Why so quiet about Master Minded?

give him one run before christmas....miss the game spirit ....and hopefully he turns up at the festival in the same form he was in for the game spirit.

Ive heard he will go to Ascot in a couple of weeks.

Sorry should read in November.

couple of weeks is november.

His box has been taken by tataniano. Think that says it all.

^ Didn't know this but don't think we should necessarily read too much into it!

Tataniano seems to be the popular choice to rise to the top of the two-mile division this season but he wouldn't be for me at this stage. Take Osana out of the Aintree race (assuming he ran below his best) and I'm not sure how strong that form really is. Obviously has bags of potential but couldn't be a value bet in my mind at the moment.

[>o] get tataniano out of his box. no way mm would be losing to suntini. i hope he gets back to his best this year. i really did my bollocks on him and long run last year(thank fcuk i backed binocular). if he is back to his best i don't think there is any better sight in racing than master minded flying over fences in full swing.

hes unbeatable wen on song and got bit of cut int he ground

Massively over rated horse that has had his limitations exposed time and time again, imo - but for some reason people would rather evaluate his ability on one dubious performance when all his rivals hated the ground, instead of every other run in his career...

dont be a fool . hes won 2 champion chases at least 1 tingle creek and nicholls ses him as the 2nd most talented horse hes ever trained

Dan, my opinion is that the first QM win was in horrible ground that none of his rivals acted in, and it made him look like a superstar.

This scared off all the credible opposition for a season - he beat no less than 10 yr old Well Chief and Petit Robin to win his second QM, and Tidal Bay to win his Tingle Creek. Voy Por, who would have been a fantastic bet to beat him in that second QM, imo, ran in the Ryanair to avoid him.

Since that first QM win all evidence has been screaming out that that victory was massively over rated imo - Voy Por would have beaten him even at two miles at Aintree imo, Big Zeb would have beaten him in Ireland had he not virtually fallen at the last imo, the veteran Well Chief saw him off at Cheltenham in November last year, and he wasn't sighted when he finally ran up against some genuinely top class two mile chasers in this year's QM.

I understand why everyone wants to think that this horse is one of the all time greats, but personally I really don't think he is - in fact I don't think he would have beaten many of the QM winners of the past twenty years, even at his best.

Whatever your opinion of the above, he's always a horse to oppose imo, as the hype always goes before the evidence when it comes to this horse, which almost always makes him bad value as a betting proposition imho..

here is a horse who on the 9th february 2008 ran in the game spirit chase on gd to soft ground and beat the reigning champion chaser by 5 lenghts on just his 3rd start on british soil . then a month later ran in the champion chase on good to soft ground and beat the same horse by 19 lenghts in 1 of the best performances you will ever see. then the horse went to aintree and was obviously a blatant non stayer. he returned on the 6th decemeber 2008 and ran in the tingle creek on good to soft ground and beat arkle winner tidal bay by ten lenghts in another fantastic performance. he then went to ascot for the victor chandler chase and won by 16 lenghts on the same ground. he then returned to cheltenham to defend his crown and duly won by 7 lenghts. how you can say a horse of this class is over rated is astonishing. this horse obviously needs cut int he ground to perform. absolute suicide if people are going to write off this monster. and hes versatile in terms of how he has to be ridden . ap mccoy has often spoke of getting a feel off master minded that hes never had off any other horse

Millhouse, may I suggest you go to the Betfair Paul Nicholls column and read his "The best piece of work I have ever seen" article.

Master Minded is a great horse, and one that if he's firing, nothing would (or will) get near him.

I also suspect there is another superstar performance in him yet.

Lee, if there is you will have my money...

No problem Millhouse, that's why I love this game, it's all about opinions.

Good luck with your punting.

tidal bay was at the top oif his game imo in the tingle and voy por was a fantastic horse who just couldnt live with master minded. also master minded is a better horse these days when nice and fresh . and ure talking of his beating by weklll chief in the connaught last year as credible when master minded fractured a rib during the race but u failed to point that out

Definitely Lee - good luck to you too, and you Dan...

over rated . why does every great horse and performance have to be over rated? the best 2 mile chaser ever of course IMO

maybe a slightly biased opinion there masterminded haha!

I think if the breathing op does what it sometimes can we may see him back to grade one level, but personally I dont think we will ever see him when he was real top class. (First QM)

Best horses arent determind by the best piece of work they did.
I agree with Millhouse MASSIVLY over rated horse.
A good horse but as with most thses days given way to high a rating. it seems no mater what a horse beats now its going to get a better mark than some of teh greats of teh last 10 years.

It seems that consistent victories (and one astonishing one, beating the reigning Champion by 19 lengths, the third 16 lengths futher away) aren't enough for some people.

Okay 'great' and 'the greatest' are bandied around like confetti and are usually the precursor to a good old meaningless debate over a few pints, but over-rated??

I just don't get where his detractors are coming from.

Dont know about MM being overrated,but it does seem that Big Zeb is underrated.Real good winner last season and see no reason why he should not win it again.Better horse than MM last season and imo will prove to be again this season.

Master Minded was a very good horse on the day he won the first QM but none of his subsequent form was quite that good. 90% of chasers come up to a peak for one really high class run but never reproduce it. Only the very best can maintain that level for 2 or 3 seasons.

Agree none of his subsequent form was as good as his first CH CH win - personally I've never seen another horse that dominant in a Championship race before or since -  but he won a subsequent Ch Ch, a Game Spirit and an Irish Champ. Chase so where the 'over-rated' tag comes from I've no idea.

This is a good debate, and I know that people love this horse, but I personally don't buy the way that first QM has been rated for one second.

The ground was awful that year, and it threw up freak results in many of the Championship races. Katchit beat Osana in the Champion Hurdle, and Kauto Star only finished a short head in front of Neptune Colanges in the Gold Cup.

The QM was no different imo. Voy Por didn't go on the ground at all for my money, and ran way below form, and as the only other credible challengers Tamerinbleu and Twist Magic did what they often do and ran no sort of races, Master Minded was left to come home alone and looking like the second coming of Arkle.

That run just doesn't stack up, imo, when you consider that five weeks earlier, in a race in which the principals raced hard to the line, Voy Por gave Master Minded 6lbs and was beaten just five lengths in the Game Spirit at Newbury. If you believe that Master Minded's 19 length defeat of the same horse in the QM just five weeks later is an accurate refection of his ability, you have to buy into the fact that he improved by 18lbs in just over a month. For me, a far more likely interpretation of that form has always been that Voy Por ran pounds and pounds below his best in that QM on ground he's always hated. With every race in which Master Minded has run since, that conclusion has become more and more likely, imo, as he's never reproduced that level of form, and his limitations have been exposed on many occasions (as in my post above).

Don't get me wrong, Master Minded is a very good and admirable horse, but he's not the superstar people still seem to believe him to be, in my humble opinion...

This is a good debate, and one I'm very glad to have initiated.

While I actually agree with most of what millhouse says (I think his first QM win was over-rated), I still think a number of pieces of form away from that one off spectacular make him the best we have seen since Moscow Flyer. As I said initially, I am working on the theory that he was never right last term - and although many will take another view, nobody can deny that there is at least a possibility that his rib injury and rushed prep for Cheltenham saw him underperform behind Big Zeb.

Go back to 2009, and 10-length and 16-length maulings of decent (if not superstar) competition in Grade One events surely suggest however they are rated that he is a mid-170 horse and maybe more. He then won by seven lengths in the QM to confirm himself a very good champion, if not out of Moscow Flyer's mould.

Even rating his first Qm conservatively, I think it's hard to rate him lower than the mid 170s at least. Although Tamarinbleu and Twist Magic patently failed to run their races, it is less clear whether Voy Por did - or if he at least ran close to his best. Even taking him out of the equation, the distance and manner of the beating handed out to solid yardsticks in the Grade Two to Three mould in that race put him on a very high rating.

That being the case, I still feel he has every right to be top of the list to regain his QM crown next March. If the wind op has worked and he improves a few pounds, that would make him hard to beat for me.

So whats wrong with the current champ,and why should MM beat him.

have to agree with a lot of what Millhouse said above.At the time i thought it was one of the worse QMums i had seen for a long time,and thought MM rating after that was over the top.Fair enough he proved to be the best 2 miler for a couple of years after,but that rating put him above some horses of the past that imo were better.

See absolutely no reason at all that he will beat Big Zeb next March,none at all.

moscow flyer. master minded. best 2 mile chasers ever. FACT. and on their day there wouldn't be much between them.

That's exactly why this game is great - because opinions make it so.

For me, Big Zeb is one of the least trustworthy championship winners I can remember. His jumping will always be a worry, he manages to get beaten far more often in pokey little races than he should, and when he's bad he's very bad (ie. Tingle Creek). Am sure he has excuses too, but for my money he has needed more than most in the past and won a QM with a good performance on a day where the opposition failed to show up. His defeat of Forpadydeplasterer was not top-class form for me - and, as I say, my opinion is simply that Master Minded was not at his best all last season.

On his day - when things go right - Big Zeb is a very talented individual, but it would not surprise me in the slightest to see him make an early mistake in next year's renewal, always be off the bit and finish well out of the money.

Just my opinion, of course!

When MM got beat by Well Chief he not only got injured but was conceding 10lbs,iirc.

won a QM with a good performance on a day where the opposition failed to show up
Tom
Think that statement is more apt re MM to be honest.
Personally thought this years race was a good one with the winner pretty much faultless.

MM,its not fact that Moscow and MM are the best,its opinion shared by you and the handicapper,who in my opinion got it wrong.
If MF AND MM had run against each other i have no doubt MF would have won,but of course we will never know.

Moscow genuinely a different league to Master Minded, imho...

I think sometimes we look for a level of consistency in the performance of the top two mile chasers that is unrealistic. To reach the top in that division, the jumping has to be particularly slick, which of course increases the chances of making jumping errors (that was particularly well illustrated in the case of Moscow Flyer). They also generally go so much faster in the championship races over two miles by contrast with the smaller field, less prestigious races over the same distance at other times in the season; on that basis, it is not surprising that horses like Big Zeb can look less than superstars in the smaller field races run at a lesser pace.

They also go such a pace in the two mile championship races these days that the horse's breathing has to be more or less absolutely right on the day to not be choking or losing rhythm as the race develops. As MM has been given a breathing operation over the summer, it seems likely that his failure to quite see out the race in the QM last season has been viewed potentially as a breathing issue.

The Irish fences are generally that bit bigger, or at least have the potential to slow the horses that bit more, and so Irish form in top two mile races can be very different to form in the same division in the UK. That is a point possibly worth bearing in mind in relation to horses like Big Zeb.

Also, if you buy into Nic Mordin's ideas about the importance of the rest pattern for two mile chasers, some inconsistency in the form of some of the top two milers of recent years can potentially be seen as a consequence of the horse racing again too quickly after producing a top performance in good company.

I think the price for Big Zeb for the QM is possibly about right at the moment, but I would be more wary of underestimating this one than overestimating him.

tomdeane

'make him the best we have seen since Moscow'

this is correct but most on here would have had you belive that he was much better than Moscow after that win. Subsequent runs have proven that he isnt. IMO

Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop and Well Chief were all very good and when at their peak I would rate them the three best 2 mile chasers of the last 15 years.

^ That is certainly debatable but I see the logic and almost agree (in the sense that I'd put a peak form Master Minded among the latter two. More importantly, I am still very much of the opinion that you'd be arguing whether Master Minded is the one to shuffle that trio and not Big Zeb. Just feel that MM is still very young to have been written off by many considering he had very real excuses for one disappointing season.

Sageform - IMHO you would have to add Big Zeb to the list and wouldn't be sure about Well Chief. I think Big Zebs performances compares favourably with anything posted by MF, AZ or MM, and was travelling with real menace when coming down 4 out in 2009.

I also think the reason that they are so quiet about MM is that they are guessing at the problem. On his reappearance last season he lugged right, and we were told that a broken rib had been identified as the problem. When he beat Mahogany Blaze at Newbury I was convinced he was following the same tack although the course did not exaggerate the problem as much as the Cheltenham performance. It was at that point I decided to oppose him, given the rush of support the Newbury win brought. He showed the same tendency again in the QM. Now they have resorted to a wind op - which smacks of desperation.

A  very interesting thread.  I'm in the same camps as Millhouse and abbott on this.

An extract from on of my pre-2010 Festival posts:

QM Champion Chase
I've said pretty much all I want to say about this race on my QM thread.  I've always thought the style of MM's wins amount to more than the substance - arguably the best horse he has met was Big Zeb who would almost certainly have beaten him bar trying to destroy the last fence.  I think Forpady is a better horse than Big Zeb and if he is A1 (bearing in mind his setback) he has every chance of beating the favourite.

As mentioned MM's huge reputation centres on his demolition of the field in his first QM. That was a stunning visual performance and undoubtedly his best; it was just his 4th run for the yard. his third completion, after easily dispensing with Hasty Prince at Sandown and VPU at Newbury: he was a horse on the up, getting maximum benefit from the impeccable set-up at Ditcheat - a real improver who reached his zenith on QM day.

Millhouse, I'm not sure the ground had much to do with VPU's performance that day - he has a fine record on good to soft, and Timeform agreed with the official going given by Claisse (usually filed under fiction, as Alastair Down might say).  VPU is, however, a key player in the over-rating of MM, because he himself has always been over-rated at 2 miles.  VPU won the worst QM I can remember, driven out to beat Dempsey and River City.  His Arkle win was just before they did away with the 5lb allowance he got when beating Monet's Garden just over a length at, arguably, the grey's least favourite track.

Other than VPU, as mentioned, he's beaten a bunch of rag-tag-and-bobtails - Hasty Prince, Petit Robin, Mahogany Blaze, a past-it Well Chief and the enigmatic Tidal Bay.  As mentioned above, style has been great, substance poor.

There might well be some substantial value in the QM in 2011 because although Big Zeb is, in essence, a sound jumper, his concentration lapses in the past have cost him dear and I wouldn't be taking a shortish price about him until he's strung together three flawless wins.  If he does that in advance of the festival, I wouldn't oppose him.

MM is off my list for the reasons mentioned above and - as hinted at by Bobby D - I take the wind op as a negative. Such surgery is often straw-clutching, and if it has an effect it seldom lasts.  It will be a fascinating run up, especially with Sizing Europe targeted at staying chases until his 'best' distance is found.  Roll on the trials.

Interesting post Steeplechasing.

I can't agree about that ground description though - if you remember it was the year of the storms when there were eight race cards on the Thursday and Friday, and there were some strange results that year, as mentioned in my post above.

The Champion Hurdle and Gold Cup were both absolute wars of attrition, with both races won by the horse you would have picked out at the start as the one likely to want it the most, and in Katchit's case at least, the form has never been repeated again. For me this was because of the conditions. I've no idea why, but some horses just couldn't act on the going at that meeting, imho, and my reading of it, fwiw, is that this is why Voy Por ran so badly in that QM, and why Master Minded's performance looked so devestating.

As for Voy Por, I take your point, but it's worth noting that his career record in Championship two mile races at the Cheltenham Festival reads 112.

What's really sad is that 08 QM changed Voy Por's whole career - connections ducked a rematch with Master Minded in the QM the following year, and on his fine second to Imperial Commander in the Ryanair at the same meeting he surely would have given Master Minded loads to think about had his connections been braver - I for one was devestated at that decision, as I thought he would have been a fantastic value bet at the likely odds to beat Master Minded, in what ended up little short of a one horse race...

Fair enough millhouse, I think the key sticking point between us is much more the value of VPU's form than the ground issue.  Once again, a wonderfully consistent horse at his best (over 20f in my view), but those Cheltenham figures you post are devalued, I think, by the actual form of the races, especially the QM victory.

I feel for the horse in that he should have been retired before the end of last season. His jumping has gone under pressure and connections have been messing him around with trip, right-hand, left-hand theories etc when the horse owes them nothing.  They owe him the dignity of preserving his memory as a high class and most consistent steeplechaser.  I hope they see sense and find him a nice field somewhere and a comfortable box for the winter.

Anyone know how Paul Nicholls rates Master Minded relative to Azertyioup? The inference from most of his quotes relating to MM in the past are that he is the best 2 miler he has had, if he's some way above Azertuiop, then that possible must put him up with Moscow Flyer, if not above. Just the trainer's oppinion of course.

neill d, with the two you mention being owned by the most 'sensitive' owners in his yard, I think Nicholls would do all he could to avoid trying to compare them . . . though someone might prove me wrong by posting a quote!

Talk of Frankel's astonishing work on the gallops had our man reminiscing about the best he'd seen at his Ditcheat yard...

    "Master Minded simply made Kauto Star - a dual Tingle Creek winner - look pedestrian."

I was reading about Frankel's outstanding gallops ahead of Saturday's Dewhurst Stakes, and it got me wondering... what is the best piece of work I have seen at Ditcheat?

Well, it has to be Master Minded's piece of work with Kauto Star two days before he won the Game Spirit.

At that point, we didnt know what we had with Master Minded, who had only won a handicap chase off 145 at Sandown.

But his work that day left Clifford Baker on Kauto Star. absolutely speechless - quite literally.

Master Minded simply made Kauto Star - a dual Tingle Creek winner - look pedestrian.

I have never seen a piece of work like it before or since.

PAul nicholls... betfair.

quite decent PN on betfair you could do alot worse....apparently MM has had a wind op.

Scoop6, with the greatest of respect, I'm sure you would agree that gallops mean absolutey nothing in the grand scheme of things.

If races were contested at three quarter pace without coming off the bit then Harchibald would probably have won five Champion Hurdles...

Agreed

I'd want to know the weights carried and the instructions to the jockeys before I put any credence on works reports

That clipit was taken the year MM won QMCC at the festival... just to show how good PN thought he was that year...

i was reporting that he had a wind op...

which from certain quarters,  say they do not work????

They just don't mean anything, unless it was a gallop over two miles at level weights with fences in front of them at racing pace.

It's a bit like judging who'll win the Olympic 100 meteres on the way they warm up jogging down the track...

I remember them quotes from PN before his first Queen Mother win. He also said he'd never had a horse improve so much between races as MM did.

Perhaps he did all his improvement in on go ?

I still think he'll be back tbh.

* one go

PFN's quote kind of confirms part of what I posted earlier:

As mentioned MM's huge reputation centres on his demolition of the field in his first QM. That was a stunning visual performance and undoubtedly his best; it was just his 4th run for the yard. his third completion, after easily dispensing with Hasty Prince at Sandown and VPU at Newbury: he was a horse on the up, getting maximum benefit from the impeccable set-up at Ditcheat - a real improver who reached his zenith on QM day.

He was never quite the same after that first QM

^ agree

i remember reading a quote from PFN after this years champion chase, where he said MM comes from a family who have peaked at an early age and decreased quite quickly. and he feared that might be happening to MM.
the breathing op might be a last throw of the dice

I have always thought this must be nonsense - that horses can be predetermined to wane in ability at an early age because of their breeding. Isn't it just that French-bred horses often peak sooner than English and Irish horses as they start jumping earlier? This often leaves good French-bred horses weighted up to the hilt when they are comparatively young, which leads to them failing to win for a while, which leads people to assuming they have regressed.

When you get real French-bred superstars like Kauto, they don't regress - they either hold their form or, in his case, carry on improving. As I said in the first post on this thread (I believe), my point regarding Master Minded is that he had excuses for one bad season but is still young enough to recapture his best. Kauto Star was written off by a huge number of people after he finished second in a Gold Cup and he has since gone on to prove his doubters incredibly wrong.

As I've said all along, I am not sure if we will see Master Minded back to his best. But there is a good chance that he might bounce back. He is after all trained by someone who knows a thing or two about horses. Maybe the wind op is a last resort, but maybe it isn't. How could anyone second guess this? Let's just wait and see - hold back your judgement until MM has been out again. I hope we see him back to his old self on the track this season.

Meant to add that it would be interesting to know when that Nicholls' quote about fearing MM was on the downgrade was taken. I recall him saying a near identical thing about Kauto after his defeat in the Gold Cup of 2008 but that worry soon evaporated.

Imo he's the only horse capable of demolishing the field, so the price is good. If they all run to their best, MM wins and it's a lottery behind him.
Such a fine line that separates say MM and big bucks who've both been odds on certs for their last 8 or 9 races. But ones had setbacks and maybe one bad day and the other didnt. The game spirit says to me hes not on the downgrade and it's still a huge horse to have on your side. all imo

Thats just it,i dont think he is capable now of demolishing the field.Big zeb is now a better horse imo.But keep touting MM,and ignore last season,fine with me.

^ That's basically what it all comes down to, I agree. You have to either forgive MM last season - or at least be open minded to forgiving him that season - or you get behind Big Zeb after he was an impressive winner of the QM.

I am in the former camp, many are not. My beef with Big Zeb is that he ran a shocker in the Tingle Creek, when good jumping from his competitors left him out with the washing at a track that puts real emphasis on accurate fencing. He has always been a liability at his fences and for that reason I would not be at all surprised if he reverts to type in this year's QM. As an aside, it is slightly odd that Colm Murphy has another similar, talented two-miler in his care in the shape of Zaarito, who also seems not to have learned how to jump fences.

Is interesting for me to see if they decide to have a look at a longer trip with MM. He has been written off as a non stayer due to one failure over 20f at Aintree, in a race that came 3 weeks after he won his first QM, at a time when he was still a very young horse. For me the non performance that day could be put down to bounce or simply tiredness. Maybe he doesn't have the explosive pace he once had over 2 miles but when he won his first QM he looked like he was ready to go round again. If a step up in trip is successful at some point this season he could become a lively ditcheat contender for the GC

Tom,i really hope most agree with you my friend.

I wanted to post two points on this thread; one about MM being the youngest horse in this years QM and why people are so quick to think a lightly raced 7 year old is on the decline. And I also wanted to point out that Nicholls did not want to run MM in the 2009 game spirit (had it survived the snow) as he 'wanted him fresh to defend his crown' which, considering his hand was slightly forced to run him the 2010 game spirit (to 'find out where we are with him') may have helped to explain the QM performance.

but...

Nicholls does seem really pessimistic about this horse doesnt he? As brandy pointed out, the immediate after race interviews are all about how the mares foals didnt train on and he'd always suspected MM might go the same way. For a trainer who often gives reasons for failure he hasnt made many positive noises about MM at all since last March.

We might only see the top 2 milers on very few occasions this season. Big Zeb is reportedly having a light campaign, geared to defending his title; Master Minded might only have one or two races prior to Cheltenham (should he make it); Tataniano is very ground dependent.

JOCI, plans for Master Minded are Tingle Creek, Game Spirit and Queen Mother.

That came from Nicholls.

Yesterday's Haldon Gold Cup didn't exactly do a lot for the young brigade did it?

Possible excuses for Somersby (can jump better and didn't look completely fit), but the fact Twist Magic gave them all well over a stone and nearly won suggests the up-and-comers still have a lot of improving to do to beat those established at the top of the tree.

Nicholls said in his stable tour he'll be starting over 2m3f at Ascot on November 20th. Will be interesting.

He bounced in last years QM Chase imho

cant resist throwing a couple of quid at him for gold cup at massive odds

Same story with Kauto who nobody believed would go further and look at him

If Kauto suffers from the effects of that fall at Chelt Denman is in and out with his well publicised heart problem

Maybe they could throw this into the mix at nearly 400/1 am prepared for the worst but maybe we might get a runner at further

It would be very interesting to see how Kauto would get on in the QM. His best 2 mile form would laugh at the rest of the current crop but don't suppose he will ever go back to shorter.

tomdeane Joined: 29 Jul 04
Replies: 105 03 Nov 10 12:05 
Yesterday's Haldon Gold Cup didn't exactly do a lot for the young brigade did it?

Possible excuses for Somersby (can jump better and didn't look completely fit), but the fact Twist Magic gave them all well over a stone and nearly won suggests the up-and-comers still have a lot of improving to do to beat those established at the top of the tree.

Still early days, but at this stage very hard to see where any strength in depth for the QM this season will come from. The current top four in the market look well ahead of any of the others. However, of those four, two come with concerns about them physically (Master Minded because of the wind op and loss of form last season and Captain Cee Bee for having bled significantly twice now in major races; Tataniano looks promising but remains largely unproven; and Big Zeb, though a very good horse and worthy champion, imo, has shown that tendency to lose concentration and make jumping errors as a consequence in some of his races.

Reminds me of the QM market early season 2007/8 i.e. before Master Minded burst onto the scene and dramatically blew open the betting. If we are to get another one coming from left field to radically alter the QM market, as Master Minded did in 2008, I've not a clue who it might be at this stage.

I would be struggling to put a case forward for Long Run as a dark horse for the QM, but maybe it is worth keeping the door slightly open for the possibility that this talented horse might have been better off in the Arkle than the RSA last season, and that he could still be a little unexposed in terms of exactly what he might be able to achieve over two miles in top company. I've no confidence at all that Long run could make into a top two miler. My point is more that if Long Run did show any promise over 16-20f this season in good company, he is one whose price for QM could drop dramatically from the very long odds available at present. Any hint from Henderson that he might target Long Run at the shorter distances later in the season, would then shake up the QM market more than most things I could imagine happening in that market this season.

^ Interesting, especially after Saturday. Long Run is a horse I have never really taken to, but he is plainly very talented and there is something about him that suggests he could well improve for a testing two miles. Would surely be a better option than the Gold Cup as a six-year-old. Could very well be a good shout.

But, most interesting to me and some of his other fans is Master Minded's return at the weekend. I don't think 2m3f will be a problem to him and would expect him to win well at ascot, really. The comments of connections in the build-up have been notably low key, but I get the impression they don't quite know what to expect.

Well, what do we think after Saturday?

Have to admit my own personal opinion is that the jury remains out - he could easily go on from this but I was not 100% convinced he finished the race with as much in the tank as some believe. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if poor old Alberta's had stood up.

I thought he looked like a previous champ back in love with what he does best, flying over fences quickly and amazingly economically, and although I'm sure Alberta's would have given him summat to think about, if you'd have to back/lay both just before the fence AR fell at, I'd be backing MM. Certainly as long as there's some decent juice in the ground come March I'd be hesitant, if not feeling somewhat foolhardy, taking him on in the QM.

Now I am convinced he is back to his best. Good opportunity for QM ante-post players to lay off now with the other major pretenders not having had the chance to advance their claims.