Cheltenham Festival
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21 Feb 12
13:34
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10 Nov 07
I thought the decision had near enough been made but it seems david wants to keep his options open reading this....
David Pipe continues to give very little away about the likely Cheltenham Festival target for the dashing grey Grands Crus.
The trainer continues to weigh up the options of the novice either sticking to his own experience division in the RSA Chase, or to go for the ultimate shot at glory in the Betfred Cheltenham Gold Cup.
Pipe played his best poker face when he was questioned more deeply at a media open morning on Tuesday and maintains he will continue to monitor the situation.
"We will decide nearer the time," he said.
"We have to see what's in the races and look at ground conditions and everything else.
"Horses do miss Cheltenham for various reasons, not that we want that to happen, and that will make an impact on which race he runs in.
"I'm just keeping an open mind and we'll all sit down and have a chat. I'm sure a decision won't be made until seven to 10 days before the race, and we've still got until the five-day declaration stage.
"It's not that we're not telling people - we're keeping our options open - and if anyone wants to back him, they should back him 'with a run' for either race."
Grands Crus shook up the incredible Big Buck's in the last Ladbrokes World Hurdle and his progress has continued unabated over fences with three consecutive wins at Cheltenham, Newbury and in the Feltham Novices' Chase at Kempton.
And Pipe says any decision will not be affected by the death of Gloria Victis, an immensely promising novice of his father Martin's, who died when pitched straight into the 2000 Gold Cup.
"I remember Gloria Victis, and it was a sad day as he was a very talented horse," he went on.
"But you have to treat every horse as an individual and make a decision on that."
But on the flip-side, he added: "Is Grands Crus going to be fit and well next year? Is he going to be sound? There are pros and cons and we'll decide nearer the time."
He went on: "We have to decide if he's ready for it and look at the opposition. Those are two things.
"Can he travel at the pace of the Gold Cup? I would say yes.
"Can he jump at the pace of the Gold Cup? I'd say that's the only issue.
"He has jumped well and was impressive at Kempton. That's what we're looking into."
well the cat is amongst the pigeons again...I'd say gold is 4-5 and RSA 5-4
which way will he go we ask???
David Pipe continues to give very little away about the likely Cheltenham Festival target for the dashing grey Grands Crus.
The trainer continues to weigh up the options of the novice either sticking to his own experience division in the RSA Chase, or to go for the ultimate shot at glory in the Betfred Cheltenham Gold Cup.
Pipe played his best poker face when he was questioned more deeply at a media open morning on Tuesday and maintains he will continue to monitor the situation.
"We will decide nearer the time," he said.
"We have to see what's in the races and look at ground conditions and everything else.
"Horses do miss Cheltenham for various reasons, not that we want that to happen, and that will make an impact on which race he runs in.
"I'm just keeping an open mind and we'll all sit down and have a chat. I'm sure a decision won't be made until seven to 10 days before the race, and we've still got until the five-day declaration stage.
"It's not that we're not telling people - we're keeping our options open - and if anyone wants to back him, they should back him 'with a run' for either race."
Grands Crus shook up the incredible Big Buck's in the last Ladbrokes World Hurdle and his progress has continued unabated over fences with three consecutive wins at Cheltenham, Newbury and in the Feltham Novices' Chase at Kempton.
And Pipe says any decision will not be affected by the death of Gloria Victis, an immensely promising novice of his father Martin's, who died when pitched straight into the 2000 Gold Cup.
"I remember Gloria Victis, and it was a sad day as he was a very talented horse," he went on.
"But you have to treat every horse as an individual and make a decision on that."
But on the flip-side, he added: "Is Grands Crus going to be fit and well next year? Is he going to be sound? There are pros and cons and we'll decide nearer the time."
He went on: "We have to decide if he's ready for it and look at the opposition. Those are two things.
"Can he travel at the pace of the Gold Cup? I would say yes.
"Can he jump at the pace of the Gold Cup? I'd say that's the only issue.
"He has jumped well and was impressive at Kempton. That's what we're looking into."
well the cat is amongst the pigeons again...I'd say gold is 4-5 and RSA 5-4
which way will he go we ask???
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hope he goes in the Gold, will help make the market for Burton by attracting the ew money
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I'd read that to say he'll run in the Gold Cup if one of Kauto or Long Run misses the race. But he's surely got even less chance of winning that he had a week ago with the re-remergence of Burton Port. It's entirely sensible to keep their options open at this stage.
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Therealbandit
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I hope he goes Gold Cup - leaves the way clear for Invictus in RSA
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I agree Strontium. I reckon its 2/5 RSA.
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I think its 1/5 RSA
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ive had the feeling from the start they ll go for the gold cup and im more sure then ever. Just get the impression they think he can win it and he may well do...for me, the gold cup is odds on.
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The run of Burton Point makes the bid more likely - if he should have beaten the favourite then so can we. Favourite should have been defeated for a third time in a row and there is coughing in the second favourite's stable.
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If Long Run had run below form, then yes. But he didn't, so Grands Crus would now have 3 top horses to beat, not 2.
Your point about Kauto Star is perfectly valid, and exactly the sort of thing Pipe must have in mind in waiting to make his decision. |
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We will have to disagree about Long Run. I think everything went pretty well until the straight when you would have wanted to have seen him put daylight between himself and the opposition. That didn't happen and he should have been reeled in. I backed Burton Port in the RSA when he turned in a particularly shoddy round of jumping (admitedly AP ob board didn't help his cause) but he needs to put that behind him and overcome the second run back after an absence stigma. Some people clearly think Grands Crus has a mountain to climb - I do wonder how many of those are on big in the RSA - but the three you have put up are not entirely rock solid themselves. I am on Grands Crus for both races but betting aside it would make the Gold Cup a good deal more interesting if he took that route.
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All fair enough DD. I'd say that given Long Run broke the track record on Friday the form is strong, and he could be rated around 180 for that performance through What a Friend, though I appreciate the rating is hardly rock solid. I don't have a penny on Grands Crus for either race. As you may have seen on other threads, I don't likle him for the RSA if he turns up there. If he goes for the Gold Cup he should be no shorter than a 25/1 shot imo, based on his form over fences, his inexperience, the record of novices in that race, my reading of him as a possible non-stayer, and the quality of the opposition. I'd expect Midnight Chase, Synchronised, Weird Al, What a Friend and Tidal Bay to beat him, let alone the "top 3".
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I totally agree with strontium 100%. Pipe knows this, and despite all the talk, the RSA is nailed on imo
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Long Run ran bang up to form last time and Nicholls reports that all is well with Kauto Star.
If one of them misses the race I'd say Grands Crus is an even money shot to go for Gold. If both miss it he is 100% going for Gold and if neither miss it then it's 100% RSA. On the basis of the above Pipebet are : Gold Cup 1/16 RSA 12/1 Let's look at the facts re this horse's entries....Betfair Chase (didn't cut up - pulled out), Argento Chase (didn't cut up - pulled out) Laid my nads on GC in the Gold Cup. Am I worried? No. |
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"If one of them misses the race I'd say Grands Crus is an even money shot to go for Gold. If both miss it he is 100% going for Gold and if neither miss it then it's 100% RSA." - I wish I'd put it like that. And it makes Pipe's "wait and see" position absolutely right at this stage.
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To be honest i have my doubts about him getting home in the RSA,and a lot more about him getting home in the Gold Cup.I do need to have another bet in the RSA so personally it would suit me if thats where he ended up,but whether he will or not reading that,i aint sure.
Gut feeling is if LR and KS stay in the Gold Cup,he will be in RSA,but if one or both dont,then he will be in GC. |
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My interpretation is the owners appear split and favour slightly different options so it is being left to the trainer. I have watched the Long run performance and feel he ran perfectly adequately, it seems to have been lost that he was giving Burton Port 10 pounds. The pipe quotes on the matter seem to vary day to day, my personal feeling is that they will feel that the RSA is the way to go, given that they have already run up to the level required to win.
That is not the case with the gold cup just yet where they might need more improvement. I have no monetary interest in Grand Crus for either race although I am very much looking forward to his run. |
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Does anyone know the stats for Pipe runners in the RSA down through the years ? I can't think of many offhand. I always get the feeling that this chase is really hard on novice chasers and there have been a lot of horses had injuries or rarely ran to form thereafter, having taken part.
Also some Trainers are reluctent to have this race as their prime target but won't admit it in public. Its all about the here and now, Gold cup for me. |
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Cant remember him having many runners in recent years.
You may have a point that they dont like the race,if they have a potential star they may well not want to run him in the race. But then would the Gold Cup be any better for him at this stage of his career?? |
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Yes Our Vic I was on at 16s for RSA ffs going like a 1-10 shot from what i recall :(
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Just remembered, Minnehoma won it for the Father in 92' but the horse didn't win again till 94' I think he missed the 93' gold cup through injury. Of course that proves nothing, the old boy went on to win the Grand National. I just get the feeling David Pipe is not a great lover of this particular race.
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budd and say hello the pipes don't like the rsa and never have...comply and die finished second to trabolgan a few years ago but thats all i can remember...
For what it is worth I feel they should go the gold cup route I have no vested interest but feel the race needs some spice with kauto 12 and long run not that convincing to my eye and some exposed handicappers in behind them in the market...I don't agree that he will only run if one of the top 2 drop out...I think they are giving the race serious consideration because they, like me, feel the opposition are mediocre and he will have a valid chance...personally I feel he is a very good horse who will lob round on the bridle and then it is just going to be whether he gets home...I definitely feel he has a realistic chance of getting in the money and you never know from 3 out...I have to say I will back him ew if he takes up the engagement as personally think he is a classy individual, his demolition of champion court (who was fit) earlier in the season reads well to me...obviously whether he stays or not needs to be taken on trust but I feel I will get out in the run anyway as he travels so well..think he will stay myself. In conclusion this battle hardened horse should take up the battle and give us a race to savour...the site of him lobbing on the snaffle at the top of the hill will excite us all...as will seeing what he finds off it. |
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Our Vic was favourite when Rule Supreme won at 28/1...
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Given his style of racing pace is also going to be an important consideration. You are pretty sure Midnight Chase will go a resonable clip in the Gold Cup, not so sure with Last Instalment out of the way what is going to happen in the RSA.
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Harry, where can you get access to pipes "media day". Iknow he is in the post tomorrow, wanted to have a look tonight if possible.
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Seems to take a while to warm up over fences. Gets behind, ragged jumping. Whichever race if they go of fast he could just fall to pieces.
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micky not sure pal that write up was off the sporting life website
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its quite obvious to me that there gonna run him in the Gold Cup,if they had no intention of running him in the GC then he wouldnt still be entered for it,This "Were just keeping our options open" is a load of tosh,
id have it odds on he'll turn up in the GC,just my opinion of course |
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Pipe to leave Gold Cup decision on Grands Crus until a week before Cheltenham showpiece
By Marcus Townend Trainer David Pipe has said the fatal fall of hugely talented novice chaser Gloria Victis in the 2000 Cheltenham Gold Cup will have no bearing on the decision whether to run fellow novice Grands Crus in the big race on March 16. French import Gloria Victis, who was trained by Pipe’s champion trainer father Martin, broke a leg when falling two out in the race won by Looks Like Trouble. The gelding had earned his place in the Gold Cup line-up with an impressive success in the Racing Post Chase and, having raced over fences in his homeland, the Gold Cup was his seventh race over fences. He will line up at the Festival with only three runs under his belt, something for Pipe to ponder as he decides whether to take on Kauto Star and Long Run in the Gold Cup for which he is 8-1 third favourite, or stick to novice company and try to justify 7-4 favouritism in the RSA Chase. Pipe said: ‘I remember Gloria Victis and it was a sad day as he was a very talented horse but you have to treat every horse as an individual and make a decision on that. ‘There are pros and cons (to running). Is Grands Crus going to be fit and well next year? Is he going to be sound? We have to decide if he’s ready for it and look at the opposition. Those are two things. ‘Can he travel at the pace of the Gold Cup? I would say yes. Can he jump at the pace of the Gold Cup? I’d say that’s the only issue. He has jumped well and was impressive at Kempton. That’s what we’re looking into.’ ‘We have to see what’s in the races and look at ground conditions. ‘I’m just keeping an open mind and we’ll all sit down and have a chat. I’m sure a decision won’t be made until seven to 10 days before the race. ‘It’s not that we’re not telling people - we’re keeping our options open – and if anyone wants to back him, they should back him ‘with a run’ for either race.’ Keeping an open mind: Pipe talks to the media at Pond House Stables Pipe is hoping Dynaste can succeed where Grands Crus failed and pull off the seemingly impossible by preventing Big Buck’s from winning a fourth World Hurdle, even though he has twice been brushed aside by the dominant rival this season. Pipe’s other Festival runners include 2010 Byrne Group Plate and 2011 Paddy Power Gold Cup hero Great Endeavour (Byrne Group Plate or Ryanair Chase). Junior, winner of last year’s Kim Muir Chase and favourite for the Grand National could go for either the Gold Cup or the JLT Speciality Handicap Chase, also a target for long-term absentee The Package. Buena Vista is being prepared to try to win a third Pertemps Hurdle Final while Kazlian will be the yard’s only juvenile runner, either in the Triumph Hurdle, Fred Winter Juvenile Handicap Hurdle or Martin Pipe conditional jockeys’ Hurdle. Cheltenham are preparing to start watering next Wednesday with ground conditions currently quicker than ideal ahead of the showpiece meeting which starts on March 13. Clerk of the course Simon Claisse said: ‘Warmer weather is on the way and I think it will be 15 or 16C by the end of the week. We are currently good, good to firm in places and without between six and seven millimetres of water, we would be good to firm by Monday. ‘We have had a very dry February and we are trying to maintain the ground at good. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/racing/article-2104442/Pipe-leave-Gold-Cup-decision-Grands-Crus-week-Cheltenham-showpiece.html#ixzz1n38usRnc |
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Judging by the strength of some of the opinions on here, Betfair have missed a trick in not opening a "Which race will Grands Crus run in?" market.
My personal view is that he will almost certainly run in the RSA unless one of the principals in the Gold Cup don't get there, and that's the only reason Pipe is reluctant to commit at this stage. |
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Spot on fella. If you've any capacity on the lay side in the Gold Cup I'd get Grands Crus in your lay book.
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Whilst the ground will obviously be safe, it has always been said that Grand Crus is better with cut. Each race is on the second day of the respective course and so very possible the going will be quicker than ideal. To my mind that may make him vulnerable in either race.
Though my pocket says goes for the GC, his best chance clearly is the RSA. The only way I see him running in the GC is if, as others mentioned, something god forbid happens to the front two or if it is soft when their concerns about jumping at GC speed would be somewhat alleviated |
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Reading this you would think Grands Crus was a poor jumper - he has effectively made one mistake - when he didn't come close to falling - in three runs. Not sure what you expect? He has been far more fluent than the likes of Bobs Worth and First Lieutenant. And Invictus, who I wouldn't rate a certain starter, was all over the place when he ran at Cheltenham. As for the Gold Cup both Long Run and Kauto Star have hardly been perfect themselves in the jumping stakes.
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id be surprised if they dont go for the gold cup.
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DD not sure if you were commenting about my post but I was only referring to what Pipe himself said in that jumping at GC speed was still up in the air and an unknown.
I'd agree as a novice he jumps very well. Invictus definitely goes RSA, if all is well, and would suggest that it is a perfectly plausible explanation for his Cheltenham run |
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Skybet gone 1/2 on the RSA and 6/4 the Gold Cup on their RUK price request list
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Invictus is on a £60,000 bonus. Thornton has already stated he can't beat Grands Crus. The betting alone tells you he has a better chance in the Jewson and while he remains in both races nothing is cut and dried. I think he may well be flattered by the Reynoldstown win and even if he can jump straight I have a feeling that a stiff three miles might not be his ideal.
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by that argument, Grand Crus much shorter in RSA betting, so should go for that race whereas your previous post you seem to imply that he should go for Gold Cup.
I would also suggest that Ascot is a fairly stiff three miles.Yes the Jewson would seem easier, but take out out Grand Crus, nothing left in RSA to be that scared of imo. In truth I hadn't factored in the £60k bonus |
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Yes, I think Grands Crus is capable of stepping up to the more difficult option, not so sure that Invictus can do the same. King might be waiting to see which way they go with Grands Crus.
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who says Invictus can't beat Grands Crus? Have they raced against each other? Didn't Invictus beat both the same horses that Grands Crus did?
They are just assuming aren't they? confusing |