time to add a 2m 4f hurdle grade 1 at the festival

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!    Wait there while I get a rope.

Totally Agree TLU

Just no!!! Oscar Whiskey would be running in it leaving BB at 1/3 or summit stupid, half of the champion field would run in it being scared of the fly. It would probably be a little cracker of a race, but leaving the champion and world hurdles much worse. I know what id prefer.

You only have to look at what the Ryanair has done to the Gold Cup and Champion Chase the last 6 years to  know the answer. New Jewson will do the same to the Arkle and RSA in time.  Ryanair and Jewson should be dropped and replaced with a 2 1/2m chase for novices and second season horses.  Could call it the Cathcart!

You only have to look at what the Ryanair has done to the Gold Cup and Champion Chase the last 6 years to  know the answer.

What????  You're taking a different formbook to me, pal.  All the old naysayers came out against the Festival Trophy but they've gone quiet now.  It's been an excellent addition, as predicted, and has done nothing to harm either the Champion Chase or Gold Cup, also as predicted.

...I also think you'll find the RSA and Arkle are looking pretty tasty this year with the Jewson scheduled too the last time I looked.

None so blind as those that cannot see (Nap).

I LOATHE all the added races, the beauty of having no ''intermediate'' distance races imo was that it brought tactics into play so much more, do you drop a horse back in distance and force the pace, go up in distance and settle it out the back attempting to conserve stamina and beat them for pace etc, it was BRILLIANT

and now it's over...

and they got rid of the best fence too.


sucks

So so wrong headmaster.  Imagine the 2009 Gold Cup with an 8yo Imperial Commander in it!  ALbertas Run too should have been in the last 2 Gold Cups, he was staying on strongly when he won the RSA and just wasn't right the year he tried it.  Now we've got the highest rated 2m chaser in England potentially swerving the champion chase.   Jewson hasn't fully taken hold yet as it still grade 2 but we are already seeing Silviciano Conti looking to avoid a rematch with the Feltham winner.  Utterly ludicrous when you consider the record of Feltham winners in the RSA but there you go.

Well said Notre Dame.  Only change I support is the new conditions for the 4 miler, has improved the standard.  I'd happily go back 2 decades and get rid of the flat race and the gymkhana too.

I think the Ryanair is generally one of the best, most competetive races at the Festival. It and the Jewson are bad from an AP betting point of view, fine from a sporting point of view.

However, chasing is not hurdling and while a 2 1/2 chase is appropriate a 2 1/2 m hurdle would not be.

Imagine the 2009 Gold Cup with an 8yo Imperial Commander in it!. paddy brennan said if imperial commander hadnt run in the ryanair, and was thrown straight into the gold cup that year that hed probably never have won a gold cup!

You're clutching at straws, thieveslikeus.  If Albertas and a 156-rated Imperial Commander, who'd been done 72 lengths in that season's King George, are the best you can come up with there's not much wrong imo.

Maybe ask Jonjo or 'Nige' why they didn't run in the Gold Cup, which they were perfectly entitled too, of course?

The CC and GC still have the weight of history and prestige behind them and will get the horses that should be running in them.....unless they're trained by idiots.

Oh dear headmaster, Imperial Commander ran just as badly in the King George the season he won the Gold Cup so don't be saying he couldn't have challenged for the Gold Cup the year before, of course he could!  Double whammy in KG for him each time of not being fresh, which he absolutely HAS to be, and the track being the wrong direction.   Albertas is a solid 175 horse should have been in the Gold Cup. Might even have won it last year with IC getting injured and the standard dropping as a result.  We might not have the ludicrous ratings inflation amongst staying chasers if there was no Ryanair.  Trainers want a Cheltenham winner, they swerve overhyped horses they are scared of losing to instead of taking them on.   Indeed, it's the fact that the race has been a "success" that is the tragedy!

Too much tweaking has gone on over the last decade or so, and whilst some of it has been beneficial, like the mares' program on the flat, overall I have to disagree about initiating a 20f Grade One hurdle at Cheltenham - after all...that's what Aintree's for!

The elevation to Grade One for the 3M hurdle at Aintree, ENSURES there will NEVER be a meeting between Big Buck's & Hurricane Fly, and that goes for the champions of the future over 2M & 3M, so it's a definite NO for me, and that inconsequential race should be downgraded ASAP!

PS - is there some ruling I'm unaware of that precludes hurdles & chases being run UNDER two miles?

i put up a thread like this last year just to get peoples thoughts. im on the fence and possibly leaning towards keeping it the way it is. however, i think the ryanair is a cracking race and has been a huge success.

I'd get rid of the 3 mile hurdle at Aintree too

I think it's slightly different with the Ryanair though, as the Gold Cup is an extra two and a half furlongs, which means it makes more sense to have an intermediate race. I definitely think there's enough races now, the more there are, the less special Cheltenham winners are, and I think there are enough crap races already.

Would anyone dispute that the upgrading of the all-aged fillies/mares races (listed below) has been a great success for the sport?

Inevitably, there are ALWAYS gonna be weakly contested Group Ones SOMETIMES, but the inception/promotion of these events has greatly enhanced the prospects of keeping 4yo+ fillies in training.

If they don't make the cut against the colts, there is still a real incentive, and without this, mares like Ouija Board, Goldikova, Midday & Snow Fairy may never have remained in training - AND all that just for ONE extra foal per year!

Falmouth Stakes
Matron Stakes
Nassau Stakes
Sun Chariot Stakes
Mares race on last year's Ascot card won by Dancing Rain

Prix D'Astarte (prev. Rothschild)
Prix de l'Opera
Mares Breeders' Cup

There are a few more I'm sure that I've forgotten about, so can any of you guys add to the list?

PS - the Prix Vermeilles was opened to 4yo fillies too, as was the Yorkshire Oaks though I'm not sure of the years - probably within the last decade.

hugh - the rules of racing make 2 m the minimum distance for hurldes and chases.

As for Cheltenham, it does need one more race to make the even 28. I think I'd like a Veterans Chase but some people have suggested a Mares Chase which could also be a good idea.

Re Albertas Run,AP talks as though the Gold Cup is too much for him,and takes him out of his comfort zone.
I think that is bang on having watched the horse and backed him a fair few times.He won a very weak RSA,and his best performances for me have all been over 2 and half m type distances.
He can have things more his own way at that distance against horses that are not Gold Cup class,and thats where AP's thoughts are based listening to him.
IMO he would never win a Gold Cup,unless it was extremely sub standard,and every GC he could have entered has been far from that.

Strontium - I would have assumed that, but it'd be interesting to see a 10/12f hurdle or chase don't you think?

Rules are often tweaked for the benefit of sports, and I was wondering just how 'set in stone' the minimum distance is.

Would I really be alone in wanting to see them race over shorter distances.

30 second sprints on the flat would be a great spectacle too.

Hugh, I don't think I'd want to see 1 mile chases but it would just require a tweak of the rules (and some tracks perhaps), it's not set in stone.

I think they do have 2 1/2 f races on the flat in some countries don't they? (US? Aus?). again not my cup of tea, but then there's far, far too much crddy flat racing already.

(Incdientally, I think there would also be serious safety concerns about jumps races run over effectiveky sprint trips, bith for horses and jockeys).

Every time I see a view of the 10f Newmarket straight, I think it could do with a few obstacles
I think it'd be fantastic!

And yes, there's quarter racing in The States, but you're probably right about the amount of low-grade stuff that it'd attract - nevertheless, the likes of 70 rated handicappers could prove a great success over a 30 second blitz!

Six day festival here we come.  Fucling heretics! 

I think the Cross Country race should be run off level weights as it's The Festival after all, and the handicaps could be run over C&D in November & December.

Strontium - you're right about those safety concerns but pre-health & safety days, it's surprising it was never mooted, as far as I'm aware.

TLU - FOUR days is the maximum it should EVER be, though it's inevitable in the future there will be calls for such heresy as you rightly call it.

When the Gold Cup moves to Saturday, it's an open question whether they will move the 4-day Festival or add the 5th day. They could fill it up with Bumpers and XC races like Punchestown

Dont say that mate,Saturday would totally ruin it all for me.Well not totally,but the thought of it!!
Just hate the idea.

Me too, but I'm sure it will happen in the next 5 years.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

Albertas is a solid 175 horse should have been in the Gold Cup.

Albertas Run in 3m+ non-nov G1s:

'11 King George - P/U 33/1
'09 King George - 6th 25/1
'09 Punchestown - P/U 12/1
'09 Gold Cup - 9th 14/1
'08 King George - 2nd 25/1

Albertas Run in 19-22f non-nov G1s:
'11 Melling - 2nd 11/4
'11 Ryanair - 1st 6/1
'10 Melling - 1st 8/1
'10 Ryanair - 1st 14/1
'10 Ascot Chase - 2nd 13/2

Albertas might even have won it last year (the GC) with IC getting injured and the standard dropping as a result.

yep,says it all.

Headmaster - 2nd in the King George, terrible form that was can see your point.   

Look at it again.

same races where ground is good 23111121 - highest RPR rating was achieved over 3 miles
races where ground is g/s or softer   -  4P393P3624FP - the only good run, his 2nd at Ascot was rated 17lb lower on RPRs than his 2nd over 3m

Horse is ground dependent not distance dependent as the above clearly proves.   So last laugh is on me but I am not so rude as you so won't do a row of smileys to emphasise my point.

How about a 4 mile novice hurdle for amateur riders?

Adding a 2m4f G1 hurdle race is a terrible idea, it will dilute the Champion & World Hurdle races, and detract further from the Aintree festival.

No doubt Mr Gillespie and his chums will think it's a terrific idea, and adopt it at some point in the future.

Thieves,
Yes he is ground dependant,he must have good in the description at least,but no doubt in my mind hes best at around 2 and half,particularly at Cheltenham.
Ive been following this horse since i backed him ante post for the RSA,and yes he stays 3m in particular on good ground,but in the highest class his optimum is not 3m,im confident about that.

No budd, not quite right, he mustn't have soft in the description at all!  Simple as that.  Only time he has ever run on good ground over 3m, since his novice days, he got the highest RPR of his life and that was a rating that was reduced 2pts compared to 1st and 3rd, for reasons that are clear as mud!

Well yes i agree,hes best with no soft at all,but he has acted on good/soft.
Anyway for me his optimum is the Ryannair distance on good ground.

He has only acted on good to soft in the weak RSA and in a race where he was 2nd with an RPR of 154.  More than a stone behind his good ground form.  Only run EVER at 3m on good was that 2nd to Kauto Star, where he got as close as anything else ever did at Kempton in Kauto's 4 peak years.  Think about it.  Proves beyond doubt it is the good ground he needs and not the shorter trip.

I actually like the Ryanair, but a new middle distance hurdle race would be a bad idea. The Stayers is weak enough as it is.

Thieves.
The gold cup is something the owner would absolutely love mate.
They know he cannot win the race.
If the Gold Cup was run over 3m on good ground then they may go for it.

I have thought about it many times and im convinced my opinion is the right one.

Lets just disagree mate.

No worries, I will go with the very clear evidence, you go with your hunch.  Point is, without the existence of the Ryanair we would have found out one way or the other.  With it there is an excuse to duck the issue.  One wonders if Best Mate would have ever tackled the Gold Cup if the Ryanair had existed back then?  I can remember being told he wouldn't stay the Gold Cup trip in his box...

This addition is just a matter of time, but I am not for it. Where will it end! Add a veterans race, a seller, a mares bumper, a lady riders race, race over Saturday and Sunday ... This championship race already exists at Liverpool, as did the Melling Chase, and nothing wrong with that.

Shockster - How about a 4 mile novice hurdle for amateur riders?

I believe there may be a race at Aintree that falls into this category

its not a hunch,its in the formbook.
Anyway just leave it thieves,we will bore everyone.

Back to the subject,
Personally i think the Ryannair is a welcome addition,its provided some good competitive races and good races to have a bet in imo.The Gold Cup dont seem to have suffered in quality because of the race.
Whether that would apply to a hurdle equivalent i really aint sure,but my gut feeling is leave the hurdle scene as it is.

totally agrree with 2.5mile champion race , the ryanair has given us a great addition to the olympics of jump racing. Thus this will allow for other great champions like Oscar Whisky or maybe Mikael D'Haguenet at the middle distance, that maybe can't achieve the same at the other distances. Awaiting the abuse from the know it alls x x the more cheltenham the better

Not abuse tricky just ridicule

What shall we call the 2 m 2f and 2 m 6f hurdles run on the second Tuesday of the Festival?

haha stront. was going to say something similar but stopped myself, roll on the 3m 3f mares only novice hurdle for amateur riders that have been gelded...

totally agree with a grade 1 2m4f hurdle race, they have space on the thursday for an extra race....