FAST GROUND AT CHELTENHAM

when make a stand won the CHAMPION HURDLE in 3 mins 48.4 seconds,it was like a road,these are novices ffs,and have just ran as fast a champion hurdler,unreal.

Good to soft places are probably in the bar................

who are yuo saying for race 2?

Hand timed,but im not far out.

who likes firm ground?

Sea the STARS

What race is sea the stars running in.
This is a joke,its a total farce,that ground has never been soft at any stage in the last weeks,when it was APPARENTLY good to soft,it was good.
The punters have been stitched up like kippers again,they must have broken the track record for novices.

last 2 weeks(insert)

ruby said the ground was riding dead

is there an official time?

nicholls just said its riding on the slow side

247lol, think you're talkinh b ollocks mate

No Supreme could have been run in sub 3.55 on dead ground

unless hes mucked the distances around

have they said it was 3 55 zilzal?

Official time 3-52-16

I made it quicker than that......

It aint dead unless he shortened the supreme course

Thankyou zilzal,its was timed at 3 mins 52.2 secs,and you made a very good point.
nickf**kface you are a total plonker,you are a stupid sheep that listens to all the b**locks like the rest of the flock.
Now im telling you as a 100% FACT thats its fast,dont worry if the top of the turf is chopping up a bit,bacause Claisse has watered,so its loose on top.
But the times say it is lightening fast,hence why Captain chris just won,it loves it.
And if you spent a bit more time working things out instead of listening to all the s**t these tw**s tell you,you might have backed the arkle winner like i did
Have a nice day,i will be[;)]

ps,where the f**k they got 2 mins 52.2 secs from,god only knows,because i dont.

sorry 3 mins 52.2 secs

timed it twice split seconds either side of 3:51 dont start timing until the tapes go up

Just posted this on my forum. Noel Meade has just said; "No excuses, just wasnt good enough. Paul said ground was soft, very soft in places and that should suit Pandorama" WTF?????????????????????????????????

if so id like to walk the course with a pedometer

dont know you 247lol but you sound like a right twallophead

walsh, nicholls, meade and king all said ground riding slowly, but you know best

catain chris a 2 and a half miler, managed to win, just confirms it

it's not FAST ground, it's just good ground obviously. its obviously not too slow because of the supreme time

Times dont lie,simple,it is FAST,when will you learn,dont listen to all these lying trainers and jockeys bull**it.
I cant see how i was 4 seconds out,but there you go,you cant believe any of these guys,i will time it again later though.
Whatever it was in the first,its bloody quick out there

fater than any champion hurdle since Istabraq i reckon

3.51.7 for the ARKLE

They are starting these races appallingly against the Rules at a full gallop.

This is one reason for the faster times.

WIZARD,CONJURE YOURSELF UP A FEW BRAIN CELLS AND STOP TALKING SH*TE

all i am saying, and i think its fair enough, is why would all the trainers and jockeys be wrong. what would be in it for them to say its much slower than it is....it's moronic to suggest a conspiracy.

so, forgive me for taking nicholls and walsh's word over some bloke on a forum, but i reckon it's open to debate

ARKLE 3 MINS 51.57 SECONDS,FFS,the standards 3 mins 52 seconds.
How much more evidence do you need.

lol 247!!!!

So they will go the same speed from the tapes ata walk than at a full gallop, will they?

Go off and abuse yourself rather than other people, I'm sure you've plenty of practice.

Well i have to abuse dope heads like you ,because havent got the basic understanding that times tell you the state of the going,irrespective of this sh*t your going on about"running full pace into the tapes".
FFS,you on something?,Hurricane fly was a mile and a quarter listed winner on the flat,FLAT HORSE,Captain chris is not a 2 1/2 miler,it won over 2 miles at kempton ffs,so its obviously got speed,and 2 mile 1 furlong at chel'ham,so its got stamina as well.
SPEED AND STAMINA,ooohh ohhh,hold on,yeh thats right,the 2 things you need for an arkle,DOH.

There are time records in other sports from standing starts and flying starts. Guess which ones are always faster?

HTH.

Anyone time the champion??

247 lol, i have changed my view about you, you're not a twallophead, that's far too kind, you're a total scroat. utterly clueless, pathetically insulting, one of these little men who feels the need to shout out loud and impugn anyone who has the gall to disagree. clot....

so what do we think guys regarding the ground based on today's times

well its obvious they would be wise to keep watering..otherwise there could be dangerously fast ground by thurs and fri. struck me as good ground, complicated by the fact the times were v fast and the jockeys said it was riding dead

FFS nickf**kface,there can only be one twallophead & scroat on here,now this always annoys me,but im going to do it anyway.
well its obvious they would be wise to keep watering..otherwise there could be dangerously fast ground by thurs and fri. struck me as good ground, complicated by the fact the times were v fast and the jockeys said it was riding dead
Now wtf kind of comment is that?,are you completely insane?,its blatantly obvious that someones lying here,and i think ill trust the times.
I cant believe that AL FEROF,3 mins 52.1 secs was faster than HURRICANE FLY,3 mins 53.71 secs,carrying only 3 lbs less,and both were faster than binocular last year,and i thought it rode pretty quick then.
Bensalem also won in a quicker time than last years winner,by .66 of a second carrying 6lb more,and last years arkle was run in 3 mins 52.2 secs compared to this years 3 min 51.68.
So i think we can emphatically say its riding fast,soft ground horses like dunguib and ghizao had no chance.
So lets forget all this twaddle about what trainers,jockeys and Simon Claisse say,because they are blatantly lying.

Timeform review tonite rate the grount at BEST

Good

Or even good to firm

As they say ,times indicate that

Good job lucky,its fast,so that will be a massive line going through a lot of SOFT going plodders tonight,makes life easier,flats breds is what we want,like hurricane fly.

flat breds 

http://www.attheraces.com/cheltenham/article.aspx?hlid=515244&lid=news&raceid=&title=Harrington+has+no+ground+concerns&ref=Cheltenham+-+News&nav=&sub=&day=Tue

really weird isnt it, latest story on at the races.....

all the jockeys and trainers keep saying its good to soft. i just love this mass conspiracy amongst all jockey and trainers to say its soft of good when really its lightning fast. brilliantly organised conspiracy, i applaud them

what a load of old b ollocks

let's be clear, it's good ground.....not soft, not fast, just good ground

sorry nick i'd have to disagree and say its deffo good/firm. Clerk always says its softer than it is here to pls the BHA.

mightyman i know that, i know that the official description is always softer than reality because they dont want to be blamed for loads of horse deaths, but what hasnt been explained is why all the jockeys and trainers are saying it having walked and ridden on it...

Well i think you are grossly outnumbered here nickf**kface,the going is favouring the horses that want better ground,which means its on the fast side of good,but to the eye it might softer,because the top of the turf which has been watered,is cutting up a bit,but underneath its like a road.
So is claisse doesnt water,than we can expect some pretty quick times tomorrow,even if he does,its not going to help anything that might want cut,end of.
Look at the horses that wanted cut today,stuffed,and if anyone mentions Bensalem,then look back to its run on good,beaten 3 lengths by the mighty mare Quevega,giving it 23lbs.

appear softer(insert)

well, i agree there is an argument for it being fast...but without wishing to repeat myself i am just confused as to why all the jockeys thought otherwise

and to be honest i am not sure al ferof or captain chris are fast ground horses, or quevega for that matter...

anyway, claisse will have to do something, or we could have carnage without more rain by friday

247 - 23lbs?

you are correct,long day,it was 5 lbs,apologies,the mares allowance.

Apparently light rain possible tonight,but dont think it will affect the state of the ground,but heavy rain showers forecast for thursday night and friday day.

Well the MINIMAL amount of rain Cheltenham certainly appeared to have an effect on times foe Wednesday.
Although Claisse told us it was so minimal it was not measurable,im trying to work out how the champion chase winner ran 3.22 seconds slower than yesterdays arkle winner,
3 mins 54.92 secs compared to yesterdays 3 mins 51.7 secs.
And just as every time from Tuesdays racing was faster than last years,every time was slower than last years today.
Someone care to explain or have any ideas,i just cant see how thats possible,unless of course Claisse is bulls****ing us again as to exactly how much rain did come down.
In fact,a lot of todays times were a lot slower than last year,but it is still favouring horses that want better ground,but any rain could change that.
I really am at a loss to explain whats going on here,but unless we receive significant rain,ill still be going with the better ground horses.

Claisse watered last night imo only explanation

Well ive checked every media source,including the useless CHELTENHAM websight,which is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard,never updated to give you the latest,bloody unprofessional,and no mention of any watering.

they lie they do it all the time at the major festivals

Christ knwows what happens during the night at Cheltenham I remember last year on the Friday it went from geniune good, good to soft ground in the Triumph to Heavy in the Albert and Bartlett after a little rain.
Now either the track cant take 2 days of racing and opens up really bad or there is some sort of mysterious watering going on, cos for no rain to come today and the difference of going is simply amazing

2 possible reasons

1 - they are under pressure by the bha to ensure "safe" ground
2 - its suits the bookies if there is uncertainty over ground

this happens at aintree/ascot on the flat as well

SJ,good reply,it might be the track cant take the pounding its getting and really does open up bad,and with that shower they had,it really has made a difference to the times,but not enough for horses wanting cut.
Check for yourself todays times compared to last year,i might post them after,or if someone else has time,maybe they'll do it,stunned.[:o]

I mean weve had the 2 novice races running faster than the championship races,ie,arkle/champion chase,supreme novice/champion hurdle.
Unheard of,wts's going on here.

For me it was clearly good going yesterday perfect. Be it was visible with the divets they were kicking up it was softer. The times showed that. Last year like I say the Triumph was at worst good to soft, then after a shower it is desperate. I'll be looking at Pando and Denman for Friday with the expected rain

Although the original headline of this thread may be misleading,what i was actually trying to say is,anything wanting cut hasnt a cat in hells chance,you only have to look at the rsults to see that.
Weve been waiting for the rain since last week,it may come down for gold cup day,like last year,but dont hold your breath.

Im at a loss as well. the track seems if it cant take racing. It may ride a bit better on the nw course tomorrow but with rain f/c on Thurs night/Friday morning i wouldnt want to be on anything that didnt handle some cut on friday

Kauto goes for a big walk in the market imo

I think we can safely ignore Kauto star this year,hes obviously not the horse he was,much the same as Masterminded,but in his case,i cannot believe he was backed into favourite,ALL his best form is with cut,not lay of the day,lay of the CENTURY,it had absolutely no chance.
Kauto WILL not win,fact,and i doubt Denman has much chance either,so you only have 12 other runners,shouldnt take long to find a value bet with a good shout.

if there is a lot of rain pandorama will go off at 6 or 7s

Right,the very latest met office forecast,low level cloud tonight followed by sunny intervals tomorrow.
Thursday night is light rain with heavy showers Friday daytime.
If it rains as predicted,pandorama will trade a lot shorter than its current 14 on betfair,maybe not 6/1 or 7/1,but you never know.
All the weather sites agree with this forecast,but as we all know,they often get it wrong,how much do they get paid?,the only job you can **** it up virtually every day and still get paid.

Zilzal - he was waterted the New Course more than the Old Course - I'm not sure it will ride better.

Latest,expect a big change in the going for gold cup day,theres a huge band of rain moving in from Ireland.the forecast is heavy rain for a number of hours from early Friday morning.

Some of the horses like Menorah and Time For Rupert, that have been put away after running well on slow ground before Xmas, unlike Best Mate who adored good fast ground, have a preference for good/soft imo and have struggled for pace after not running for so long and on totally different ground. Hen Knight was quite safe in doing what she did because Matey loved the ground there other than his final win on really dead ground.

Claisse now has an unacceptable say in what the ground will be, the watering is purely at his whim and fancy without any specifics he should stick to other than safe ground which can range from very slow to quick. Trainers putting their horses away need to know they have a preference for good imo or they are risking what we are seeing with a lot of them either not going the pace or not finishing their races. Losing interest in Chelts because of Claisse with his shades he knows he can play God there.

Kauto has a preference for quick ground so is a candidate for being put away imo though he is probably over the hill now.

Captain Chris loved the quicker ground compared to what he has been running on, a better Hobbs candidate for being put away in the future than Menorah which was a mistake.

After reading this thread I am still confused. What ground dependent horses are we looking for today? Simon says it's Good Gd/Sft in places.

Right enjbenjy,you emphatically want horses that prefer good or good to firm going,theyre on the new course today,and Simon Claisse has reported it to be quicker than the old course.
Back to some earlier comments,Ruby walsh reported the ground to be to FAST for Masterminded(well i knew that),and Barry geraghty said it was on the DEAD side for Big Zeb,.
Which just goes to prove what i had said earlier,jockeys,trainers and Claisse are putting us away on the state of the ground.
It was very quick the first day,but no idea how all the times were so much slower on the second day,apart from a very good comment earlier saying the track cant take to much racing,which obviously needs looking at,some of the times are truely baffling.

With regards to slower times yesterday would that have anything to do with the air density conditions.
Cold & dank/misty yesterday surely takes more effort to push thro than a finer warmer day as per tuesday.

Well i think by the time we put all the possible reasons together and come up with a credible answer,we'll all be awarded diplomas in how to assess racecourse goings.[;)]

Noble Prince,won a listed on good,3rd in a group 2 at Longchamp on good,oh yeh,and by MONTJEU.
If i ever here anyone ranting about this sire or any other sires stats again,you know what your going to here from me [>o]
The first time this horse encounters this faster going over jumps,and he has his best ever performance,think thats emphatically answered enjbenjy's question.

time for the first race?

It was the same last year then a little downpour on the Friday and it turns desperate, tomorrow is gonna be very intresting if we get the overnight rain

247lol, supreme was 0.10 slower than standard, champion was over a second slower than standard, bensalem was 3 secs slower than standard, sizing australia was 1.2 secs below standard, quevega was 10 secs below standard and divers 9 seconds only captain chris was faster than standard. it wasnt fast ground on tuesday.....sort your head out ffs. it was good, good to soft in places, exactly as claisse said. bet you think they never landed on the moon ffs

Haaa,think we've moved on fron that part of the discussion,what we needed to know was who the ground was favouring,and it most definitely favoured those wanting better ground(faster).
Even though the times were slower on day 2,it still favoured those horses,as does the new course today.

fair enough petal

Think the reason we get worked up here,is that most of us know that virtualyy every horse will have a going preference,and all of us have been stitched up with false going descriptions on many occasions.
The week before Cheltenham Claisse was saying soft,but as pointed out,they had'nt had any rain for days,and watering will have little effect,it wont get in deep enough.
Buena Vista wins the Pertemps again,its FAST,absolutely no doubt after that result.

Well you will love this one,it just gets better.
The jockeys are all coming back saying it's good ground with a few dead patches and therefore I am leaving the ground as it was on Thursday, although some rain is forecast for the morning," Claisse said on Thursday.
What was buena vista doing then when he ran under standard over 3 miles?playing hopscotch to avoid the g/s patches,its hilarious,this is meant to be a JUMPS festival,not a bl**dy derby meeting,3 horses that won last year win again,which just goes to show that the majority buy jumps horses,but they have no chance on that ground,why bother turning up.

The standard times are supposed to be achievable on good ground by decent horses.
This combined with what the jocks say suggests the ground is good rather than fast.

Whatever it is,its all the ones that prefer good or faster that are winning again,not exactly PROPER jumpers ground is it,so who are they trying to appease here.

0.02 RAIN OVERNITE
dRY NOW

bACK FAST GROUND HOSSES

The ground has been fast totally different to the rest of the season. If your horse doesnt like it quick waste of time.

Well one known fella won't mind it one bit and if he can just run within 7lbs of his old form he'll leave them all for dead. He couldn't could he?

I mean of course Kauto Star who Ruby hasn't quite given up on yet. In fact the last I heard is he thinks he's as well as ever if not as fast.

Big Buck's got 3 cheers! Cheltenham will need a new roof if Kauto wins

So no overnight rain, this should be intresting

I'm wary - Meade has gone from deciding at 1pm whether he will run to deciding at 9am that Pandorama will run. Hmmmmmmm makes you wonder

Going stick report is the fastest ive seen for a long while at the festival, its 8.0 at 9.00, hes called 8.1 good to firm in the past.

Pandorama could be the owner insisting that he runs, who knows

ive a few scenarios lined up either way

hope all are having a great chelt

will update thoughts on the Chelt thread on the politics forum after the triumph

Have to feel for Meade/Carberry. 2008 Festival was the slowest for a long time when they needed it like today, for the mercurial Harchibald! Now they want 2008-like ground and it's a road.

Festival over,and although ill concede it was good on the first 2 days,and possibly good on the Thursday,the friday was without doubt good to firm,5 times inside standard and a course record in the gold cup,albeit probably the best gold cup ever.
3 gold cup winners,one of which was a multiple king george winner,the 2010 king george winner,the 2008 arkle winner and the 2011 irish hennessy gold cup winner.
Advice for 2012,dont back horses wanting any cut ante post,stick to horses with sires that had won group 1 races on the flat or french bred horses,they have totally dominated this years festival.
There was in fact 8 french bred winners,i think im right in saying,the same amount as 2010.
Ignore what Claisse might or might  not be doing as regards watering,it will have no baring on the going,if he ever announces he is watering,then you can be 100% certain that it will suit horses that want quicker ground,FACT.
Ignore the weather forecasts of the profesionals,they havent got a clue,they were forecasting rain before the meeting even started,they hardly saw a drop.
Ignore idiots quoting stats,Montjeu it had been noticed,hadnt had 1 winner in i think it was 44 attempts,he now has 2,hurricane fly and noble prince,lesson?horses win races not stats.

247LOL
iN 2008 he watered quoted it as gd to sft
Yet we have a champion hurdle katchit with a strong pace  run around 15 seconds slower than Hurrican Fly.
It was clearly soft ground & good ground horses didnt have a prayer.
I think this year was very similar to WAr of Attritions gold cup think 2006? with the ground quickening as the meet went on.

Whilst he seems to have a problem quoting the ground as it is. this year I thought he played a blinder with his watering & I would far rather see a cheltenham festival run on decent ground than overwatered slop.
Fantastic racing where the best horses came out on top & I havent heard too much of horses injured due to the ground.

ok,fair dues,couple of misquotes from me there as regards the watering,but as regards the injuries,tendonitus(china rock)broken blood vessel,(imperial commander & weird al).
Going responsible?may well never prove that one,but interesting all the same.

But remember geoff m,im good,but not perfect,just right 99% of of the time [;)]

2008 watered eh?mmmm,backhander job or just clueless?.