Master Minded

although he is running over 2m4f at Aintree this week, I think the long term objective would be the King George, and see how he gets on in that.

If he sees out the trip well I think they'd be tempted for the Gold Cup and bypass the Ryaniar; but with Kauto staying in training I don't know whether Clive Smith would want them to run against each other.

I think the King George performance will have a big impact on his Festival target.  I personally wouldn't be taking 16's a year before the race though, but if he does line up in the Ryanair that would be a massive price

Don't think its the trip but the ground, and the obvious fact that hes declined a bit.

Albertas is a different horse this time of year.
Think MM is a possibilty for the Ryanair,but as been said it all depends on the King George.
Dont think Kauto will have anything to do with it,they know his Gold Cup days are gone now.

he is been aimed at the king george next season

MM is completely gone - end of story & now looks tripless to me as pace has gone & dubious stayer at best.

Think his days of winning the QM are gone,but enough evidence from last season to suggest a step up in trip could be rewarded.

I am never less than baffled by the barking theories which so called good judges come up with. This horse is out of the very top drawer on soft ground over 2 miles. He is ground and trip dependent. It really is that simple. If he doesn't get cut then he is much diminished and at the top level he simply doesn't stay the extra half mile let alone another mile in a King George.

The way you are talking he has never won top races on anything but soft ground,he has.
The simple fact is that he now needs everything in his favour over 2m,cos he aint as good as he was.
And connections seem to agree,hence the trying at further.

Worth a try if you're Clive Smith now that Kauto won't be winning any more King George's and MM won't be winning any more Champion Chases.

I still think he's worth a try over 2 1/2-3 m [;)]

Any thoughts Cherwell?

King George a no brainer now. After that is anyone's guess

Ive just thrown a couple of quid on him for the Gold Cup at 5/2...

Well done anyone who backed Master Minded today.

I wouldn't be getting carried away with talk of the King George though.

Alberta's Run nor Kalahari King were ever  going at any stage in that race today and the entire field was under pressure with more than 1/2 mile to run.
Right now Hen Knight couldn't train a pig to be dirty, Tartak has finished 15 lengths closer to Alberta's than he did at Cheltenham and Nicky Henderson's horses have all had way too much racing already.

As good as it looked the race stank to the high heavens and he'll find taking on trained, up to the minute, horses like Long Run and Captain Chris a in the King George a whole different ball game.

Then you have the problem of the trip. Getting 2m4f in a bad race is along way off getting 3 miles in a King George where you are guaranteed a fast end to end gallop.

Fair comments,none of the others ran their race.

Having said that.MM was very impressive.

Never unhappy in the least to be forced to eat humble pie. He certainly stayed today. Who knows had it been soft he may have won easier?

He always has been a MONSTER and people keep saying he's finished. He's got a couple years in him yet. I just think that for some reason he's just lost a bit of youth and speed a bit early compared to some horses. It's probably because he was making such big efforts as a youngster. It's great to see him doing well over further. He obviously has a bit to prove at 3 miles though. If he can it would certainly make some good races in the future with the likes of Cpt. Chris and LR in the KG.

well done AS

backed him at cheltenham but not as aintree.

Great performance the other day but still not convinced he will be beating Long Run, MM may well get 3 miles but this years GC winner is the real deal and would probably have won today IMO. Ryanair is still the way to go for me.

Hands up - I was quite impressed!

I am not sure what he truly beat in terms of challenging for a KG but he could only thrash those behind him.

As I had said all season, he's not fast enough for 2 miles at championship pace. But once stepped up he showed his worth. I opposed him at Cheltenham and backed him at Aintree.

This is the exact reason he beat Voy Por Ustedes so far in 08, Voy Por was no longer a 2 miler and hence couldn't live with Master Minded over that trip.

He seemed to get 2m4f so well that he has a decent chance in the King George.

Think the way he went out like a light the first time he ran at Aintree led many to think he was just a 2 miler and nothing else. Still don't see him being a threat to Long Run yet though.

Like a lot of French breds he has lost a bit of speed and is no longer a 2 miler. Whether he will be top class over 3m is another matter. Personally i have my doubts as Long Run is an exceptional young horse who could probably beat Master Minded over any distance. But the 2 and a half mile division looks like Master Minded`s for the taking as he looks head and shoulders above the rest.

Arkle he blundered 2 out that day in 2008 which winded him. Also stamina comes with age, he's lost a bit of speed but gained stamina. Hence why he was so impressive at aintree, also he was racing the weak division of middle distance chasers.

Long Run is an exceptional young horse who could probably beat Master Minded over any distance

In now way shape or form would Long Run have beaten Master Minded at Aintree over 2m4 the other day.  Master Minded oozes class, and if he can settle and get 3m he'll have a massive chance in the King George.  I'm made up he won the other day, it adds so much debate to the King George now

I think you are getting a bit carried away Wellchief. Long Run had a hard race at Cheltenham which is why he missed Aintree. A fresh Long Run would beat Master Minded over any distance. I agree it does make the King George a bit more interesting but i wouldn`t expect Master Minded to get within 5 lengths of Long Run in the King George.

I agree that at the King George Long Run would easily be favourite against Master Minded; but over 2 and a half miles Master Minded would crush Long Run.  It's a pointless argument though because it'll never happen.

I know the owners of Long Run mentioned the Ascot Chase as a possible prep for Long Run ahead of the Gold Cup. So there is a chance it could happen.

Well if thats the case I'd definitely fancy Master Minded to beat Long Run

If Long Run couldn't win a Paddy Power off 158, he wouldn't get close to Master Minded if he replicated his Aintree run.

I still don't think they'd run Long Run in the Ascot Chase.  Why change the King George as his pre Cheltenham run as it clearly worked this year.  Just need to do exactly the same but swap the Paddy Power with the Betfair Chase

Straight after he won at Aintree I immediately took the 25s for next year's Gold Cup, as this logic is sound. He'll start off with something like that Ascot 2m4f race and then go to the King George.

You have to ask yourself what lies after after that? If he goes to Cheltenham he won't run in the QM and I think it is very unlikely that Clive Smith will want him to run the Ryanair. Kauto surely can't run in another Gold Cup and hold any sensible chance so this means that Master Minded will be given his go.

I can remember way back when he was at his prime over 2m, that they always fancied him to be at least as good if not better over 3m in the future. Kauto stopped his move up in distance for a few years while he held his form, but this looks like the right time to me for Master Minded to try his luck at 3m and a bit further now.

As long as he's alive and in fair form, Master Minded has to run in the Gold Cup next year if he runs at Cheltenham.

MM would be exceptionally heavily raced for a Gold Cup winner. Typically, they win when making their 7th-13th chase start (even Best Mate, 3rd time round). Even Long Run's got quite a few miles on the clock already, and it will be interesting to see if his youth overcomes the toll of lots of races.

Wellchief - the difference between this year and next might be the gap between the King George and the Gold Cup - 2 months this year, but usually closer to 3. They may feel Long Run comes on for racing? Robert Waley Cohen has said next year they'll go Betfair > KG > Argento/Aon (were the two I thought he mentioned) > Gold Cup. But then right after the Gold Cup he said Long Run might run in France/Ireland at the end of this season, so who knows what will happen?

You never know but I'd say the Gold Cup is pie in the sky for Master Minded. Probably the fastest 2 miler ever to win a Gold Cup was Dessie or some might say Kauto but not many who show amazing 2 mile speed ever get 3m2f round Cheltenham. Don't forget master Minded was said to be the fastest 2 miler since Dunkirk.

The Gold Cup isn't a race I would be backing Ante Post in as it's a completely new cast next season. Long Run won a Gold Cup against 2 horses both of whom are way past their best and next year they will be replaced by up and coming chasers like Time For Rupert, Captain Chris and a few others. Imperial Commander I would imagine will bounce back as well having run way below his best this season.

That's quite a recipe to be thinking Gold Cup for Master Minded who will no doubt be dropped back to 2 miles by PN no matter what he might hint at. There's good prize money to be had early doors over 2 miles and Master Minded won't go off chasing rainbows until he's picked up a couple of those. Then I imagine he might go for the Ryanair and not the King George.

Don't forget Burton Port and Weapons Amnesty who both beat Long Run in last year's RSA and missed this year's Gold Cup through injury.

If Burton Port couldn't win a Hennessy of a featherweight he's unlikely to be winning a Gold Cup but I do like Weapon's Amnesty who is as tough as old boots. I wouldn't be writing off another Irish fella either if it came up soft which is well overdue. Pandorama could be well worth backing at odds of around 50/1 to lay off nearer the time. Soft ground and another few wins would see him go off 8-12/1 I would imagine.

RSA horses will be interesting as well

Bostons Angel seems to have an attitude that says you aint beating me!!
Tough and genuine,value imo

Rondetto - I fully agree Weapons Amnesty is the pick of the pair. I'm really looking forward to him coming back and really hope his injury hasn't done lasting damage. He'd be a steal for the Hennessey if he runs (off 152ish?). The form of the 2010 RSA was extraordinary.

Burton Port did amazingly well to finish where he did in the Hennessey given he clattered the cross fence 5(ish) out. On a line through Denman, he'd have about 19 lbs to make up with Long Run. Given he's only had one run outside novice company (the Hennessey) that's not impossible, though it is, perhaps, unlikley. He also looks like a really tough stayer with a good attitude, so the GC will suit him (probably more than Newbury).

I have the impression that this years RSA wasn't that great so I'm more interested in last years, though it's very hard to judge until they get in to open races and the form is tested.

Agree on Weapons Amnesty, he'd have hacked up in this year's RSA, even easier than he did last years.

Maybe.
I do agree though that WA is a real challanger for the Gold Cup next year,just hope he stays injury free.
As for the RSA horses,best wait and see how they turn out next season before dismissing imo.

This years RSA was a poor bunch IMO.

Whys that?

Because the best young chaser in the country never ran a message. It would be foolhardy to write of Time For Rupert he's the business and will give the best a thing or two to think about next season.

Don't forget Long Run has beaten Kauto Star twice and Denman of course but that does not tell us anything for definite.

If they have gone back as far as I think then Long Run has beaten very little. Denman gave us no clue perhaps Kauto will if and when he runs in Ireland.

I really like Captain Chris and could see him winning the King George and maybe even the Gold Cup. I'd also bet Time for Rupert will take all the beating in the Gold Cup and Long Run's reign could come to a sudden halt very easily.

Long Run only 6 - likely to continue improving for a while yet.TFR and Captain Chris both a year older.Like both horses but facts are he's achieved considerably more than either and is a year younger.

Is he though? Nicky H wasn't sure at the sandown preview this yearwhen he said he feels LR is close to his peak.

LR is also very heavily raced for a 6 yo - already ~10 chases. Most GC winning chasers have only run 6-12 times (including Best Mate all 3 times) and he'll be over that by the next Gold Cup. We don't  know if LR's young age will enable him to stay at the top for more races than is usual. Personally, I'd be surprised if he is still at the very top come 2013.

Fair points but I defy anybody to convince me that he did n't improve between the Paddy Power and the King George and then again between the King George and the Gold Cup. Certainly would n't want to be opposing him purely on the basis that 2012 Gold Cup is his 13th,14th,15th chase - those stats are there to be broken - I recall many on here stating he could n't win the Gold Cup because he did n't act on the track when he'd put up two perfectly creditable efforts there (albeit both on the Old Course).

I can see both Captain Chris and TFR making up into top class staying chasers and if they do, I'll be forced to re-evaluate.

2013 is a different matter, partly because it's so far away and partly because there's a whole host of very good novice hurdlers from this year who will be out of their novice season by then so I reckon competition will be tougher.

Finally, though he's not a chaser, Big Buck's has the same sire and I don't see too many signs of regression there as an 8yo.

Also fair points. It's so exceptional to have such a high class chaser at such a young age, I just don't know how to judge the balance between age and race weariness.

I agree that he'll be a major contender for the Gold Cup in 2012 (which will probably be his 14th chase start). Those stats aren't set in stone. Kauto's 2nd Gold Cup was his 21st start and LR might be in his class. I also agree LR improved massively between the Paddy Power and the Gold Cup and could well find a few more pounds of improvement (though surely not another 20 like this season!). Even so, it's rare for a horse to win more than one Gold Cup (only 5 have since the war), presumably because it's an ultra competetive race.

I guess I was trying to say two things really - 1. Just because Long Run is only six, one shouldn't assume he'll be winning Gold Cups for another 4 or 5 years. 2. It's going to be fascinating to find out how much he can achieve having already done so much, so young.

Diamond Harry appears to have been totally discounted....alright he was rank at chelt 10 but I wouldn't totally discount him based on that.

YEAH! WHATEVER! MASTER MINDED HAS COMPLETELY GONE HAS HE???? WHAT A MUPPET.
HE'S THE DEAL!

Bostons Angel-Value for Gold Cup next year imo

Is this year's Gold Cup form looking a bit ropey afer the Aintree Bowl and Punchestown Gold Cup, or is it just a case of Denman and Kauto not getting over a very hard race at Cheltenham?

Its extremely ropey in my opinion.Both horses a long way past there best and i thought they had long run cooked 3 out.Long run wouldnt have seen what way the 2008 Denman or the 2009 Kauto star went in my opinion

the horse that impressed me most last season was captain chris the way he travelled in the arkle had class written all over it and the form looks very good ,although i was all over long run for the gold cup the form is looking suspect kauto looked to have him in trouble 2-3 fences out and it may prove that long run just beat a field  chasers well past their prime he may be a bit flattered by his rating.

i believe time for rupert to also be a shade  overated o.k he is a very usefull horse and he did finish 2nd in a world hurdle but something had to and big bucks apart the staying hurdle division is  weak imo. the problem   is how p.hobbs will campaign captain chris will he go for the champion chase or gold cup route ? my hunch is that the gold cup will be his target and wishfull thinking will possibly drop back to 2m , but trying to second guess trainers is an expensive game . given the regard connections have always held captain chris the king george  gold cup route  must be top of the agenda and he looks to have bags of scope for improvement .its great to get a big ante post price for a fancy for festival races but the market is volatile and fraught with danger remember binocular who would have forseen that ?  that i usually wait till the nr no bet comes in about a week before cheltenham . there will also be others not mentioned that will show their hand in the next 6-8 months so there is a lot to look forward to good luck