a true test.

If I was having a bet in the Gold Cup now theres a few I'd probably pick over Vautour at this stage.

Don't get me wrong he absolutely wowed me in the JLT, but we've seen so many in the past that don't stay despite their breeding/what the trainer thinks etc.

If he does stay, he's the one to beat imo (even ahead of Coney) but I'd rather be on Don P at the minute.

Fair do's I've backed Apache, and no idea if he stays so don't won't to sound like double standards just one is 6 and one is 80 so worth the risk imo.

Road to Riches is too big a price now as well. He would have not liked the ground yet is twice the price of Djakadam.

budd, what makes you say that it was a poor RSA renewal please?

Well as always time will tell if I am right or not,but my feelings are aside from the winner I don't see any of the others becoming top class,and I have doubts weather he will.
I guess I should really wait a bit before judging a novice race,cos they would be improving types,it's just my gut feeling.

before cheltenham coneygree's conections thought the gold cup might have been the easier race this year

There was only 1 top class prospect in the RSA and he won.

The Gold Cup was red hot. No comparison in the form at all. None.

Red hot!!!!!!!!

Competitive yes. Ran at a good pace, yes.

Red hot!!!! No

I thought the RSA looked a strong race on paper before the race but I agree I doubt it will turn out that way. Coneygree and Champagne West not running didn't help it either.

However when you look at recent RSA's there's only normally one (possibly two) who ever emerge as long term top prospects.

Its not normally like other novice races that will be littered with future winners imo.

I think Southfield Theatre will turn out to be very decent and Kings Palace will continue to win pots away from the Festival, so possibly stronger than recent RSAs.
However, that Gold Cup was a very deep field. Who wasn't there? The winners of every recognised trial, the last two winners and the top novices from last season and one from this season were there, bar OFB (whose form was represented by Many Clouds and Smad Place). OK, perhaps no Kauto or Denman, but they were the exception, not the norm.
Make no mistake, it was an excellent Gold Cup, won in a breathtaking fashion. If the race doesn't leave it's mark on the first 4, then any novice stepping up will have it's work cut out next season. My only concern is that attritional Gold Cups, such as this renewal, invariably do leave their marks.

My only concern is that attritional Gold Cups, such as this renewal, invariably do leave their marks.
that is absolutely what will happen, all the horses coming out of this year's gold cup will be vulnerable to vautour, don poli and pals

It's what might happen,also it might not happen.
Personally I think all the first 4 will be fine to compete again next season.

Oh, I'm sure you're right Bud. No doubt they will be competitive in lots of races throughout next season. But the CGC is a unique test and it's rare that horses are able to reproduce their first run in that race. It's always run that half a pace faster than a typical G1 3 mile chase, it's an idiosyncratic track and of course it's a full 500 yards further. I also have a feeling that horses 'remember' that first experience and won't put themselves through it again.
I hope that Coneygree, in particular, can buck that trend, as that was as impressive performance as I've seen for many a year, bar Denmans demolition job.

Bit of a nonsense thread really. Don Poli won the RSA on good ground. Coneygree won the Gold Cup on soft ground. Whose was the better performance? - Coneygree's undoubtedly. Will Don Poli be a Gold Cup horse in 2016....almost certainly. I can't believe the crabbing of this horse. Look at his form and tell me what's he's done wrong.....defied all the stats for an RSA winner, beat them hollow and still very unexposed.

Don Poli is being overrated and it just doesn't fit that he should be worthy of discussion amongst both vautour and coneygree, he's had to work a bit to beat AS over a distance that that horse doesn't stay, he's won an RSA that absolutely fell apart and on reflection time will probably see was a poor one....and he's lazy to boot!!! I'd have thought that the last horse he'd be seen to best effect against is one that sets a strong pace and keeps going!!!

My answer to the original question is no

my view is a gold cup run at a flat out gallop is absolutely don poli territory and experience tells me generally forget about what you have just seen in this year's gold cup and look to the young horses stepping up

amazing how people can see things so different, funny old game

I think Poli looks tailor made but only when he steps up in class will it tell...wonder if willie has thought about chucking him against the big boys before the end of this season, doubt it be fun watching though.

Having backed Dom Poli I can honestly see he never would have beaten Coneygree in this years GC, although it's possible he could do next year. The GC was run in a terrific time and reliable yardsticks were hammered.

Many Clouds performance in the National adds further credence to the quality of Coneygrees efforts.

everybody says Don Poli is LAZY not slow. I agree with that, but on top of that I think he lacks the class to win a GC, especially this year. You put him in `14 renewal and I can see him thereabouts but last year and this season he'll simply be outclassed, not outstayed as he can stay the GN trip very well. I think thats the next wise step with him, just as it was with Many Clouds.

Coming up that hill on a gruelling track will play into Dom Poli's strengths.

With no Coneygree this year (who I think would win again) I think he wins it. Those who dismiss him as a plodder are way off the beaten track. He takes time to get going but he is no plodder.

Agree with that Charwell. Also from the belief that Coneygree would have helped Poli's claims. Going such a gallop for so long would only enhance Poli's ability to out stay the rest of the field

most people thought last years gold cup was looking pretty average before the race,coneygree's trainer even said the gold cup might be easier than taking on don poli