Cheltenham Festival
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The Hurricane Fly camp knew there was an opportunity to put their horse on a false pedastal. Darlan never made it, Rock on Ruby was wearing a balaclava for the first time, Grandouet fell and the ground was dead. As for Zarkandar, well he finished the exact same distance behind the winner as he did last year, but nobody would listen. I just didn't enjoy the race, as the ground didn't have enough kick in it. I actually found the race to be a bit of an anti-climax. You know what the Irish are like though, they can't see past horses that run over there, and for ages we will be hearing them rattle about about Hurricane Flys greatness, but i doubt he's as great as some people will be making out.
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13 winners for the Irish. Yeah we bang on about our horses because they're quality. You stupid English pr1ck.
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graeme is scottish
leave us english out of it |
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I just laugh at all the drivel he posts every time I pop on here. Always has a new thread full of ****. Always looks like a complete prat. Always been anti Irish which makes me laugh given the festivals we've had in 2011 and this year.  So just loving this thread the most  |
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Conor, stop acting like the angry little Oirish hobbit that you are, and be a man. Anything i post is usually what i believe at the time of posting. Hurricane Fly couldn't have got things his way any better if he was the only horse in the race. Darlan would have pissed up, and we all know this. Come Punchestown, we will see what happens if Hurricane Fly doesn't hide from Grandouet. The CountryWide Flame/ROR form was taking shape, and we all saw what Darlan was about to do to them.
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darlan finished 2nd in a pish poor supreme his other chelt appearance wasnt great, just dont think it was his course great horse though (RIP)
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I can't say I've ever read any of Graeme's posts and thought he was a novice or a shít-stirrer, so I figure he's expressing his real opinion - I'm shocked by this and think it's ludicrous how such a superstar can be criticised
 Since Sea Pigeon retired in 1981, I think Hurricane Fly is without doubt one of the greatest of the last 32 seasons, and in my view, he's pushing Istabraq! How does that horse fit into your ratings Graeme? Is there another hurdler you can name in that period that has done it season after season, having very rarely disappointed? |
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I think the truth is somewhere in between. HF is being hyped as something special, he is mega consistent and deserves credit for that but he is not ultra brilliant. Darlan, we will never know about - 4 great runs on flat tracks but 2 of them ending with falls, even if he'd been as good at Cheltenham (the form book says not) then would his jumping have held up? Would have been a more interesting and conclusive race if Grandouet had stood up but he will get his chance at Punchestown and we will see then.
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The thought that any horse would hide from Grandouet just had me choking on my lunch with laughter.
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Navel - i take performances on an individual basis, and leave posthumous comparisons to people who have been watching racing longer than me,and who know more than me. I know about Istabraq though, and i doubt Hurricane Fly would have got near him with his recent performance. I looked at Rock On Ruby battering up the hill in 2012, then checked out the 2013 race and i think 2013 left more questions than answers. I'm not fully convinced that HF would have beaten Grandouet. If that ground wasn't dead, then HF wouldn't have been able to come off and on the bridle. Something is irking me about that ground. I think absolutely everything suited HF, and if the ground was genuinely good he may not have won.
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"The thought that any horse would hide from Grandouet just had me choking on my lunch with laughter. "
They have him where they want him in terms of status, as a double Champion hurdle winner. If the ground was good, they would consider going into hiding. We will see what happens. If the ground is good the horse might just procure a wee slight niggle. |
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Graeme - "I think absolutely everything suited HF" - I disagree strongly as Hurricane Fly (despite winning two Champion Hurdles and a place from three runs at Cheltenham) has never looked happy on the track to my eye, and comparing that to the quality hurdler I've seen in Ireland over many years, he's never looked anywhere near his best when coming over here.
In many of his superb Irish victories, he has looked every bit as good as Istabraq, and arguably beaten better opposition in the same grand style, though that horse's Cheltenham wins probably mean he just shades a direct comparison - I think the combination of the course configuration, faster ground & pace than he's used to in his Grade One strolls at home, slightly find him out, but he's got plenty of guts...which is especially noteworthy as he's a son of Montjeu! I'd really like to see him take his chance at Aintree one year (he'd relish the trip) but connections seem to be intent on rattling up as many Grade Ones as possible, and with a longer break to Punchestown (which is invariably a penalty kick) it's somewhat understandable they keep him at home. |
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The Fly Good/Good To Firm 11113
The Fly Soft/Heavy 12111311111111 Not sure the ground makes much difference to him myself,The fact that he runs on worse ground is plainly due to where he is based imo Grandouet Good/Good To Soft 52113BDf12 Grandouet Soft/Heavy 2f Grandouet is a horse who has his fans but i fail to see why,A beating of Overturn when getting weight and a thumping of that great hurdler Kumbeshwar at Punchestown is the best winning form he has in the book,Clumsy hurdler who has to win on the bridle(Whenever he has to go a yard faster than he is comfortable with he goes to pieces) Ground would not bring these closer together and for me it would be a total mismatch even given that The Fly had a harder race by virtue of actually finishing just he doesn't get beat in Ireland(November 2009 his one and only defeat on home soil) |
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Fair enough Navel, but i'm one of these folk who uses Cheltenham festival form as a guide to a horses talent. I'm not really one for taking horses from different years and making comparison, but as it has been brought up i think Istabraq would have good HF off the bridle from a good bit out, then would have finished him off. Hurricane wouldn't have been able to live with the quickening of pace in good running ground. I don't know what would have happened in ireland. I do think everything suited HF in the CH just there, in terms of everything he needed to go right just about did. Darlan passed away, ROR used first time blinkers, Grandouet fell and a bit of deadness in the ground took the kick out of the ground that could have had him beat seen as he was one of the first off the bridle. I don't want to take too much away from the Fly, but lets see what happens if there is good ground at Punchestown. I'm sticking with Grandouet, as for all his faults he will be very capable of winnign if he gets it right, and his price ought to be reasonable enough to back. Maybe 7/2.
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I can't see just the ONE variable (faster ground) getting him beaten at Punchestown, as he can still win at Cheltenham with (in my view) THREE things against him!
I have to be honest and I didn't know what to expect from Hurricane Fly in the Champion Hurdle as I had a sneaky suspicion that in last year's defeat he 'remembered' going through the pain barrier in winning it the previous year - there didn't seem to be any valid excuses at all, and I thought it was possible that the Montjeu 'thinking' traits eventually caught up with him as an 8yo last season. He's put that 'semi-theory' to bed somewhat, but it's not completely dispelled...next year he'll be 10 and has three new youngsters to fend off in Our Conor, The New One & My Tent Or Yours, as well as the usual suspects - I think that'll prove to be a bridge too far, but if he can do so, he'll be worthy of inclusion with the greats of the 70's! PS - we all rate Festival form as the benchmark but that shouldn't detract from superb performances elsewhere...great horses overcome adversity (like Frankel in the Champion Stakes) and looking further back, how can we say Wayward Lad wasn't the same horse at Cheltenham, when it was only race fitness (and divine intervention) than prevented him from beating Dawn Run? I've never seen a jockey more gutted than Graham Bradley when he was interviewed after that race  |
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I think HF v Istabraq would be a mismatch. Istabraq ran in the weakest ever era for hurdling and no-one can tell me a single top class two miler he ever beat because there wasn't one. Not his fault, of course, but his Champion Hurdles were indescribably poor. Very few defeats, of course, but those he did suffer, at the hands of Pridwell and Limestone Lad (would have been by Moscow Flyer, except for that one falling at the last, and while he was a top chaser, he was never a top hurdler)show a fallibility that HF hasn't. One of his greatest assets is that, while in his early days, he used to win hanging off the bridle, nowadays he has shown he can battle with the best of them as well.
It escaped many, but his achievements were validated yet again by Solwhit sauntering home in the Stayers'. "He's only beaten up Solwhit again" used to be the cry but that one doesn't get beaten by too many himself. Having watched all the top hurdlers since 1970, my view is that HF would have been a match for any hurdler in Ireland but, likeNavel-Gazer, he doesn't seem to be at his best at Cheltenham. And yet he was still good enough to beat last year's winner, last year's Triumph winner, and the year before's Triumph winner (with another previous champion further behind)with some ease, despite looking in trouble at half way and hitting the front "2 furlongs too soon" (Ruby Walsh). A great, great horse, and what a prospect next season will be if he can stay on top of his game. |
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ive seen them all Istabraq was a great horse Hurricane a bloody good one.
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walos
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I thought it was a very good race. I'd backed Hurricane Fly despite being let down by him last year, as I thought his form was consistently at a higher level than the other runners in the race.
At the top of the hill, and on the descent, I thought I'd done my money again, but then The Fly came through the field to win. It was exciting, and of course special to me for having backed the winner again. Excellent horse, as his record suggests. |
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Graeme the racist. Rangers fan NAP.
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Strikes me as more of a Celtic fan definitely. Nap.
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People seem to forget about Fly.
He is only the 3rd 9yo to win the race in the last 30 years and only 2nd to ever regain his crown. To try crab the horse when he won despite the age and stats is comical. His glory years like most 2 mile hurdlers is in the 6-7yo range. He was injured as a 6yo when nobody will argue he is a better horse than Binocular. Anyway, this is all after the fact debate. The debate that mattered was the one prior to the race. The horse is in the record books now and could end the season with a record breaking 17 grade 1's from 20 races. All the negativity that has eminated from mostly English media, the people queuing up to knock the horse. Oh how sweet it is to have him shove it all in your faces AGAIN. Racists like Graeme mocking Irish for backing our SUPERIOR horses. Oh does it get any sweeter? No, it doesn't. Hurricane Fly my boy. Job done. Report home to base. |
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Racing Post ratings would disagree he was better than Binocular at 6, Bino was rated 6lbs ahead of him at that stage, and still 1lb ahead after HF's first CH win. So not that clear cut at all. Bino was brilliant at his best, HF has just been more consistent. I'd concur with that.
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not sure anyone is knocking him.
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Fair enough JOCI, but i'd really like to see ROR and Grandouet go over there and have a go. Conor can you stop following me about, or i will start on you back. You may act and talk like a hard man darts player with 10 rings and 20 bracelets, but i just looked at the video of you in Vietnam, and you are built like a rake and look like a bread and bean munching student. Now piss off twiggy before i wake up and start aiming at you.
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You're right Howdi, nobody was. However, as soon as i mention anything remotely Irish, Conor(CVByrne) gets excited, car alarm sensors go off in his head and his ears start to flap around. The point was questioning the quality of the race, and whether or not HF would have won if it was run differently and on a better surface.
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lads move on its aintree soon and summer
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thieveslikeus 23 Mar 13 16:58
Racing Post ratings would disagree he was better than Binocular at 6, Bino was rated 6lbs ahead of him at that stage, and still 1lb ahead after HF's first CH win. So not that clear cut at all. Bino was brilliant at his best, HF has just been more consistent. I'd concur with that. No offence but who gives 2 sh*ts about Racing Post Ratings? It's simply a persons opinion at that time. People had the belief Irish form was bad back then. Look at Fly and Solwhit now. Then Thousand Stars short defeats in 2 Aintree Hurdles. |
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Is there REALLY a 'racist' angle where it comes to top-class horses?
 I don't give a shít and although I'm English, I like to see the BEST horses prevail, and I'd have thought any racing aficionado would do likewise...I was roaring on Black Caviar at Ascot  |
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You said NOBODY would argue Bino was better - the RPRs say he was, I say he was, so that is two people who would argue it. I was merely correcting your obvious error driven by your usual arrogance CV Byrne.
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There's no such angle. I back loads of Irish horses, and get called an anti Irish racist on the same day i got my Bobby Sands book from Amazon.
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I mean Binocular has been totally out classed by Fly all the times he's met him. So it's not hard to believe had Fly not had problems missing 2 festivals he would have won that Champion hurdle. Especially as he's thumped Go Native all the time and he was fav.
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As 6yos, the official handicapper also had Bino 6lbs clear, Stop Watch 10pts clear and Raceform time figures were faster too. So that's 5 people who would argue Bino was the better horse at 6. Is just as easy to argue that if the 172 rated Bino hadn't missed the 2011 CH that he would have won that one too as HF only beat the pretty average Peddlers Cross that day. Bino has of course peaked earlier and gone backwards since, not surprising with a French bred?
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Graeme83 23 Mar 13 17:01 Joined: 21 Sep 07
Conor can you stop following me about, or i will start on you back. You may act and talk like a hard man darts player with 10 rings and 20 bracelets, but i just looked at the video of you in Vietnam, and you are built like a rake and look like a bread and bean munching student. Now piss off twiggy before i wake up and start aiming at you. Act like a hard man?? You called me a Hobbit first of all. Now some bean munching student. WTF you on about?? You really are some ingrate. I'm just slating your garbage after the fact opinions. You re clearly a vile piece of work & act like it on here. Anti Irish Racist too.I have strong opinions, I post em sometimes on here and they need to be wrapped in strong words as this is betfair fourms. Unmoderated. I do have the advantage of being right though with my strong opinions. You unfortunately don't have that luxury. |
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Why do you keep talking about ratings? If ratings mean who wins every grade 1 what's the point in having them?
He only ever got a proper rating when he won the Champion Hurdle. |
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Anyway it's all speculation about woulda won what. Just opinions. We'll never know.
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I'm saying that the opinions of the ratings were that he was behind Bino at 6 and that the official handicapper, RPRs, Stop watch, Raceform Times and me - i.e. 5 different people - still had him behind Bino after winning the CH in March 2011, a race Bino missed. Of course we'll never know, it is you who claimed we did...
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christ al'mighty
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I'm just saying that it's utterly daft to quote other peoples opinions to prove a point. RPRs, times etc.. is all from that time. Not to mention the fact that Hurricane Fly was injured, as in couldn't race to ever get a bloomin rating. Never made a Cheltenham festival to get a good RPR rating.
Even so all these ratings were created prior to the information we have now which is Fly beating Binocular 4 times, 3 times by miles. So armed with the information we have now it's easier to surmise Fly would have had a very strong chance of winning in 2010 had he been fit. My god I hate these forums. |