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The Queen Mother and the overestimation of Sizing Europe's chances

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Replies: 55
By:
Sergei_Rebrofl
When: 11 Mar 12 11:06
As others have said, great post OP. I've been thinking of a small lay of Sizing, as good as the horse is  (and he is fantastic) the intensity of his programme coupled with his age has really put me off - a few mates have been going down the Sprinter/Sizing double route, and I can't help but think that they're the two weakest odds on shouts of the festival.

As for who can win, I think that Somersby ran his race in the VC. Wishful Thinking is one I'm really interested in for a place, he certianly has the raw ability for me, though it's hope more than expectation that he'll start fulfilling his promise now.
By:
Slabster
When: 11 Mar 12 12:14
Well Chief, I think it's unfair to judge Finians Rainbow's Arkle against Sizing Europe's at this stage. For instance Somersby has only won his Grade 1 in recent months.

Captain Chris has had an unlucky season imo. He unseated when looking like the winner in the Haldon Gold Cup. Then in the King George he was running a cracker before blowing up. A line can be drawn through his last run. Finians Rainbow has ran as well as Somersby did in the same period between Arkle and Champion Chase last year. Medermit won the Haldon and ran a cracker behind Quantitativeeasing at Cheltenham. Realt Dubh has yet to run this season and could still be a serious horse. The very fact that they are willing to run him in the Queen Mother first time out tells you how highly he's regarded.

My point is that we've had a year extra to judge the form of Sizing Europe's Arkle, which before Somersby won a Grade 1, I wouldn't say looked very strong.
By:
wellchief
When: 11 Mar 12 12:28
I accept that point Slabster, was going to say it in my post.

But at the same point as now, in the year after Sizing's Arkle, Riverside Theatre had won a G1 open company chase and been 2nd in a King George, Somersby ran Master Minded to a short head and Mad Max won the G2 novice chase at Aintree.

I think they were a much stronger bunch of hurdlers in Sizing's Arkle; such as Sizing, Captain Cee Bee (Supreme winner), Osana (placed in a Champion Hurdle), Somersby (placed in a Supreme).

I accept Captain Chris won at Punchestown and Medermit's run this year, but it's more a gut feeling that Sizing Europe's Arkle was stronger and will produce more long term better chasers.

I think last year's Arkle was poor to be honest, but can still see Finians being placed in the QMCC
By:
Extreme Conviction
When: 11 Mar 12 13:11
Thank you for all the feedback.

Have also managed to get some feedback on twitter from some very knowledgable people in the industry. Richard Hoiles and Simon Rowlands (head of research and product development at timeform).

Both raised the point that ratings horse achieve don't tend to have a normal distributon. Simon commented that they had a skewed distribution. He also took the time to email me with a more detailed response.

Below is the response I got from him if people are interested in the topic(I hope he doesn't mind me posting it on here!)

First off, I hope you did not mind me disagreeing with one of the premises of your piece. I did think it was very refreshing to see an intelligent and alternative approach to form analysis: well done. Much of what else is out there is tired and unimaginative.

Hopefully the attached will give a picture of ratings distributions. Whereas "master" (i.e. the one rating used as definitive) ratings do distribute close to normally over a horse population (though there are issues with opportunity presented by the race programme and a tendency to a long tail at high values), the array of "performance" ratings of a horse do not.

My example uses a smallish sample, simply as I had to extract them manually, but still illustrates the point: the graph is heavily skewed towards a horse "running to form". When you think about it, a horse's maximum performance rating has to exist at least once for each horse, and therefore the frequency with which it appears must be at least 1/N where N is the number of runs being considered.

In addition, we are not observing a natural phenomenon but one which is greatly prone to human intervention, notably in terms of a trainer/jockey trying to ensure a horse runs well (well, we hope so anyway!). A horse is not raced at random, on a random day, under random conditions, and without being trained to peak for racecourse performance. The distribution should skew towards running well.

I mentioned the possibility of conducting a Monte Carlo simulation with arrays of ratings. In simple terms, this might be something like:

Sizing Europe performance ratings: 172/172/160/146/164/172/157

Finian's Rainbow performance ratings: 166/153/159/155/138/142/142

If every performance rating was chosen at random countless times, and the higher/highest rating "won" the race (a MC-sim), you would get Sizing Europe "winning" ((3*100)+(1*86)+(1*86)+(1*72)+(1*42))/7 = 84% of the time and Finian's Rainbow winning 16% of the time.

However, you need to do this for every possibility in a race, which may involve many more than two runners and arrays covering more than seven performances. In addition, this works better with exposed horses with established form - such as handicappers - than horses that were and may still be progressing, like this pair.

Nonetheless, it is possible to write this all into a spreadsheet. I know for a fact that many professional punters who employ mathematical modelling use a degree of MC-sim in their conversion of ratings into probabilities (for both win and place).
By:
Arklearkle
When: 11 Mar 12 14:06
Is it true that unsuccessful Arkle runners dont win the Champion Chase. There is logic to it anyway. It is natural and right that when there is a hot-pot in a race that one should look for the value. I believe Big Zeb offers better value than Finians Rainbow but I dont believe he will beat beat SE either but I would have him any day ahead of FR. Both SE and BZ have done it all before.
By:
cruise d
When: 11 Mar 12 17:27
Nobody want to use RT to **** SEs Arkle? He was in the race I believe. Somersby ran a cracker in th Supreme the year before as well. I just don't think he ttained as much as others.

I really wanna find something against SE in this but there looks to be nothing doing. I think it may be a no bet race or maybe just a place bet on Big Zeb.
By:
cruise d
When: 11 Mar 12 17:28
lol it says a s s e s
By:
harry callaghan
When: 14 Mar 12 09:58
theory goes to the test today extreme, personally haven't commented as didn't agree with it all and i see other decent judges on here did to a degree...all racing opinion i suppose...so will keep a lid on it as like i say didn't agree with it...

de bromhead has never made mistakes before and hope the waffle that i have been through doesn't bare out..
By:
FOYLESWAR
When: 14 Mar 12 11:22
good write up extreme and agree with a lot of your thinking have been on finians since his 2nd to somesby and think he has a fair bit of improvement in him . also on kauto stone  at 20s ant post to a lesser extent as he was going just as well as sizing in the tingle creek untill a mistake 2 or 3 out and with a clear round of jumping and a course that may suit he could make the frame although i dont expect him to win .good luck !
By:
comicbookguy
When: 14 Mar 12 11:31
Great write up a pleasure to read. I am with Sizing already but may have a little interest e/w on Finians at 11/2 a free bet if ever there was one IMO. Good luck with your staking plan.
By:
Extreme Conviction
When: 14 Mar 12 20:25
Slightly hollow victory but I'll take it!
By:
TheFormMan
When: 15 Mar 12 02:59
Good call EC,proven correct
By:
harry callaghan
When: 15 Mar 12 03:01
sizing hit 1.2 in the run? and ran to form which i thought was the point of the thread that he had run his races earlier in the season?
By:
TheFormMan
When: 15 Mar 12 03:04
suppose,was refering to the fact that many believed that there was no way FR could match the figure that SE ran to
By:
judorick
When: 15 Mar 12 03:07
was a funny race though with WT failing with a circuit to go and leaving SE in front miles too soon - if he had given a lead to 3 out it woulda been different

doubt SE ran anywhere near peak form
By:
comingupthehill
When: 15 Mar 12 03:50
a fact not mentioned ,but worth noting ,SE was ythe highest rated hurdler who went chasing for quite a few years ,if memory serves me.so this may have lead to higher ratings
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