Is Simon Claisse totally deranged?

Unless the ground becomes truly unsafe to race upon (ie firm), the course should be left alone absolutely. Why do people always want to play God with these things? The soft ground horses have had all winter to mop up big races, and the fact is the Gold Cup is run in March when for once we have a couple of dry days and slightly drying ground to help the others so what do we do  - turn on the hosepipes to make it artificially 'fair'. An absolute joke.

^^ spot on!! 100% agree

animal rights appeasing >>>>> everyones heads >>>>>>> aeroplane

it wouldn't be so bad if watering actually helped...

but it doesn't, it makes false going that horses don't act on and often injure themselves

I wouldn't worry about it. If he pours a glass of water on the course, he will tell everyone it was a bucket.

..... two glasses two buckets .....

if they end up watering after the wettest winter in history then it is time to review the drainage

they spent all that money to ensure meetings are not lost in winter due to water logging but if it is going to compromise the going at the Showpiece every year they should consider reversing/slowing the rate of drainage

putting water on ground that has been saturated for weeks, then dried out in the top layer but is is still wet underneath is going to produce horrible conditions

very bad situation



1) how many meetings have been lost to waterlogging at Cheltenham in recent years?

2) Does the water table find its own level or does it always stay at the same depth below the turf despite the undulations?

3) being a hilly course, does the surface dry out to the same degree over the entire course?

4) Has the OP ever been to Cheltenham Racecourse?

On the youtube quote, which I think was filmed yesterday, Claisse said his best guess of the ground on Tuesday, would be soft, gs places.  Hours later, he changed it to GS, soft in places. There is no rain forecast. He has stated he thinks it's very unlikey he will water.

So despite the absence of any water being put on the course by nature or man, and an expected 5 days of sunshine, the ground is expected to get a bit softer. As has been stated, the water table is high. Presumably, Simon thinks that at night, when the world turns upside down, some of this water will fall back to the surface.

I agree with the OP on his fundamental point. Claise is a lunatic, and it would do us all a service if he simply wasn't allowed airtime, as he talks complete and utter **** and misleads people. I don't think he does it on purpose, he seems like a nice enough chap, in a "Tim nice but dim" kind of way. He's just a bit clueless.

Claisse is thinking of watering for the Boat Race.

water finds its own level, be it above ground or below ground.

It does not follow the contours of Cheltenham Racecourse which is a variety of hills and hollows with no level ground.

Anyone who has walked the course will see that the ground can change every furlong, dryer on the higher points and more moisture in the hollows.

Any watering that will be done will be selective and will target the dryer parts of the course only.

The OP seems totally deranged and probably housebound to boot.

The OP does some very good posts on this forum the majority of the time, but I can't agree in this instance.

It seems inevitable that the new course will have to be watered, given the excellent drainage and lack of rain forecast. Claisse is forced to do this as a failure to do so risks damaging racing's image. If he didnt water and there were fatalities, the section of the animal rights brigade that despises racing would cause an immense amount of negative publicity.

I agree that it's not ideal given the winter we've had, but I don't think Claisse has much real choice.

In answer to the question I've been to the festival several times and I can say with some degree of certainty that I bet far less often when the ground is artificially altered than I have when nature has taken it's course. That aside and being a vegetarian I take the point about the animal rights lobby but I think there is a difference watering what cannot be unsafe ground given the conditions a few inches down and watering when horse welfare is compromised by a long dry winter.

Maybe when he's finished watering he could maybe level that steep hill off a bit?? It's awfully tough for horses that don't finish off their races too well and would be much fairer if flattened out a bit imo.

The poster of this thread seems to be talking out of his a$$.
Some people really need to get a grip
Claisse just said "highly unlikely a need to water between now and Tuesday"

Thought he was absolutely spot on in that interview. Every year he gets heavy criticism on here, and every year I hear him speak, I think he makes perfect sense.

^ aye, the stick he gets is unreal.

It s Racing in general which is the problem. Giving into the general public who watch the game for a couple of hours a year

wonder how many animal rights groups were infiltrated and controlled by the cops ? 

same as the bbc and rspca with their hidden agendas ,how much of that is totally contrived .

its a fckd up world ,the general public dont give a flying ....in fact the general public do not even exist

http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=1137752&category=0

Jesus christ the mad man is actually thinking of watering Obviously horses for the hunter chase meeting cant be important has them running on quick ground doesnt matter

The ground is good-soft at the moment SJ, with a week of sunshine it really good get on the quick side by Friday. I have no problem with watering to keep it good, I have a big problem with watering to make it softer than good. As Nicky says, why shouldn't the good ground horses have a chance. Of course, Nicky has 2 good ground horses in the Gold Cup, so he probably isn't entirely unbiased. But as Judorick says, it creates patchy/false ground which is much more dangerous than racing on proper good going.

The big problem I have with Claisse is the drivel he talks/writes. He just doesn't take care. He gave a statement on Friday saying his best estimate of the ground on Tuesday was soft, GS places, and less than 12 hrs later it was officially quicker than that. He isn't that dumb, he can't be, he just isn't thinking before he speaks. But when millions of pounds are changing hands based on what he says, that is very disrespectful to his customers.

I think it's about time we had independent going reports. It wouldn't cost that much, in the grand scheme of things, to employ a guy with a van and some measuring equipment to do that and nothing else. Betfair could sponsor it even, it would probably be worth it for the PR ("official Betfair going report" would be quoted throughout the media) and the increased turnover - because a lot of us hold of betting on certain horses because we just don't trust the going reports.

Beautiful day in Cheltenham. I've just been out for a jog and it is sunny, warm and breezy.

Whatever anybody says and no matter how they try to disguise or what words they use it is about slowing them down and safety and reducing injury and fatalities.

Good ground is fine for October. Good ground is fine for November. Good ground is fine for December and fast ground is fine for April. Why then does it need to be good to soft in March?

because that's when the non racing media and the animal rights nutters get involved.

Eeternaloptimist
Eeternaloptimist 09 Mar 14 13:15 Joined: 28 Jun 10 | Topic/replies: 23,723 | Blogger: Eeternaloptimist's blog
Good ground is fine for October. Good ground is fine for November. Good ground is fine for December and fast ground is fine for April. Why then does it need to be good to soft in March?
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yeast
yeast 09 Mar 14 13:17 Joined: 09 Mar 05 | Topic/replies: 558 | Blogger: yeast's blog
because that's when the non racing media and the animal rights nutters get involved.



Both spot on. No watering ever for summer jumping round Market Rasen and Stratford it s utter bollox

No watering ever for summer jumping round Market Rasen and Stratford it s utter bollox

festivalfanatic 09 Mar 14 13:01
Beautiful day in Cheltenham. I've just been out for a jog and it is sunny, warm and breezy.

Is this your final canter before racing?

If they're shrewd the BHA will be steering Claisse to not water, thereby ensuring Fenton doesn't win the Gold Cup

What's up with you lot.Hes telling you what's happening.hes said for many yrs now that he aims to start with good to soft unless the rains make it soft or heavy but no way will it start with good going.And this is exactly the right way to do it too.

A fair number of top class hurdlers over the years have needed goog ground. Why on earth should an over enthusiastic clerk wreck the chances of this ever happening again?

You can certainly start the festival on good going, and then water to maintain the ground as good as necessary throughout the week. To deny good ground horses the chance of ever winning another champion hurdle the way that Make A Stand did so excitingly is wrong in my view.

This winter, more or less since half way through November the only horses that had a chance of winning were real mud larks. All the good ground horses have never had a chance since the Hennessy. Now the deluge has finally stopped after another "wettest winter in history" the trainers of the good ground horses are going to be snookered by a nutter with a terrible fetish for turning on the taps.

And to add to that which I totally endorse it says it on the description. Good. Not oh my god it's like a road. GOOD. In other words perfectly respectable ground for the animals which is in no way unsafe.

excellent point, its high time they changed the notation if the ground is so unwanted. Bad to Soft, Bad in places. But then what would that make firm?

Beautiful day in Cheltenham. I've just been out for a jog and it is sunny, warm and breezy.

Is this your final canter before racing?

Actually it is josef though a very slow piece of work! Gym tomorrow then slippery slop for the rest of the week......

Unless you don't want Last Instalment to run, I'm not sure why people are worried by the watering policy. No doubt genuine good ground horses deserve their chance to shine, but this has been a jump season of mostly soft/heavy ground, good ground is going to turn the form on it's head!

Rubbish

loper 09 Mar 14 14:08 Joined: 08 Oct 01 | Topic/replies: 3,028 | Blogger: loper's blog
No watering ever for summer jumping round Market Rasen and Stratford it s utter bollox

There is no problem when Stratford and Market Rasen fixtures are ran on Good to firm

I attend most Stratford meetings and they water like crazy!

Sorry mate I meant it s not unheard of for those tracks to be good to firm in the summer

A race at Market Rasen or Stratford is a little different to a race at the Festival. It is more important to have softer landing conditions when there is more potential for a horse to come down at breakneck speed.

how can he water pre racing ,worse way its good good to soft ,he will call it good to soft anyway ,surely u let them run tomorrow
then water tomorrow evening if needs be ?

There's no way he'll water for tomorrow. The speculation seems to be whether he'll water the new course ready for Thursday.

He's just been on RUK. Its good to soft all over he said "I know it might sound perverse but there is a possibility we will water"

Obviously hes had brains on good to soft

AC Stafford

It's the inconsistency which is the point. The big handicap chases at the November and December meetings are often run at breakneck pace. There seems to be no problem with good ground then.

Watering at Cheltenham 'unlikely'
Clerk Simon Claisse said: "We will do whatever we can to avoid racing on good to firm, but my gut feeling is that we will get through the week without watering. I don't want to say we won't, but I think it's unlikely."

Great. So now we have three dead horses, one a potential superstar, and a high-profile jockey with a serious injury.....all caused by SPEED. Of course speed is a given at the Festival, but its worst effects can be greatly reduced by watering. A bit late in the day regrettably, but thank goodness Claisse is turning on the taps on the New Course tonight, and hopefully again tomorrow night.

Let's have GENUINELY good-to-soft ground please.

LOL Our Conor's death had nothing to do with the ground never heard so much nonsense.

Oh really?? Well (LOL) he wouldn't have gone off at that stupid pace on proper good-to-soft and probably wouldn't have made his fatal error. Speed kills, hasn't anyone told you that? LOL

They went off a fast pace in last years CH too, tbf. Though we get the point.

Yeah there is never any bad falls on heavy ground or fatalities. The horses never come home exhasuted. It s not proper good to soft either if it is watered you get false patchy ground at times. Claisse actually described the ground as on the soft side of good and riding a bit tacky and you wanted watering?

Totally agree with sj here.

Watering=safer is an argument that is laudable but ill thought through and one dimensional and it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Yes but you only have to look at the times of the first few races on Day 1 to see that Claisse underestimated the extent to which the ground had dried out. Thought he might have watered a bit on Tuesday night.....would have helped imo.

michael o clearly pocket talking. Apart from the 2 milers which are being timed from a different point to how they have always been is the ground suggesting fast? Of course not. The races are being run outside of standard. So much for being run at break neck speed. If Claisse is indeed watering we need to know how much and it is back to square one in terms of betting. Let the mugs take their chance. They'll be getting no contributions towards the levy from me tomorrow and possibly Friday if he is at it again tomorrow night. What a shambles.

yep, track records on Day 1, so certainly can be argued Claisse has underestimated the state of the ground.

wasn't aware of that Ee. cheers.

michael o

No disrespect but you haven't a clue or you wouldn't have made that stupid comment. Traditionally the time of the race began when the flag went down. Now it is several seconds later when the first horse passes the start line. Have a look at the times of the longe events where this isn't as much of an issue both yesterday and today. So many races run outside standard. Good safe ground with just enough juice in it. Now prepare for the lottery.

marychain....laudable but ill-thought-through? Bit like saying reducing the no-limit speed on German Autobhans would have no effect on the carnage caused by high-speed pile-ups.

ANYTHING to slow down the races at the Festival when the weather is as it is right now, has to be a positive as far as I'm concerned.

You keep saying slow the races down. Instead of doing that might I suggest you actually look at the times of the races?

what are you on about weather ffs its good to soft

EEternaloptimist, I know all about the new timing procedures, so don't patronise me and call me stupid. The times were still extraordinarly fast, given the official going description.

It's not the time of the long events that concern me. They didn't produce the fatalities, yesterday or today.

And another thing Ee, I wasn't pocket-talking because I don't bet or rarely do. But I do have a runner on Friday and want to see him back home safe. That's why I'm delighted that Cheltenham is now watering.

The going on the first day was good to soft what do you want mate? When are decent ground horses going to get their ground?

I'm sorry but you do leave yourself open to being patronised by your comments. Despite the new timing procedure which suggest faster races than they actually are more of todays races were run slower than even the standard times based on the old timing than the number of races which were quicker. That's standard times don't forget. In championship races. So please no more emotive claptrap. If you don't want patronising I suggest you deal in facts.

I wonder if you're horse is a good ground horse or likes a bit of cut? We'll see f you're pocket talking or not. Let us know what it is.

And another thing which is not good enough. If they are watering tonight then that's just another example of Claisse and his tricks. On Tuesday he said he didn't envisage the need to water throughout the meeting. Now if correct he's at it halfway through. Gross incompetence on ground which is no faster than good ground.

If the going is the deciding factor for the number of fatalities how do you explain the fact that in 2014 we have had 3 in two days on good to soft yet in 2011 there was only 1 fatality despite good ground and at times good to firm?

He has a round action, so an expert like Eet will know exactly what that means. I won't be backing him as I rarely bet even when one of mine are running. All I want is that Mr. Claisse provides ground which will see him come back safely on Friday. Then we have one hell of a novice chaser for next season.

Which means you're pocket talking.

Fair enough. If I had a good one and thought he could make up into a decent sort I'd look after him but the option is there to pull him out if it doesn't suit. Plenty of trainers have spent three months doing just that on the desperate ground we've had with good ground horses. Give someone else a chance if that is what the fates decree. Don't get me wrong. I want safe ground. I don't want good to firm. It isn't.

WATER was being applied to the track at Cheltenham on Wednesday night to ensure conditions do not become too quick over the final two days of the festival.

After Wednesday's last race clerk of the course Simon Claisse checked the state of the New course, on which racing takes place on Thursday and Friday, and then said: "We will be selectively watering to maintain current conditions, which are good, good to soft in places.
"It'll take until one in the morning. We'll put between 3mm and 5mm on the ground that's quicker, which is around two-thirds of the New course."

No further watering is planned for Thursday night and Claisse said: "The intention is that this should last for two days. We have done it three times before on the Wednesday night of the festival. It's due to be dry and sunny tomorrow and getting warmer, more like 14-15C."

will you be reducing the tax on Ryanair flights if LI wins the GC  Michael_o and perhaps improving customer service.....

I thought I heard that Istabraqs track record was broken twice on Tuesday,that if its correct says that it weren't good to soft.
It will have dried out more and more since then lads.
Claisse has been doing this job a long time now and I have confidence in his ability to provide good and safe jumping ground,so I say let him do what his experience and knowledge of the course tells him to do.
I don't know if the sad event of Tuesday is cos of the ground - fatalities unfortunately do occur in this game on all types of going - but I do know Claisse has always maintained he will try and have safe ground,and will continue to try and produce that.

so they water and then the fog comes in to trap it in

budd, the reason course records were broken is because they've changed the way they measure the times. Going on the traditional method of timing the races they have been slower than standard times. Not Championship race standard. Slower than standard.

Going by that the ground is on the soft side of good.

marychain is spot on,
Racing post standards are for what a 135 horse can do carrying 12 stone on good ground. so a champion hurlder rated around 165 and carrying 11st 7lb would be expected to go considerably quicker than standard.

Case closed I think and all the logic and facts are coming from those who have just posted them. The interesting question is how much the fog will seal that artificial moisture in. If you're an owner with a good top of the ground horse you might be dragging Claisse up to the top of the grandstand and flinging him off.

Is there a case for bringing the meeting forward to say the end of Feb?

Well the times of the first two races today suggest he's put plenty of water on perfectly safe ground so I'll be keeping my money in my pocket. Claisse is like one of those football refs who want to get in on the action.

what were the times?

He has not maintained the ground at all, he has altered it.
Any horse that wanted good ground or faster has had their chances compromised.

Dunno what happening here. It appears that he's put fog on the course.

Jockeys are coming in with mud on face and silks. Any horse that wanted good ground has basically been snookered

Judo

In answer to your question the first race just shy of 7 seconds slower than standard and the Pertemps 11 seconds This is based on the new timings so add a few seconds. Not that much slower than last year.

Apologies. I mean the ground isn't riding that much faster.

ta

Of course then the heavens opened last year and the gold cup was a war of attrition. No sing of that yet. Perhaps instead of 2am Claisse will have the staff out all night tonight.

eeternal it was a disgrace what he did last night

yeah he got unlucky with the fog but he put too much on no matter what the weather

Like I said when more of your races are slower than standard than faster you've got to be a head case to then be throwing water onto a course which has been saturated for most of the year. He may have got away with it but I for one don't think that is good course management and I don't think connections of some of the proper good ground types which have gone down narrowly will be too impressed.

Shouldn't you change your name... to Eeternalpessimist

better not water tonight the mad coont

Races run at a slower pace, fewer fallers, and above all no injuries to either horse or rider. Case for watering proved as far as I'm concerned.

half the field failed to finish in the Kim Muir ^^

michael

Going by your logic the clerk should be aiming for heavy so everybody can have a nice soft landing when they come down. Look at the times man. Championship races run at championship paces and every single race well outside even the standard time. Message to owners with good ground horses. Leave em in the box.

FFS, are you STILL whining you boring ****er...get over it  ^^^^^^^

I wouldn't have expressed it quite as graphically as that super7, but I agree with your sentiment. If Days 1 and 2 had been run on today's ground, we'd still have OC and Dunguib imo. And poor Bryan Cooper would probably not be facing 6 months on the sidelines. Fast ground at the Festival spells danger for every horse and rider, but quite a few people on here couldn't care less apparently.

Bullshiit. Where was the fast ground on days 1 and 2? I've given you the facts. Don't you like them? You care when it suits. I'll bet a pound to a pinch of shiit that you don't get your banners out at summer jumps meetings. Of course I want horses to return safe but anybody who suggests that OC or any other horse died because of fast ground is simply lying.

Oh dear, I seem to have got under your skin. Descending into abuse is what happens when bullies lose the argument. Can't you get it into your head that this is the Cheltenham Festival, where ground described as good, or first-day good-to-soft becomes the equivalent of good-to-firm when jockeys eye up the tantalising prize-money on offer? And by Christ the times were quick, even allowing for the adjustment. What was needed was a bit of water to curb their enthusiasm. It worked very well today......two days too late alas.

I didn't descend into abuse. Super hans did and then you started clapping like a seal. Then I gave you some back. However, there are two points which you are failing to address and with respect that is the cowards way out. So let me put them to you straight and see what you have to say:

1 Are you aware that on the first day that more races were run outside the standard than under?

2 Are you aware that a new way of timing races is in place this year which makes race times several seconds quicker than previously?

If it was any kind of good let alone good to firm this would have been reflected in the times. It wasn't. The first two races were fast but that was in large part due to the fact that they were run over the minimum distance and so the differential in the start times year to year was exaggerated.

I look forward to your response. By the way just so as you know there are no hard feelings and you haven't got under your skin I hope your own horse returned sound.

Just to put the record straight, michael_o (and obviously Super7 too) you are entirely wrong and also missing the point. This trigger happy watering we've seen recently is a real kick in the teeth for any real racing fans out there as it represents a massive step towards some artificial, sterilised yearly moneyspinner with the sole purpose of keeping the right (wrong?) people satisfied. Dont give me the safety tripe either as horses get injured as a result of many different factors. I remember there was lovely soft for the 1989 Gold Cup, that slowed them down nicely.....

I wonder if the doped up horse will run.....

I was at the 2006 Derby too and witnessed the horrible scenes with Horatio Nelson. Not a fence in sight.....

I would say exhaustion and trainer stupidity just as dangerous as speed.

Having had an enjoyable week in the Cotswolds, I must express my appreciation for the efforts of Mr Claisse and his ground staff under difficult circumstances.

On hearing the time of the first race on day one, I walked part of the course and was astonished to see what little impact the runners had had on the surface, in places barely making a print. At this point I thought, if this is the Old Course at 2.30pm on Tuesday, what will the New Course be riding like at 5.15pm on Friday?

The weather was glorious and as I walked back up the finishing hill Peter Hobbs and Richard Linley (The BHA Inspectors of Courses) walked past going down the hill. Later in the afternoon, a well known racing journalist of my acquaintance informed me that Linley had said that Claisse would HAVE to water the New Course on Wednesday evening as it was drying out at an alarming rate.

The keyboard warriors on here seem to think that Claisse is a loose (water) cannon who does what he likes.

I can safely inform them that he does not do anything without prior consultation with various parties.

As I said at the beginning. Well done Mr Claisse.