If Grand Crus performs like he did in the Feltham

although i am keen on a few others if grans crus can repeat his feltham chase win then he must have every chance in the king george, the form has worked out well with the 2nd 3rd and 4th all winning good races since .if you can ignore the rsa run( for whatever reason) then he must have an exellent chance and should have more improvement to come ,and the track seems to suit so   a good few positives ! hard to knock his chance at this stage  really .good luck with it .

PS - Grands Crus would need to find another stone on both OR and Timeform ratings to win the King George - so if he does what he did in the Feltham, on the figures, he'll be well beaten in the KG.

Foyles, I certainly expect the novices to improve but I feel there are at least 3 better than Grands Crus (though GC may well be the best to run in the King George). I was just pointing out that the last Feltham was probably not a King George winning performance.

Kauto and Long Run were the top two rated staying chasers last year. Ratings are static but horses aren't - however, both merit great respect over a C&D that suits them both very well. If Kauto does tuen up we can expect him to be tuned to the minute once again.

I don't want to be overly critical of GC - he is a good horse and as I said above I think 3 m at Kempton might be ideal for him. I just won't be rushing out to back him at 6/1 for a race that's 5 months away, especially when his last race was an unexplained blob at odds-on.

Strontium - Not that I think Grand Crus stays properly but Timeform and OR ratings aren't worth a to$$.

Grand Crus should serve it up to Sprinter Sacre in the Champion Chase next season

And that aint good enough.

Agree Grand Cru is a very good horse , the conundrum is

a) Does he stay 3 mile 2 furlongs
won and placed over 3 mile plus , actually unbeaten over 2 mile 5 furlongs (3-3)Fancy ryanair will be the target possibly


b)Is he a flat track horse ideally
good form Kempton (BEAT HIGHLY RATED SILVINIO CONTI) , Newbury (BEAT HIGHLY RATE SONOFVIC), Aintree (LOST TWICE TO THE ONE AND ONLY BIG BUCKS) , form little bit erratic at Cheltenham

c)ground dependent
prefers good or softer - Long held view its ground for turn around in a horses form.If horse goes on lets say fast ground that's plus 20 lengths advantage on his real form.If next race is softer that horse would be minus 20 lengths.I live and breathe this method in working out form.

d)More time between his races (unlike most Pipe horses)
last two festivals Pipe gave him good break from last race going into the festival ( 47 & 79)  ,presumably keeping him fresh.However a stand out for me is last two seasons he kicks of season with 3 straight wins before his winning stops.

Conclusion is back him early season on any type of course with ground no faster than good over variable trips, if he was mine i would start him in King George (easy 3 mile) and third race would be Ryanair -
I fancy him strongly to win King George and Ryanair if they went that way as i feel this Gold Cup could be a classic.

I think there is every chance we will see Grands Crus first time up in the Hennessy.  First race last year victory at the Hennessy meeting.  Also connections won the Hennessy with Madison Du Berlais, so presumably all look to the race. Great prize money, usually goes to second season chasers(not always) and we'll see if he stays 3m2f.  Then onto Kempton.  Sounds like a plan to me.

Hope so Shock - I love the Hennessey

Hennessy may be starting point , and he was impressive last season.We know ground will be ok and does run well fresh.

Dare i suggest Mr Pipe that this may of been long term plan and possibly messed about with him to give him slighty lower handicap rating.It wouldn't be first time yard played silly buggers.

For what its worth i fancy Invictus if yard in form

Tom Scudamore is looking forward to a successful campaign with Grands Crus.

The jockey expects the David Pipe-trained grey to put a poor final run of last season in the RSA Chase at Cheltenham behind him.

The seven-year-old was a well-beaten fourth to Bobs Worth after being sent off a hot favourite thanks to winning his first three races over fences, culminating in the Feltham Novices' Chase at Kempton on Boxing Day.

"He seems in really good form and looks fantastic. He's back cantering and had his first one at the beginning of the week," Scudamore told At The Races.

"He came back wrong from Cheltenham. The run round Kempton in the Feltham was probably my biggest thrill of the whole season. He wasn't the same horse at Cheltenham. He didn't pick up when I thought he came there to win the race.

"Normally he kicks into another gear, but on that day it didn't happen. That's racehorses, but he looks fantastic and David (Pipe) will get him back - no doubt about that.

"There are lots of options for him. There's Cheltenham, Haydock and places like that. We'll see how he is, but he looks very well at the moment."

Voice of Reason
Flat track horse ?????????



Loves Cheltenham


Messed about with him ?????????????????????



FFS he wins nearly every time he runs.

Think Racingguru has it about right with this horse,2m4 is his optimum trip,particularly at Cheltenham.

Their does seem to be a fair few choosing to ignore his RSA performance.
Yes a horse can ge forgiven one run,but i think it sensible not to back him too heavy to prove that run wrong.

Personally would not back him for any race over 2 and a half at the top level.

anyone ever heard a jockey say

' he has come back in and looks awful can't see him doing anything this season'.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree about this at this stage Tom As always, it will be fun finding out what the horse can do.

Or a sign that Grands Crus is in fact a beast

But he has shown he stays perfectly well, and under unsuitable conditions!

Although not being the strongest of fields, there was enough strength in depth in his Cleeve Hurdle massacre on soft ground to show that he has more than enough stamina. And in his defeats to Big Buck's over timber, he saw out the trip very well. OK, perhaps the pace was not a truly searching one, but he lasted a lot longer than Oscar Whisky did this year and that one is a very, very high-class horse.

I am in full agreement with your general point; any horse can stay any trip if it is running against weak enough opposition, but this one has been running in very high grade races from an early age over the trip, and on testing ground. His win in that valuable Haydock handicap might have been a shoo-in based on his weight and the ability he had to carry much more, but he still won pulling a cart and non-stayers don't do that in very testing conditions. I've seen many good horses wilt up that straight even off slow paces (Bensalem did it over hurdles a little while back in a slowly-run race and he won a lungbursting William Hill at the Festival).

This is not aimed at anyone on here, but more of a general point: it never ceases to surprise me how quickly punters can dismiss a horse based on one bad run. Even a lot of the greats were hit and miss, but this one has only ever disappointed once to my mind, and that disappointment was so great that it almost makes it easier for me to forgive; if he had come there on the bridle and then paddled after the last to fade into fourth in the RSA I'd have to admit the trip did for him. But he was spent at the turn and there is no way if I am any judge whatsoever that it was a stamina issue. Take out that disappointment and he has a great Cheltenham record, form in top-class races over a variety of trips and on a range of ground (no small thing for these Grade One championship horses to have as a feather in their bows), and, as flyingbolt said earlier on this thread, he wins nearly every time he runs!

I suppose I am happy that the consensus seems to be he won't stay three miles well enough to win at the highest level. If he lines up in the Betfair on softish ground I will most certainly be putting my money where my mouth is!

Tom - here's my  issue. I decided he didn't stay AFTER the Cleeve. Backed up by his Aintree effort that year and again in the RSA so 3 times.

I guess its how you look at races but the Cleeve just didn't do it for me and thats from a person holding a big AP EW voucher for the world which I unloaded the win IR for a good profit. Just didn't pull away in the Cleeve like a stayer would against moderate opposition.

No again people will say opposition in Cleev wasn't moderate etc but for him it was. I think that highly of the horse that I think he could win a Ryanair and shake up Sprinter Sacre over 2m so its relative.

I agree with various things people are saying on here.

I think he can definitely win a Betfair, and I would back him if he lines up (for small stakes and odds depending).  I do think his optimum trip is 3m, not 2m4 or 3m2, which is why I think a Betfair or a King George may be ideal.  Only problem with the Betfair is Haydock can become a bog, so first time out in open chase company in a bog may have a big impact on the rest of his season.

I didn't back him in the RSA, but I am prepared to give him another chance, because I'm not sure it was his true running.  If he flops in the Betfair then we'll all know; the beauty of racing.

However having said that, based on this year's RSA, I'd have to back First Lieutenant for the Ryanair at 32, rather than Grands Crus at 11.

Is Grands Crus the new Binocular?  The ultimate opinion divider!

Obviously it depends who else turns up, but i think  i would fancy him more at Kempton than Haydock. The slightly better southern ground might make Kempton less of a slog.