If Grand Crus performs like he did in the Feltham

although i am keen on a few others if grans crus can repeat his feltham chase win then he must have every chance in the king george, the form has worked out well with the 2nd 3rd and 4th all winning good races since .if you can ignore the rsa run( for whatever reason) then he must have an exellent chance and should have more improvement to come ,and the track seems to suit so   a good few positives ! hard to knock his chance at this stage  really .good luck with it .

I agree it's probably his ideal race but I don't think beating Silvianaco Conti by a fast diminishing 2 l was "awesome". You need a horse that stays a strongly run 3 m, which the King George always is, and I'm not convinced Grands Crus is one. The Feltham he won could not have been run to suit him more if he'd had 100 tries.

It looks like it could be a very tough renewal in 2012 - Long Run, Riverside Theatre, possibly Captain Chris, perhaps one of the Gigginstown stayers, possibly Finians Rainbow, possibly Kauto Star, Invictus, Silvianaco Conti. If so, it will take a very good horse to win it.

Kauto was able to take care of the 2-2 1/2 milers because he had enormous class and was a stayer with great speed. 3 m at Kemptom has probably been his ideal conditions.

Remember he won 2 Tingle Creeks and was top rated over 2, 2 1/2 and 3 miles in 2007. Most horses are not Kauto Star and it is a mistake to assume other horses can do things he has.

PS - Grands Crus would need to find another stone on both OR and Timeform ratings to win the King George - so if he does what he did in the Feltham, on the figures, he'll be well beaten in the KG.

i have already put up 2 for the king george at what imo are value choices ,and they have to improve roughly the same or more as grans crus its entirely possible and these 2nd season chasers may be a decent bunch (then again they may be pants ) the thing is the kauto is 12 now and long run is looking vulnerable so may be time for the new kids on the block to rule . the big fly in the ointment is finians his owner has said he is stepping up in trip .

Foyles, I certainly expect the novices to improve but I feel there are at least 3 better than Grands Crus (though GC may well be the best to run in the King George). I was just pointing out that the last Feltham was probably not a King George winning performance.

Kauto and Long Run were the top two rated staying chasers last year. Ratings are static but horses aren't - however, both merit great respect over a C&D that suits them both very well. If Kauto does tuen up we can expect him to be tuned to the minute once again.

I don't want to be overly critical of GC - he is a good horse and as I said above I think 3 m at Kempton might be ideal for him. I just won't be rushing out to back him at 6/1 for a race that's 5 months away, especially when his last race was an unexplained blob at odds-on.

*sorry, he went off 6/5 fav - memory playing tricks - but my point still stands.

Strontium - Not that I think Grand Crus stays properly but Timeform and OR ratings aren't worth a to$$.

Long Run won the Feltham, before a below par run in the RSA, only to win the KG the next season.
I appreciate that doesn't mean Grands Crus will do the same, but there are a some similarities, and after disappointing in the PP Long Run improved a stone to win - albeit I'm not sure where they are aiming Grands Crus to start off with

Grand Crus should serve it up to Sprinter Sacre in the Champion Chase next season

Gut feeling is we have already seen the best of Grand Crus.

And that aint good enough.

Wonder what route they will go with the horse this year....maybe same one that Long Run went on when winning Gold Cup...
Paddy Power Gold Cup
King George
Gold Cup...

Agree Grand Cru is a very good horse , the conundrum is

a) Does he stay 3 mile 2 furlongs
won and placed over 3 mile plus , actually unbeaten over 2 mile 5 furlongs (3-3)Fancy ryanair will be the target possibly


b)Is he a flat track horse ideally
good form Kempton (BEAT HIGHLY RATED SILVINIO CONTI) , Newbury (BEAT HIGHLY RATE SONOFVIC), Aintree (LOST TWICE TO THE ONE AND ONLY BIG BUCKS) , form little bit erratic at Cheltenham

c)ground dependent
prefers good or softer - Long held view its ground for turn around in a horses form.If horse goes on lets say fast ground that's plus 20 lengths advantage on his real form.If next race is softer that horse would be minus 20 lengths.I live and breathe this method in working out form.

d)More time between his races (unlike most Pipe horses)
last two festivals Pipe gave him good break from last race going into the festival ( 47 & 79)  ,presumably keeping him fresh.However a stand out for me is last two seasons he kicks of season with 3 straight wins before his winning stops.

Conclusion is back him early season on any type of course with ground no faster than good over variable trips, if he was mine i would start him in King George (easy 3 mile) and third race would be Ryanair -
I fancy him strongly to win King George and Ryanair if they went that way as i feel this Gold Cup could be a classic.

Good analysis VoR and I largely agree with your conclusion. Just to say that when he beat Sonofvic at Newbury it was a very close race even though SoV ploughed through, literally, half the fences - SoV then blew up completely in his only other chase. I did not condsider it an impressive performance by Grands Crus.

I think there is every chance we will see Grands Crus first time up in the Hennessy.  First race last year victory at the Hennessy meeting.  Also connections won the Hennessy with Madison Du Berlais, so presumably all look to the race. Great prize money, usually goes to second season chasers(not always) and we'll see if he stays 3m2f.  Then onto Kempton.  Sounds like a plan to me.

^ Apols 2nd race of season last year was his Newbury win.  Still think they'll go this route though.  Just my opinion.

Hope so Shock - I love the Hennessey

So do I Stront.  Hotels been booked since last December.

Hennessy may be starting point , and he was impressive last season.We know ground will be ok and does run well fresh.

Dare i suggest Mr Pipe that this may of been long term plan and possibly messed about with him to give him slighty lower handicap rating.It wouldn't be first time yard played silly buggers.

For what its worth i fancy Invictus if yard in form

Is it possible they may consider the Pp and Hennessy double as per the late Great Endeavour. He was only narrowly denied, and my impression is Grands Crus should be the better stayer. Some of Grands Crus most impressive performances were lumping top weight  ariund over hurdles in decent handicaps as well.
I think hed have a decent chance at both but defeats may even send him off a bigger price for what should be the main target at Kempton

Tom Scudamore is looking forward to a successful campaign with Grands Crus.

The jockey expects the David Pipe-trained grey to put a poor final run of last season in the RSA Chase at Cheltenham behind him.

The seven-year-old was a well-beaten fourth to Bobs Worth after being sent off a hot favourite thanks to winning his first three races over fences, culminating in the Feltham Novices' Chase at Kempton on Boxing Day.

"He seems in really good form and looks fantastic. He's back cantering and had his first one at the beginning of the week," Scudamore told At The Races.

"He came back wrong from Cheltenham. The run round Kempton in the Feltham was probably my biggest thrill of the whole season. He wasn't the same horse at Cheltenham. He didn't pick up when I thought he came there to win the race.

"Normally he kicks into another gear, but on that day it didn't happen. That's racehorses, but he looks fantastic and David (Pipe) will get him back - no doubt about that.

"There are lots of options for him. There's Cheltenham, Haydock and places like that. We'll see how he is, but he looks very well at the moment."

That horse is always gonna look good at home. Where he'll get found out is in truly run races where he needs to stay. Given how classy he is he'll get away with it many times but they need to realise 2m4f is his optimal trip.

Voice of Reason
Flat track horse ?????????



Loves Cheltenham


Messed about with him ?????????????????????



FFS he wins nearly every time he runs.

now now.....................!

Think Racingguru has it about right with this horse,2m4 is his optimum trip,particularly at Cheltenham.

Their does seem to be a fair few choosing to ignore his RSA performance.
Yes a horse can ge forgiven one run,but i think it sensible not to back him too heavy to prove that run wrong.

Personally would not back him for any race over 2 and a half at the top level.

I pretty much agree with you both, though I think he might get 3 m at Kempton/Aintree/Haydock at a stretch (not ideal though).

anyone ever heard a jockey say

' he has come back in and looks awful can't see him doing anything this season'.

^ Yes, but not in print!

All you naysayers are in for a rough season with this beast. He stays just fine. I think he'll get an entry in the Paddy Power for sure, but expect him to go to the Betfair and then the King George before skipping on to the Gold Cup via the Pillar.

Only thing putting me off a decent wedge on him for the Gold Cup is the ground; am worried it will always be a bit quick for him to be at his best. If it was on the easy side he'd be a major player. I think his speed is a red herring - it's not that he wants an intermediate trip, it's just that he's faster than most classy horses. Getting him to settle is obviously key but he has plenty of basic stamina in the locker.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree about this at this stage Tom As always, it will be fun finding out what the horse can do.

PS, re Tom Scu, I haven't been able to take him seriously since he was apparently in tears when Big Buck's beat Grands Crus. Perhaps not a student of the form book

Or a sign that Grands Crus is in fact a beast

Tom - most very good horses appear to stay pretty well because they are on the bridle so long but the acid test is when there is a strong pace and good company. It's a difficult decision as to what trip a top class horse should be campaigned over as opposition at other distances is relevant. Grand Crus whilst not staying 3m properly could do very well over that trip given that there are weak fields and often soft paces in the races. But Gold Cup no chance whatever going.

But he has shown he stays perfectly well, and under unsuitable conditions!

Although not being the strongest of fields, there was enough strength in depth in his Cleeve Hurdle massacre on soft ground to show that he has more than enough stamina. And in his defeats to Big Buck's over timber, he saw out the trip very well. OK, perhaps the pace was not a truly searching one, but he lasted a lot longer than Oscar Whisky did this year and that one is a very, very high-class horse.

I am in full agreement with your general point; any horse can stay any trip if it is running against weak enough opposition, but this one has been running in very high grade races from an early age over the trip, and on testing ground. His win in that valuable Haydock handicap might have been a shoo-in based on his weight and the ability he had to carry much more, but he still won pulling a cart and non-stayers don't do that in very testing conditions. I've seen many good horses wilt up that straight even off slow paces (Bensalem did it over hurdles a little while back in a slowly-run race and he won a lungbursting William Hill at the Festival).

This is not aimed at anyone on here, but more of a general point: it never ceases to surprise me how quickly punters can dismiss a horse based on one bad run. Even a lot of the greats were hit and miss, but this one has only ever disappointed once to my mind, and that disappointment was so great that it almost makes it easier for me to forgive; if he had come there on the bridle and then paddled after the last to fade into fourth in the RSA I'd have to admit the trip did for him. But he was spent at the turn and there is no way if I am any judge whatsoever that it was a stamina issue. Take out that disappointment and he has a great Cheltenham record, form in top-class races over a variety of trips and on a range of ground (no small thing for these Grade One championship horses to have as a feather in their bows), and, as flyingbolt said earlier on this thread, he wins nearly every time he runs!

I suppose I am happy that the consensus seems to be he won't stay three miles well enough to win at the highest level. If he lines up in the Betfair on softish ground I will most certainly be putting my money where my mouth is!

Tom, here's one of the places where we disagree. GC's run at Newbury just wasn't that impressive. He narrowly beat Sonofvic conceding 7 lb when SoV was making his chase debut and went through, literally, half his fences. In his next chase (the Dipper?) SoV totally blew up. I'm also still not convinced his Feltham run was all that good - although the horses he beat have won good races since Kempton is clearly unsuitable for Bobsworth and I'll be surprised in Silvianaco Conti turns out to be top class. I'm prepared to believe that Grands Crus RSA was closer to his true running than you think. I might be totally and utterly wrong about this horse - that's the nature of the game - but it is my view at the moment.

Tom - here's my  issue. I decided he didn't stay AFTER the Cleeve. Backed up by his Aintree effort that year and again in the RSA so 3 times.

I guess its how you look at races but the Cleeve just didn't do it for me and thats from a person holding a big AP EW voucher for the world which I unloaded the win IR for a good profit. Just didn't pull away in the Cleeve like a stayer would against moderate opposition.

No again people will say opposition in Cleev wasn't moderate etc but for him it was. I think that highly of the horse that I think he could win a Ryanair and shake up Sprinter Sacre over 2m so its relative.

Clear to me he did not stay in the RSA,and to my mind thats as good as he is anyway,no display by him over fences has got me thinking any different to that.
If anyone chooses to ignore that run,you are entitled to,but rather dangerous imo,and i really think anyone following this horse will lose money,unless he is campaigned at a trip the horse is comfortable with.
And that aint 3m from what i have seen.

I agree with various things people are saying on here.

I think he can definitely win a Betfair, and I would back him if he lines up (for small stakes and odds depending).  I do think his optimum trip is 3m, not 2m4 or 3m2, which is why I think a Betfair or a King George may be ideal.  Only problem with the Betfair is Haydock can become a bog, so first time out in open chase company in a bog may have a big impact on the rest of his season.

I didn't back him in the RSA, but I am prepared to give him another chance, because I'm not sure it was his true running.  If he flops in the Betfair then we'll all know; the beauty of racing.

However having said that, based on this year's RSA, I'd have to back First Lieutenant for the Ryanair at 32, rather than Grands Crus at 11.

Is Grands Crus the new Binocular?  The ultimate opinion divider!

Fair assessment Wellchief but to finish on such a polemic now thats naughty LOL

Obviously it depends who else turns up, but i think  i would fancy him more at Kempton than Haydock. The slightly better southern ground might make Kempton less of a slog.

Grand Crus needs to actually achieve something before any comparasims with Binocular are anywhere near valid.
At the moment hes a horse thats won some novice chases and was a fair staying hurdler.

Budd Bino

Only just picked up on this thread but wanted to address a couple of points from the first page.

Firstly, Strontium you say you need a horse who stays a strongly run three miles to win the King George and that you suspect Grands Crus has not proven this. I would contest that the Feltham under the exact King George conditions was run at an extreme pace set by Mr Moonshine and Teaforthree (a decent horse in his own right, who won at the festival). The race was actually run in a quicker time than the King George. I don't know what timeform rated the two races and don't particularly care to find out but I can see topspeed gave Grands Crus a higher mark than Kauto Star so I would also contest your point that his Feltham form would have him way back in this years King George (a race that already lacks a standout candidate, despite the circumstantial depth you point too).

I find it a little strange that noone has mentioned the burst blood vessel in the RSA. This would seem a perfectly plausible explanation for him traveling so well and then coming to a virtual stop very quickly, almost reminiscent of Sizing Europe in Katchit's Champion Hurdle. Does anyone seriously believe at his best he is about the same horse as Walkon?

Voice of reason I can only assume your name is ironic! 'Erratic' form at Cheltenham? Throwing the RSA to get a few less lbs in the Hennessey!?

dangerous to say a horse will not stay , we can all say and think what we like ,but the persons best informed will be connections i.e trainer and jockey, they are closest to the horse and will have a better idea than anyone else .
he stayed  3m well enough over hurdles winning several races and finishing 2nd to big bucks in the world hurdle  and has won over 3m over fences  so i dont think trip is an issue,  and he has  class and can jump and has room for improvement .to me his price  for the king george is a little short and i think there is better value elsewhere but he is definatly a  serious contender  for all the top staying chases this season and  if he were to win the king george or gold cup  it would hardly be the biggest shock  ever .

Barnsey, I somewhat going over old ground here, perhaps from one of the other threads. My main problem with Grands Crus is that I don't actually think he's that good. He narrowly beat SonofVic at Newbury in a horrible race then narrowly beat Silvianaco Conti and Bobsworth at Kempton. SC does not appear to be a superstar and Bobsworth was unsuited by the track and had a breathing problem. This is of course all opinion but it was my opinion before the RSA, which did nothing to change it because he got stuffed.

As for whether he stays, what's unreasonable about saying I'm not convinced yet? He dominated the Feltham from a little over half way against inferior horses - optimum conditions for him to stay - yet he was still being reeled in by the others down the straight. AP McCoy has said if they ran the Feltham 100 times it couldn't be run to suit Grands Crus better. Before that, he didn't stay convincingly against Big Buck's in the World Hurlde or Liverpool Hurdle (admittedly not easy). Ruby Walsh says Grands Crus doesn't see out his races and he's been at the sharp end against him at least 3 times - he's also an excellent judge who's opinion I respect.

I don't entirely accept the KG/Feltham time arguement. In NH races, times are taken from the tape going up. In the Feltham the horses were right on the tape and running (it was almost a flase start), in the KG they were some distance back and cantering. That alone accounts for the time difference in the races. According to someone in RP (sorry, I forget who - Rodway perhaps), Kauto and GC ran the final circuit of their races in similar times. But even that ignores the facts that GC carried less weight and ran on the rail, whereas Kauto ran at least half the lap 3 horses wide. All I want to draw from this is that simply comparing the times of the two races is not straightforward, even if the conditions were "identical".

I'm not convinced Grands Crus properly stays a hard run 3 m at the top level. I stand to be proved wrong and would not be disappointed if I were. That's just my view at the moment.

As for your final comment to me - I'd say the Champion Chaser Finians Rainbow and the former King George and Gold Cup winner Long Run are the stand outs at this stage. There's a horse who might run called Kauto Star who's also OK round the C&D.

I think the jury is out a little on GC, but i forgive him against Sonofvic (giving weight and a very quick reappearance against IMO a smart horse who I accept did not live up to billing) and in te RSA where he travelled great.

My feeling is he may not be a grinder (and the RSA I think was a grind). I think his Feltham form is good - Silviniaco was all wrong at Ascot but ran impressively at Aintree and is a smart horse who I think will do well this yr. Bobs was unsuited by Kempton but I actually think GC was worth more than the margin of victory at Kempton but he was ridden too aggressively. As I say the jury IMO is a little out but he could come good.

After the RSA, Pipe said -

"I am glad to say that we may have got to the bottom of Grands Crus's effort in the RSA Chase last week.

"His blood is fine but his scope was not 100 per cent and it's quite possible that is why he ran like he did at Cheltenham.

"I've discussed it with the owners and he won't run again this season. He'll go on his holidays now and he's one to look forward to for next season."

Foyles - the persons best informed will be connections i.e trainer and jockey, they are closest to the horse and will have a better idea than anyone else .

You'd like to think that were true but sadly some jockeys are very poor judges as are some trainers. D.Pipe is not one of the poorer ones by any means but GC is such a high quality horse he can fool connections very easily that he stays when he doesn't.

As I've said I can count 3 times at least where he hasn't stayed according to my interpretation of staying and that includes a race where everyone thinks its cast iron proof that he does stay.

Anyway good to talk jumps - 6 weeks to Chepstow. Time to get the betting boots shined up.

Pipe and Scudamore clearly adore the horse and it must be possible that affects their judgement and objectivity. Some of Pipe's comments towards the last Festival were unbelievable.

^ Or that they adore the horse because they have had plenty of good ones but very few this good...

Tom - very few people think the horse isn't top class. Trip is always the issue with good horses - speed blinds and deceives!

Possible he could be top class at a distance that suits i guess,but no way is he top class yet at any distance,and he will never be top class at 3m imo.
All still to prove.

Probably an obvious comment, but just struck me how similar the current Grand Crus situation is with that of Long Run 2 years ago. Both had impressively won the Feltham, both then disappointed in the RSA losing to the previous years Albert Bartlett Hurdle winner. The rest we know for Long Run - placed  in the PP and then wins the KG and the GC. I can't recall at the time whether there were the same questions on Grand Crus ability to stay, but I would argue that Grand Crus won a much better quality Feltham than Long Run. I'd love to see Grand Crus in the PP but think he nights struggle to see off a well handicapped horse as Long Run did. Roll on November...

It's superficially similar. However, Long Run didn't get stuffed out of sight in the RSA and he got beaten by a very good horse. He also had some top class chasing form in France before he came to the UK. He's also a horse who seems to need his seasonal debut (explaining his PP run somewhat and his Betfair Chase the following season), and is now a doughty stayer so even then 2m 5f may have been on the short side.

Nevertheless, I would like to see GC in the PP as he's much better than a 157 horse and it's over his ideal trip (imo) so he should run well. Then he can come back and compete in the Ryanair.

I think Grands Crus will have to disappoint in a big way and unequivocally prove he doesn't stay for them to choose the Ryanair over the Gold Cup. IMO he does stay 3m and he will win at least one big race prior to Cheltenham so I can't see him ending up in the Ryanair Stront

RNL, I expect that's right. GC will end up in the Gold Cup but only because he won't be given the chance to fail enough beforehand. 

However, I believe his best chance of winning at the Festival is the Ryanair (and for that reason, off 157, he's a big player in the PP if he runs there).

I quite like the idea of Grands Crus running in the PP, I just don't think it'll happen. I think they think the world of this horse and it'll be the top grade 1 races like the Betfair & KG rather than the PP and/or Hennessy.
I've already backed GC for the KG as I think he's the most likely winner based on his performance there last year. My biggest worry would be Finians Rainbow

Maybe, but the PP is a prestigious race, possibly better as a season opener, and the Pipe's love it. I'd not be surprised if he turns up in any of the Betfair, PP or Hennessey as his season opener (and the last would resolve the staying question). I'm sure he'll run in the King George and Gold Cup.

Re the King George, if he's a runner, Kauto Star is the obvious bet - he's won it 5 years of the last 6, he's the top rated chaser in training, he won't run unless he's spot on and he'll be trained to second. If he doesn't make it, Riverside Theatre for me.

Would love to see Kauto do it again, and happily lose money seeing it. Would certainly be a danger if he does turn up, and to be honest I think I'll be more surprised if he doesn't. Without doubt would be the best horse in the race, but can he do it again, after the last bad fall they thought he wasn't right for over a season, at his age can he come back again (I guess if any horse can it's this one!)

I'm not so sure what we're going to see from Riverside Theatre this year, I wonder if the Ryanair will leave its mark, he had a very tough race there. On the other hand I think Finians Ranibow finished the seaosn very impressively and could even improve for the step up.

I think Riverside might be an exceptionally good horse and 3 m on a flat, right handed track should be ideal for him. Finians is an interesting one for sure but there has to be some doubt he'll stay (though he got the "easy" 2 1/2m at Aintree with no problem). I know others have argued on here he will improve for a staying trip and he has to be respected as the Champion Chaser, I'm just not sure myself.

Personally I hope Kauto doesn't run again - I'd be heartbroken if anything happens to him. But if he does run he's a massive danger to all over that C&D. I take your point about the fall - I've had the same thought - but the horse is hard as nails.

It could be shaping up to be a stellar race - we're talking about the top rated chaser in training, the Ryanair winner and the Champion Chaser. Then we've got a former KG and Gold Cup winner in Long Run. If Grands Crus does beat that lot he's a classy animal.