2m4f Novice Chase...

a little write up about it........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/sep/15/horse-racing-cheltenhamfestival?

Just don't understand the need... Yet more antepost punting pitfalls! [>o]

whats the problem with it? alot of horses optimum trip is 2m 4f makes sense to have a novice chase over that trip

The lunatics are taking over. This is madness. Makes AP punting even more tricky. Must thin and weaken the field in the arkle and rsa. it will almost certainly weaken the manifesto chase. God knows what it will do to the jewson. Of course the world revolves around the festival, around the bottom line for the racecourse and bookies, so all the rest of us can forget it. Why not have a race over 2m 2 or 2m6? of a seller? what a shower!

WALOFS

dananders Joined: 14 Jan 09
Replies: 4854 16 Sep 10 18:00   


whats the problem with it? alot of horses optimum trip is 2m 4f makes sense to have a novice chase over that trip

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Are you able to see past the end of your very own nose? [smiley:crazy]

Perhaps you should be an ante post layer-free money if horses don't run.

SAGE - That's probably the way forward, your are right, but I dont lay horses and am just a bit of a purist for the festival, but yes, what you say is what most people are doing.

heres no problem with it stop moaning

Que?

This race will suit Paul Nolans noble prince - going chasing next month - excellent hurdles form

Existing program provides for 2m 4f novice chasers with the Scilly Isles at Sandown and the Pendil at Kempton in February, plus the Manifesto at Aintree and the Future Champions at Ayr in April. Those races last season were won by Punchestowns, The Nightingale, Mad Max and French Opera.

Three of those managed perfectly well at the festival without having a special race laid on for them. Take Punchestowns out of the 3m race and you would have diminished that contest, ditto Mad Max and the Arkle, French Opera and the Grand Annual.

There were 12 runners in the Arkle, 9 in the RSA, both staged on perfect ground - where are the horses for this new race going to come from?

If they need to stage an extra race, for whatever reason, they should adopt the one I prefer - the Ever Decreasing Circles Veterans Handicap Chase, for 11-y-olds and up, rated 0-130, over 7 miles on the Cross Country Course, to be ridden only by lady amateurs born in Ireland and related to previous Festival winning jockeys or trainers.

I believe that meets every requirement of specialisation, although it could perhaps be improved by limiting it to grey horses - or to horses trained by Enda Bolger and owned by JP. Sixteen different coloured caps would add to the fun.

They seem to be tinkering for the sake of tinkering, and I hate to see the quality of fields getting diluted.

The Anorak

I can see someone in race planning wondering if you are being serious...!

A season too late imo

Anorak

I'll see your 'Ever Decreasing Circles' race and raise you 'The One for retired horses trained by a North Eastern pig farmer, whose - the horses - initials are QC and who might very possibly be dead' Chase.

ronsk - to come back to your original question - as The Anorak has eloquently demonstrated above - there is no need for it. As mentioned by R Carver, it will weaken the Jewson, and over time I fear it may wreck the RSA Chase - already enough mithering by trainers over that race.

so why introduce it? I fear this is just another drip in the Chinese water torture towards a 5 day Festival - I would bet good money dear old Ed G and co are aiming for a 5 day, 6 race a day event before much longer. This new novice race will be followed by other essentials such as a mares bumper and another x-country race. In due course they will wreck the event by their efforts.

Just So

Couldn't agree more, but what are we going to do about it?

The traditional racing press wouldn't dream of upsetting the gravy train (to mix metaphors). The idea will be floated by Mr Gillespie and the racing press will come out with a load of spineless b0110cks about 'the inevitability of a five day festival....building on the present demand (ignoring the fact Cheltenham had to resort to a combined 2 day ticket for Thursday and Friday and to the ultimate marketing barrel scraping of introducinga 'Ladies Day' on Thursday)....following in the success of Royal Ascot' etc.

Plenty of decent NH folk will go 'It's Cheltenham isn't it?' and fork out for a fifth day / extra nights accommodation. Uttoxeter / Midlands National and ante-post punters outside owners and trainers bent on skullduggery (who CAN I be talking about) can go ferk themselves and it'll be trebles all round in the press room, toasting the great success of a Five Day festival

Roger, I hear you mate - but to answer your question, I honestly dont know the answer. I assume that, like me, you are a NH / Festival diehard - the fact is that the cheltenham board are not that bothered about our part of the market - Gillespie is on record as being pretty relaxed about one-time whole-festival attenders moving to one or two days only. In March he was completely open about this in turn facilitating "a whole new set of wallets" (I kid you not) coming in for Gold Cup Friday.

I wouldnt go so far as to say the board dont care about the Festival racing product but if a fifth day means stretching it ever thinner it seems that is the way they will go. I'll tell you what though - if they wreck the balance / intensity of the first two days I will be seriously annoyed.

I know, I know.

It was more rhetorical than anything. Another whinge from a marginalised festival goer, during the present phoney war before it all kicks off on Charlie Hall Chase Day!

:)

I thought it all kicked off with Chepstow Roger[;)] - whatever, cannot wait!

btw, agree with you both roger/just so, it is heartbreaking seeing these 'bottom-line fanatics' watering it down.

The very essence of what makes the Cheltenham Festival what it is, i.e the quality of virtually every race, is in danger, as above posters say, of being diluted by this rush to introduce a fifth day. There is only so much money to go round, even the corporate hospitality was less last year, and a fifth day would only, in the long term, spread that money over more days rather than increasing revenue whilst totally ruining the unique place the Festival has in the racing publics esteem. This perception of the Festival as the 'best of the best' is something money cannot buy and once lost, Cheltenham becomes just another race meeting. Their short sightedness in not being able to see this and going for short term gain and greed will ultimately kill the Golden Goose.

The earlier despairing reference 'why not a seller' prompts me to report that even that would not be a new innovation at the meeting. I have a 1913 form bookk, which reveals the National Hunt meeting at Cheltenham taking place over two days, Weds and Thurs March 12th/13th.

The first two races on day one were the Southam Selling Chase 2M, and the Stayers Selling Hurdle over 3M. On day two, it was the Cleeve Selling Hurdle and the Swindon Selling Chase.

And just to confirm that there's nothing new in the game, the final race on Weds was the Cotswold N H Flat Race - a surprise for those who thought that bumpers were a recent invention.

Most of the rest is still familiar today - NH Chase over 4M, Grand Annual, Foxhunters, County Hurdle, NH Handicap Chase. But, and I hope I'm not giving the current management ideas, the most valuable race of the two days was one that I doubt any current NH fan would guess - the National Hunt Juvenile Chase over 2M, featuring twelve 4-y-olds.

Some things never change though - the County Hurdle winner had finished tailed off on his two previous starts!

Crikey Anorak! 1913! How old are you

I bet they had some curmudgeonly old farts decrying the Course Exec for going from a two day to a three day meeting back in the day too!

Plus ca chenge etc....
[:)]

Can't believe so many people are banging on about dilution.  They've introduced a quality Novices' Chase ffs...to avoid the dilution brigade going off on one.  Maybe you'd all rather have another handicap.  2m 0-125 Hurdle for Lady Amateur Riders?

Funny you mention handicaps Headmaster - IMO one extra race the Festival could do with is a decent 4m handicap chase, Grand National Trial type event (maybe with a bonus for a beast doing the double). When it comes to existing Grade 1 championship events I'd rather not see them weakened by the introduction of lower grade races over intermediate trips but each to their own.

Hi Headmaster

I'd rather rather not have any more races.

I think the race which will suffer most the Headmaster is the Jewson. At the moment that is a good quality handicap but with the option of a Grade 2 I predict that the quality of the Jewson will be reduced.

2011 race schedule and no sign of the new race......

http://www.cheltenham.co.uk/racing/the_festival/race_schedule.html

Dark Destroyer - I spoke to the track and the new race is being added to the programme. New schedule to be released once they know the order.

Bastards !

Many thanks - the Arkle is now a complete no go area for me.

I disagree that the Jewson is the race that will suffer - it will almost certainly be the end of the RSA as we know it. Most trainers already dislike the race, thinking it's too punishing a trip for novice chasers; and let's be fair - of the last 20 winners of the RSA, how many have gone onto better things?
I doubt there will be more than 6 starters for the RSA next March if there is a 2m4f novice chase; if that.

Albertas Run and Denman are recent RSA winners that seem to have prospered subsequently.

The issue with the Jewson is that if the higher rated horses - say 140+ - duck that for the level weights race, then that will let in lower rated horses at the bottom of the weights for the Jewson. At present, trainers have to get their novices to show quality form to rate high enough to get into the Jewson. If you lower the bar for qualification, you increase the chances of a plot horse getting in with a light weight - of course I wouldn't dream of mentioning any names in connection with this tactic!

Trabolgan won a Hennessy off top weight before injury intervened, Looks Like Trouble won a GC etc..

This decision is a joke. It will weaken the jewson, the arkle, the rsa. I think the debate about which is weakens most is academic, its just a stupid decision.

6 runners in the RSA?  You've lost the plot mate.

This idea that you are only allowed to go up in 1 mile increments for Championship Jump races is nonsense. Thank God you lot aren't in charge of Flat racing. It would be 5f, 1m and 1m 4f, with no 6f, 7f or 10f races to speak of.

Here's a thought - before we all assume the top-weight for the Jewson will be rated 103, the Arkle will be a match and the RSA will be a walkover, why don't we see how things pan out?

I seem to remember a very similar reaction when the Ryanair was introduced.  Doesn't seem to have worked out too badly, does it?

I hope you are right Headmaster, time will tell.

the race i can see weakening sadly is the RSA

enough of the condescension Headmaster.

let's see how things pan out alright - all the way to a fifth day and yet more dilution of the quality core of the Festival. The Ryanair has been a success but personally I can't say that the juvenile handicap, the mares race or the conditionals handicap have added much to the experience. Once the Cheltenham board get something on the schedule it is not going to be removed any time soon.

I think the Mares race has been an excellent addition myself.

Is that because its easy to find the winner

The big thing at the back of their minds is that they (BHB, Racing For Change, Cheltenham Executive etc) are desperate to have Cheltenham go through to the Saturday (and myabe even Sunday). They have just changed centuries of history by moving the Newmarket July and York Ebor meetings to incoporate a Saturday so how long before Cheltenham goes the same way.

If the idiots have their way uncle, it will be about 5 mins before it includes a sat and sunday

the clipper,

Another one of Des's in the Nolan yard I see for this. We're a year to late

Very happy with R.Dubh's progress no doubt !!!

Condescension, Just So?  Fookin eck. Someone disagrees with you - get over it!  If you want to 'wreck' races as you say, I'd make a 4m H'cap my starting point - what do you think would happen to the 4miler, 3m H'cap and (if anyone cares) the Midlands National?     

It's all down to taste anyway and, for me, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Ryanair, Mares' Race or Fred Winter.  All good additions.  Don't know if the CJs' race brings much to the party from a horse point of view but it's still good to see the boys get their oppo when you consider the A/Rs have three races to themselves.  As for this new race, the only danger is it will work too well, but not to the extent that we'll see 5 or 6 runner Arkles or RSAs.  The Jewson now has a rating cap of 140 on it so that will be fine too.

I think it might be worth making the distinction in grumbles from those that just don't want another race at all and those that wouldn't mind one but think this race is the wrong choice.  To the formers, that's your opinion and that's a shame for you.  To the latters - personally, I think you're mad.  Cheltenham have introduced a quality Nov Chase over a trip that trainers are crying out for at a category that is properly establishing itself and should no longer be viewed as intermediate. From a true Jump fans' perspective, this was - by a margin - the best race on the table. The pool of novice chasers doesn't start and end with whatever would have run in the Arkle or RSA, and this brings in other horses that wouldn't be at the Festival otherwise.  Apart fron a bit of ante-post misery, which I will no doubt feel as much as anyone, what is wrong with that?!?

Where is the market for this new race ?

17 Mar 2011
1:00    Cheltenham
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oops

Paul Duffy, owner of Reve De Sivola, said: "He is relentless at the back end of his races but he will definitely come on for this as Nick's horses have been held up in the weather.

"We have always thought of himas a Gold Cup horse in the making but that will be next season as his target this time will be the new two and a half mile novice chase at the festival."