Cheltenham Festival
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
i like this beast but not sure if hes ch class...ran great race in supreme , fluffed last , and followed up with good win at Aintree admitedly beating little...what u lads think...thanks
Show More
Might be. Put in some good performances last season and seemed to get better with racing. It probably doesn't help you but I'd want to see him run once or twice this year. The vibes from the yard are he might be CH quality but they aren't sure.
ithink he deffo improved with every run and i remember AP liking him after Aintree win....Henderson has some hand in it this year
Greatwood promises to be a good un this year been pi55 poor last couple of years.
the race at Newbury could turn out to be key, where he fell when looking to be going best
must be closely matched with Zarkandar on that form
looks a tough division though
must be closely matched with Zarkandar on that form
looks a tough division though
Tough in the sense they all look about the same and there is no outstanding horse. But if one improves ahead of the pack.....
yes indeed stront! all closely matched at this stage... who will step forward if any? I love Simonsig myself but who knows
He's also the one for me if he stays hurdling. Otherwise Grandouet perhaps, or Rock on Ruby again. I realise I've just picked 3 of the top 4 in the markeet which isn't very imaginative...!
It's certainly interesting that PFN is keeping Zarkander at the Champion Hurdle distance
BBF-Nicholls after losing ROR doesnt have much else so possibly why Zarkander staying at 2m.
i think the champion hurdle is at the mercy of simonsig...if he goes the chase route think i will take a chance with Darlan..gl all
I think Simon would be Istabraq to this average generation. I suspect fences await, however.
RC do you not think given Spirit Son is gone they will reroute Simonsig?
Stil has Grandouet, Darlan, Binocular and possible Oscar Whisky, hes nt short on CH contenters
Hi Resner, sorry for late reply.
I suspect that could be a temptation, i really do. The vibes all along have suggested fences next yr, but in what appears to be a weak division, without their (IMO) Champion ace (Sprit Son) you could see how it might cross their minds to take Simon down the Champion route. I understand schooling will determine their plan, suggesting fences are the preference (why school if hurdles are the plan?).
I think they thought Spirit Son was their big hope but, in his absence and given how good Simonsig appears, you could understand if they became tempted. IMO Simonsig would walk the Champion against the current obvious bunch. No disrespect to the established contenders, or last yrs 2 miler novices, but IMO Simonsig is miles and miles better. After the Neptune, FWIW, the jock said on home work (which i know is not everything) Simonsig makes Riverside Theatre and Finians Rainbow feel like 4 milers.
I would say if Simonsig does go over fences, the yard still have a good hand. If Rock on Ruby beating Overturn by 3.5L is the standard, they know what they have to beat and I think they would think they had an outstanding chance with Oscar Whisky, Binocular (with a better ride) and Grandouet. We'll see whether Darlan can reach that level and I suspect a back to his best Hurricane Fly has another throw of the dice, amongst others.
I suspect that could be a temptation, i really do. The vibes all along have suggested fences next yr, but in what appears to be a weak division, without their (IMO) Champion ace (Sprit Son) you could see how it might cross their minds to take Simon down the Champion route. I understand schooling will determine their plan, suggesting fences are the preference (why school if hurdles are the plan?).
I think they thought Spirit Son was their big hope but, in his absence and given how good Simonsig appears, you could understand if they became tempted. IMO Simonsig would walk the Champion against the current obvious bunch. No disrespect to the established contenders, or last yrs 2 miler novices, but IMO Simonsig is miles and miles better. After the Neptune, FWIW, the jock said on home work (which i know is not everything) Simonsig makes Riverside Theatre and Finians Rainbow feel like 4 milers.
I would say if Simonsig does go over fences, the yard still have a good hand. If Rock on Ruby beating Overturn by 3.5L is the standard, they know what they have to beat and I think they would think they had an outstanding chance with Oscar Whisky, Binocular (with a better ride) and Grandouet. We'll see whether Darlan can reach that level and I suspect a back to his best Hurricane Fly has another throw of the dice, amongst others.
Btw, I do not take Gerreghty's comments literally, but he was making a point.
RC, I certainly think that after the Neptune & Aintree they had every intention of aiming for fences and the Arkle, however something seems to have changed their minds. Whether that's the injury to Spirit Son, the horse not taking to fences or the fact there is no outstanding challenger in this years CH who knows?
I really do think and the betting is starting to suggest that the CH is the likely target now
I really do think and the betting is starting to suggest that the CH is the likely target now
Looks that way Resner, I agree. I am not sure he has schooled yet though tbh.
Sorry, didn't mean to suggest he hadn't taken to fences, I have no idea whether he has schooled or not. Was just considering what may have changed their minds seemingly.
I would think Darlan will be heading for the Champion Hurdle ok but it's surely a secondary target for him? Nicky is a staunch supporter of old Schweppes Gold Trophy namely the Betfair Hurdle at Newbury and while JP very seldom bets these days the temptation of going for a touch Ryan Price style will surely prove too strong. I reckon it will be steady away with Darlan as it was with Get me Out Of Here but come the day he'll be cherry ripe and most likely win the Betfair.
He's good string to have in Henderson's bow but you'd have to have him ranked 3rd or even 4th on the pecking list if you believe Simonsig will go that route. Some questioned Dalrlan's resolution off the bridle but he knocked that on the head in the Supreme which made the Neptune look like a Sedgefield seller. He would still have to improve out of all recognition to win a champion hurdle if he has it's the best kept secret since the JFK turkey shoot.
Hoe won well at Aintree but you don't need a vivid imagination to know what Grandouet would do to Capatain Conan should they meet. You'd need binoculars to find him.
Good horse but can't see him winning a Champion Hurdler. If you watch the Supreme while he ran on well AP was already chasing after him before the 3rd last. Get into a situation like that in a Champion Hurdle and the chances are you're not going to finish in the first 4. I honestly don't think he'll be good enough and the Betfair (a Handicap )looks the best bet for him.
He's good string to have in Henderson's bow but you'd have to have him ranked 3rd or even 4th on the pecking list if you believe Simonsig will go that route. Some questioned Dalrlan's resolution off the bridle but he knocked that on the head in the Supreme which made the Neptune look like a Sedgefield seller. He would still have to improve out of all recognition to win a champion hurdle if he has it's the best kept secret since the JFK turkey shoot.
Hoe won well at Aintree but you don't need a vivid imagination to know what Grandouet would do to Capatain Conan should they meet. You'd need binoculars to find him.
Good horse but can't see him winning a Champion Hurdler. If you watch the Supreme while he ran on well AP was already chasing after him before the 3rd last. Get into a situation like that in a Champion Hurdle and the chances are you're not going to finish in the first 4. I honestly don't think he'll be good enough and the Betfair (a Handicap )looks the best bet for him.
I can. It's preposterous to say the Neptune looked like a seller. The Supreme was the race they all finished in a heap, idicating the form may not be much good. The Neptune was the one with at least two eye catchers and possible stars. I'd also add that novices are supposed to improve when they go in to open company - often by quite a lot - and it's reasonable to expect that some will.
RP 17/9/2012
Darlan is likely to begin his season at Cheltenham in what, until now, has been known as the Greatwood.
Henderson said: "He came out just about the best of the two mile novice hurdle brigade and you have to think he would have gone close to winning the Betfair Hurdle at Newbury on the evidence of his fine second at the festival and win at Aintree. He looks every inch a chaser in the making, but the intention is to remain over hurdles this season to see if he's a contender for the Champion. I believe he is."
A plan has yet to be decided as to whether Cheltenham Festival winner Simonsig will switch to fences.
"It's a difficult one to call," said the trainer. "It will come down to the schooling ground in a few weeks to answer the question. It was Barry's [Geraghty's] decision to go for the longer novice race at the festival, but I think the outcome would have been the same had he run in the Supreme. He proved at Cheltenham that he does have the stamina, but that does include an abundance of speed. Accordingly, he'll come back to two miles this season, no matter whether as a challenger for the Champion Hurdle or A rk le."
Darlan is likely to begin his season at Cheltenham in what, until now, has been known as the Greatwood.
Henderson said: "He came out just about the best of the two mile novice hurdle brigade and you have to think he would have gone close to winning the Betfair Hurdle at Newbury on the evidence of his fine second at the festival and win at Aintree. He looks every inch a chaser in the making, but the intention is to remain over hurdles this season to see if he's a contender for the Champion. I believe he is."
A plan has yet to be decided as to whether Cheltenham Festival winner Simonsig will switch to fences.
"It's a difficult one to call," said the trainer. "It will come down to the schooling ground in a few weeks to answer the question. It was Barry's [Geraghty's] decision to go for the longer novice race at the festival, but I think the outcome would have been the same had he run in the Supreme. He proved at Cheltenham that he does have the stamina, but that does include an abundance of speed. Accordingly, he'll come back to two miles this season, no matter whether as a challenger for the Champion Hurdle or A rk le."
THE story for me this season is how Henderson is going to place his horses. He's got so much talent it's going to be exceptionally difficult to be fair to all the horses and owners and get the most out of them all. It's also going to be a critical betting question for all the big AP races. Anyone who can crack this puzzle is in for a big season.
Strontium I don't get your way of thinking. On one hand you are saying you think Darlan might be good enough to win the Champion Hurdle on the other hand you are saying they all finished in a heap in the Supreme which would indicate the form may not be any good.
You have a very strong opinion for someone who doesn't seem to be able to make up his mind.
I agree it is possible that we saw a future star in the Neptune. Simonsig could be anything but the actual form isn't worth an awful lot.
The race reminds me of the people who were fooled by Grand Crus when he won the Cleeve Hurdle by 10 lengths. People chose to ignore the fact he has only beaten Knockara Beau who is better suited to 4 mile chasing round Carlisle on heavy ground, His rating went through the roof and he was cut to as low as 2/1 with the majors to beat Big Bucks.
On the day he ran a good race to finish 2nd but Big Bucks laughed at this would be world beater.
People don't seem to realize there's a huge difference between running in a Champion Hurdle and winning a novice event at the Festival.
Menorah was another horse who was touted by more than a few as the next Champion Hurdle winner yet Jonjo was adamant that Ge Me Out Of Here who all but beat Menorah in the Supreme wasn't even good enough to run in a Champion Hurdle let alone win one.
Many trainers and owners tend to get carried away with their best horses but Nicky knows better than most and that is why he won't be rushed into making a decision.
However it is perfectly clear he will go chasing if he schools really well. There would be no sense in going near a fence if that was not Nicky's first choice.
Don't be so sure he'll win the Arkle either if he does go chasing. Donald McCain's Overturn was good enough to run in a Champion Hurdle and finish 2nd looks to be heading that way and over 2 miles on good ground he's the one they all have to beat if he jumps. IMO Catching Overturn over hurdle was never easy but fast horses like Binocular and Grandouet had the gears to do so. Catching a front running classy animal like Overturn round Cheltenham over fences where on mistake can cost you everything in races like the Arkle could be damn near impossible.........which unfortunately I never thought of until after I backed Simonsig
That 14/1 on Overturn could turn out to be the best value in the race by along way especially if Simonsig does stay hurdling.
You have a very strong opinion for someone who doesn't seem to be able to make up his mind.
I agree it is possible that we saw a future star in the Neptune. Simonsig could be anything but the actual form isn't worth an awful lot.
The race reminds me of the people who were fooled by Grand Crus when he won the Cleeve Hurdle by 10 lengths. People chose to ignore the fact he has only beaten Knockara Beau who is better suited to 4 mile chasing round Carlisle on heavy ground, His rating went through the roof and he was cut to as low as 2/1 with the majors to beat Big Bucks.
On the day he ran a good race to finish 2nd but Big Bucks laughed at this would be world beater.
People don't seem to realize there's a huge difference between running in a Champion Hurdle and winning a novice event at the Festival.
Menorah was another horse who was touted by more than a few as the next Champion Hurdle winner yet Jonjo was adamant that Ge Me Out Of Here who all but beat Menorah in the Supreme wasn't even good enough to run in a Champion Hurdle let alone win one.
Many trainers and owners tend to get carried away with their best horses but Nicky knows better than most and that is why he won't be rushed into making a decision.
However it is perfectly clear he will go chasing if he schools really well. There would be no sense in going near a fence if that was not Nicky's first choice.
Don't be so sure he'll win the Arkle either if he does go chasing. Donald McCain's Overturn was good enough to run in a Champion Hurdle and finish 2nd looks to be heading that way and over 2 miles on good ground he's the one they all have to beat if he jumps. IMO Catching Overturn over hurdle was never easy but fast horses like Binocular and Grandouet had the gears to do so. Catching a front running classy animal like Overturn round Cheltenham over fences where on mistake can cost you everything in races like the Arkle could be damn near impossible.........which unfortunately I never thought of until after I backed Simonsig
That 14/1 on Overturn could turn out to be the best value in the race by along way especially if Simonsig does stay hurdling.
Oscar Whiskey hugely overpriced on here, if returning to 2 miles for Champion Hurdle, as trainer stated wont be taking on Big Bucks and staying hurdling. Not a great deal to find if they go very fast imo.
Rondetto name me the last front runner to win an Arkle?
"Rondetto Date Joined: 20 Jul 10
Strontium I don't get your way of thinking. On one hand you are saying you think Darlan might be good enough to win the Champion Hurdle on the other hand you are saying they all finished in a heap in the Supreme which would indicate the form may not be any good."
This is not an inconsistent point of view. The form of the Supreme doesn't look great so far, but the point is once good novices go in to open company they tend to improve, by different amounts and at different rates. Clearly he wouldn't have been good enough to win the CH last time he raced but that's irrelevant since the race is in March 2013.
The current Champion Hurlder improved 25 lbs in his first season in open company. If Darlan improves 25 lb he'll be the highest rated hurdler in training. I have no idea if he'll be good enough to win the Champion Hurdle, but it's folly to rule it out at this stage, especially given his connections. One could make similar arguements for Cinders and Ashes, Montbazon and others.
You could be entirely right about Simonsig - but I take the view he's done far more so far, and looks far more promising, than any horse that ran in the Supreme.
Finally, and I suspect not for the last time this season, fences are not hurdles. Form over one just does not translate literally to form over the other.
Strontium I don't get your way of thinking. On one hand you are saying you think Darlan might be good enough to win the Champion Hurdle on the other hand you are saying they all finished in a heap in the Supreme which would indicate the form may not be any good."
This is not an inconsistent point of view. The form of the Supreme doesn't look great so far, but the point is once good novices go in to open company they tend to improve, by different amounts and at different rates. Clearly he wouldn't have been good enough to win the CH last time he raced but that's irrelevant since the race is in March 2013.
The current Champion Hurlder improved 25 lbs in his first season in open company. If Darlan improves 25 lb he'll be the highest rated hurdler in training. I have no idea if he'll be good enough to win the Champion Hurdle, but it's folly to rule it out at this stage, especially given his connections. One could make similar arguements for Cinders and Ashes, Montbazon and others.
You could be entirely right about Simonsig - but I take the view he's done far more so far, and looks far more promising, than any horse that ran in the Supreme.
Finally, and I suspect not for the last time this season, fences are not hurdles. Form over one just does not translate literally to form over the other.
It never does exactly but horse like Dawn Run Night Nurse even Moscow Flyer, Azertop, Sizing Europe My Way De Solzen and most likely the daddy of them all Sprinter Sacre were Group horses over hurdles.
Hell if Sprinter Sacre went back to hurdles now he's matured he'd be 4/6 for the race and win it. :0)
I backed the Henderson due sometime ago for the QMCC Arkle double but I must say I think Overturn could surprise a few people.
As far as being a front runner goes Bluebirdfan if you get the right horse they can run you ragged round there. Until Sprinter Sacre came along Dunkirk was regarded as one of the best if not theee best 2 miler ever to grace a racecourse.
If you watch Overturn he is very precise and measures his hurdles I can't see why he wont be able to jump fences and there's no disputing his speed. When you consider the Champion Hurdle is 1/2 furlong further than the Arkle but the time they run it in is about the same imagine what Overturn could do if he could relate his hurdle form to fences.
As Strontium says it doesn't always work out like that but should it do so there would be only one winner.
tbh I was never a big fan of Overturn over hurdles he always looked like he was there to be shot at. I just think he's the type who could run riot in 2 mile chases.
Hell if Sprinter Sacre went back to hurdles now he's matured he'd be 4/6 for the race and win it. :0)
I backed the Henderson due sometime ago for the QMCC Arkle double but I must say I think Overturn could surprise a few people.
As far as being a front runner goes Bluebirdfan if you get the right horse they can run you ragged round there. Until Sprinter Sacre came along Dunkirk was regarded as one of the best if not theee best 2 miler ever to grace a racecourse.
If you watch Overturn he is very precise and measures his hurdles I can't see why he wont be able to jump fences and there's no disputing his speed. When you consider the Champion Hurdle is 1/2 furlong further than the Arkle but the time they run it in is about the same imagine what Overturn could do if he could relate his hurdle form to fences.
As Strontium says it doesn't always work out like that but should it do so there would be only one winner.
tbh I was never a big fan of Overturn over hurdles he always looked like he was there to be shot at. I just think he's the type who could run riot in 2 mile chases.
Just watched the Supreme again; how far does Cinders win by if he doesn't walk through the 4th and the last?
the last winner of the arkle who led fron the start was ferdys,analogues daughter.
if it learns to jump it could make the frame,nh said it would improve this season,i dont think cinders and ases will be out the 1st 3 either.
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539