Is Coolmores world being turned upside down?

Certainly the crop of three year old colts is looking less than Group 1 standard at least at middle distances. The remainder of the season will show whether the juvenile talent is of a higher standard in keeping with previous years or whether a more fundamental problem exists. Just at present the Darley breeding operation is more dominant but weather and prevailing going can affect results as can the health of horses in a yard. I wouldn't rush to conclusions just yet.

Well Dessie you have slightly answered your own post because whilst Coolmore aren’t standing Siyouni they have made sure they have his two best sons on their roster in due course.
Also st Mark’s is the best prospect around right now so when he retires next spring there will be nothing hotter.

wootton bassett

Yes millionaire I accept what you say but as I see it a) St Marks Basilica is enhancing the claims of Siyouni at stud whilst he is winning classics and the galileos etc are not and b) when St Marks does retire theres no guarantee he will be successful at stud for coolmore. They seem to have gone in hard on Caravaggio this year which will be interesting with regard to producing classic winners? I'm no expert but it looks to me this may be a transitional period for them while they wait to see how Wootton Bassett progeny with their broodmares (galileo) turn out.In the meantime there is Frankels moon rising with his first Derby winner.......No doubt Coolmore

I think Coolmore have more than enough ammunition to keep them in business while they find another Galileo. There is no guarantee any horse will be successful at stud but no one offers the quality they do year after year, Its only a matter of time. There is no real competition.

Juddmonte with Frankel and Kingman aren't competition?

Maybe just now A-T but how long will it last? I can't see J being much of a force going forward. Frankel is obviously special but he won't last forever.

They need one son of Galileo to be producing outstanding performers- problem is they have too many to choose from - Australia hasn't made the start they hoped for and the best sons of G (Frankel and New Approach) aren't theirs.

You may be right A_T. I think the next big thing may come from another sire line.

Maybe Saxon Warrior. first top-class son of Deep Impact to stand in Europe?

He was a great looking racehorse so maybe. I know many don't like Wootton Bassett too much but I think he might be the real deal. I've never seen him in the flesh but his photo's look superb. What about the Scat Daddies and NNNs? Ten Sovereigns could be anything. We shall see, there is a lot to look forward to.

I seem to remember them winning the 1000 Guineas and the Oaks recently. I know that means broodmares, not future sires, but in my eyes, Coolmore success is coming from the mares as much as the sires.

saddlers wells, danehill, galileo.......3 money printing machines. maybe they wont be lucky enough to get another one for 20 years.

Nice to see the traditional breeders among the Ascot winners. Bolger, Highclere Stud, Cheveley Park, Aga Khan, Mr and Mrs David Brown (Juan Alco) who, if they are the same people I once knew well, have been breeding for many years. Anyone know if it is David Brown, the England fast bowler and his wife Trish, whose father Alan Strange, won the Gold Cup with Four Ten? Also who knows who Homecroft Wealth Racing (Oxted) are? No wins yet for Coolmore, Juddmonte, Shadwell or Godolphin.

They are one and the same and still run Furnace Mill Stud in Warwickshire with their granddaughter. I have just rung David to congratulate them and he tells me they have a full brother foal!

frankel has lot of individual g1 winners both no star yet who has won multiple proper group 1's......maybe only cracksman......but he is getting there. only a matter of time before he starts getting galileo ones who win 5 or 6 group 1's.

Galileo RIP. Now the sons have to step up and show which is the best. My money is on Frankel.

Galileo dead is a terrible loss for Coolmore.
I suppose the sires list will still have a 1 to 10 but nothing like him on top.

Galileo RIP. Now the sons have to step up and show which is the best. My money is on Frankel.


Frankel would now seem to be the #1 stallion from the Northern Dancer sire line

Frankel got another g1 winner this week. hes flying. coolmore have not bred many from him. they do have 3 more galileo crops.

I'm not sure it will be a son of G that will be the next big thing for Coolmore. It may be but I think it may come from one of his daughters in due time. Still however it turns out it is a big loss for everyone, he was a great stallion.

It seems a lot of people think it could be Wootton Bassett. Who could argue? He has done fantastically well this year and on the face of it looks like a good cross for all of their Galileo mares.

100000 euro looks pricey - wouldn't command that fee from any other stud

I see your point A_T but I think they may even put him up next year. 244 mares at 100k is £24m (probably 1/2 that in the end) so they may not be too worried about how they turn out!!!

He’s €100,000 to keep him mainly for the Coolmore mares and whoever else wants to stump up they will pick and choose the mares. He’s the outcross they needed fir all them Galileo mares.

It is always said that they need an outcross for their Galileo mares (and that is of course true), but what about all the mares that Galileo has been covering. Those are the ones that have produced the champions for them and they are the ones that they to get covered with G's replacement.

Two G1 2yo's for them today. I think that will provide some optimism for next year and the future.

Although he was only a sprinter, I think NO NAY NEVER could prove a life-saver for "the lads". He is doing much better than Wootton Bassett is at present. And don;t forget the admirable Camelot, whose offspring are bred 3x3 to Urban Sea. There is also the possible option that they buy a superior colt out of training from anyone but Godolphin.

I think Saxon Warrior still has a chance at breaking in to the top level. It will be interesting to see how his 3yo's do.

yes Coolmore deserve credit for investing in alternative sire lines. Deep Impact has had some good ones in Europe despite few runners.

£35k seems sensible. I would imagine he will get a decent book at that price.

It looks like a better year ahead for Coolmore. Do you think they would rather win the Guineas with one of their own or with Joseph's Al Riffa?

It seemed to take a while for Coolmore to realise that a lot of their eggs were in one basket with Galileo, however phenomenal he was as a sire. I am not convinced that Wootton Bassett is the answer for all their Galilieo mares, though. Apart from Almanzor he has not impressed me. At least now they have the poorly-named St Marks Basilica with good prospects, and let's not forget the sterling Camelot who goes from strength to strength. No Nay Never has done hearteningly well for them, albeit his offspring are unlikely to stay Derby distances. Also, it will be interesting to see whether the two acquired Arc winners Sottsass (another yukky name!) and Waldgeist make an impact.

I think when the Coolmore Galileo mares come on line WB should do nicely. He already has a G1 winning 2yo out of a G mare. I like NNN (who doesn't?) and he may well get a Guineas with Little Big ear this year. Its a lot brighter than last season.

great day for Juddmonte yesterday - their own son of their star sire Frankel winning the guineas and looking like a natural for their roster after retirement - a family member was keen to emphasise their commitment to racing. Meanwhile Coolmore's star juveniles of last year finished out with the washing

You are right A-T. It was a smashing win and he is a proper good guineas winner. I hope the family member maintains the operation. Well done.

Coolmore have certainly lost the aura of invincibility lately although the Oaks favourite looks very good. Juddmonte throw their hat into the ring for the Oaks today with Bluestocking.

I think someone got the washing in.

Not a bad day for them and not a Galileo in sight. Wootton Bassett is looking promising.

In a hypothetical world from a purely racing point of view and if you could only choose one, would you have 100% exclusivity to Coolmore's stallions or broodmare band?

Probably their broodmares but I Don't think there's a right or wrong answer.

Jul 20, 2023 -- 9:15AM, truehoncho wrote:

Probably their broodmares but I Don't think there's a right or wrong answer.

There probably isn't a right answer but I'd be inclined to agree with your choice. Black type horses are rarely / if ever, conceived from anything below average to begin with.

Whereas by definition a stallion will have had elements of ability to be considered standing in the first place.

Black type horses are rarely / if ever, conceived from anything below average to begin with.

Here are a few high rated horses (110+ Group 2 level) with poor dams.
I am only posting 38 beginning with the letter A from an A to Z list of 464 of 110+.
My data is far for comprehensive.

A rating of 100 is the level for a Group 3 race to maintain its status.
I could give a list of 1,372 horses with a rating of 100+ (Group 3 level) with a dam rated under 70 (BHA average runner rating is 68).


Aaim To Prosper (116) - Bint Al Balad (68)   -48
Abary (123) - Antioquia (62)   -61
Abbadjinn (113) - Abba (54)   -59
Abbashiva (110) - Abba (54)   -56
Able Master (111) - Foresta Verde (42)   -69
Accento (111) - Daleside Ladybird (62)   -49
Access All Areas (110) - Adjalisa (62)   -48
Advanced (119) - Wonderful World (67)   -52
African Story (123) - Blixen (57)   -66
Agimo (110) - Acara (53)   -57
Agnetha (112) - Aerleona (60)   -52
Aguarico (112) - Antioquia (62)   -50
Airwave (123) - Kangra Valley (64)   -59
Ajano (112) - Anona (63)   -49
Akari (117) - Arona (45)   -72
Al Muheer (110) - Dominion Rose (67)   -43
Alaska River (112) - Ariosta (68)   -44
Albuhera (113) - Morning Welcome (57)   -56
Alkalde (117) - Astra (67)   -50
All My Loving (114) - Jude (63)   -51
Almaty (113) - Almaaseh (55)   -58
Alpride (113) - Robert'S Pride (66)   -47
Alte Zeit (113) - Alte Welt (68)   -45
Amira'S Prince (114) - Twice The Ease (45)   -69
Amour Propre (116) - Miss Prim (35)   -81
An Tadh (115) - Tithcar (64)   -51
Ancient Regime (120) - Caterina (44)   -76
Anna Paola (110) - Antwerpen (63)   -47
Anna Pavlova (114) - Wheeler'S Wonder (47)   -67
Antara (118) - Auenpracht (56)   -62
Aratikos (113) - Aratika (42)   -71
Arcalis (110) - Aristocratique (69)   -41
Ashdown Express (122) - Indian Express (68)   -54
Ashpan Sam (111) - Sweet Patoopie (55)   -56
Aspros (115) - Antwerpen (63)   -52
Atlantis Prince (116) - Zoom Lens (64)   -52
Attraction (123) - Flirtation (54)   -69
Auenzar (112) - Auenmaid (66)   -46


Classic winners / top winners from poor dams

Attraction (120) from Flirtation (54)
Desert King (130 from Sabaah (67)
Dream Well (123) from Soul Dream (65)
El Condor Pasa (136) from Saddlers Gal (52)
Kazzia (121) from Khoruna (58)
Sarafina (125) out of Sanarioya (66)
Sulamani (130) from Soul Dream (65)
The Minstrel (134) from Fleur (42)

Mares bred to Frankel

You probably know that Frankel received the best of mares.
There could be no Group winners from Frankel mares rated below, say 70, because mares rated that low would not be allowed to visit Frankel.
Is the reason why "Black type horses are rarely / if ever, conceived from anything below average to begin with." ... because those mares are seldom allowed visit a top stallion.

What is strange is there is only one Group 1 winning mare in the 19 top Frankel runners, no Group 2 winning mare, two Group 3 winning mares, six Listed winning mares.


Mare racing record (in descending rating order of top Frankel sired runners)

Listed winner
Listed winner
Group 3 winner
Listed winner
Listed winner
Unraced
0-100 handicap winner
2nd in a Group 1 (twice)
Grade 3 winner *** (Mirabilis)
Group 1 winner (six times)
Listed winner
0-100 handicap winner (twice)
Maiden winner
Grade 3 winner *** (Mirabilis)
Unraced
Raced in Italy - 4 wins from 32 starts
2nd in a maiden (twice)
Listed winner (twice); 2nd in Gr 1 (twice)

There'll always be outliers I suppose. Great insight, thank you!

By Justify(USA) out of a Galileo mare (or a Sadlers Wells mare) seems to be Coolmore's preference now.  This seems to be a real attempt at improving the breed by combining a full American dirt pedigree with the Sadlers Wells-Galileo line.

I think they are just using their mighty broodmare band to prove their triple crown winner. Not sure it will work if I have to be honest.

they've been pushing the scat daddy line for a while now but doesn't seem to produce classic horses - they themselves were calling no nay never the new danzig last year. sorry but no.

they've done better with deep impact - a guineas, oaks and derby winner from relatively few horses. i think this is a good strategy given the utter dominance of the sunday silence line in japan. they just need a good son of his at stud - saxon warrior hasn't shown much so far

I don't think that line is going to do it over here A_T. Coolmore's are of exceptional quality and can produce champions to various stallions. It's what everyone else's mares work with is the key. I have a feeling Wootton Bassett is their best chance for now.

A_T - Auguste Rodin looked top class before his flop in the King Gworge. Whatever the reason for that, as a son of Deep Impact I think he has every chance to be a good stallion.

Also, Paddington is a horse of exceptional quality and as a son of Siyouni will prove a Godsend for Coolmore's Galileo mares.

highly rated horses from poor dams...


How many poor dams were covered to produce the 1,372 horses that fitted the criteria?

Would it be possible to see how many G1 winners produced G1 winners?
G2 winners producing G2 winners or better
G3 winners producing G3 winners or better etc...

I think that would be an interesting view to look at the % rather than the #

cacique
There are a few difficulties with that type of analysis.

The first difficulty is Group races (Graded in USA) only began in 1971.
Cawston's Pride was the first Group winner in the Ascot 1000 Guineas Trial Stakes in 1971.

Horse racing did not begin in 1971.
Many of the races that formed the pattern (Group and Listed) are centuries old.

If you did an analysis to find Group winners out of Group winning dams then you have to say Cawston's Pride was not out of a Group winning dam.
Cawston Tower, her dam, was born in 1956, long before Group or Listed races.

In 2016 I prepared a database of all Group 1, Group 2, Group 3 winners for GB, IRE, FR, ITY, GER from 1900 to 2015.
Obviously the 1900 to 1970 races preceded the pattern, but were included for analysis.
I ignored Listed races because there are about an equal number of Listed races as there are Group 1, Group 2, Group 3 combined.
And I ignored 2nd place and 3rd place finishes in Group and Listed races because that would bring in almost all the horseracing population.

Think about it.
If Group 1 winners is 1 unit, adding Gr2, Gr3 would be make it 3 units, Listed would make it 6 units, and placed horses in Gr1 Gr2, Gr3, Listed would make it 18 units.
There is double counting as horses can win or place in more than one pattern race.

My analysis gave a figure of 13% Group winners are out of Group race winning dams. i.e. 13% of (Gr1 + Gr2 + Gr3 winners) are out of (Gr1 +Gr2+ Gr3 winning dams).
Stated another way, 87% of Group winning horses are out of dams that DID NOT WIN a Group race (they may have been unraced).

You can spice up the stats by taking a smaller number of races, or restricting yourself to one country, or adding in the thousands of USA Graded races that are imo Graded races in name only.

My conclusion is ratings are a better measure of ability for a few reasons.
1. All runners get a rating even if they never contest a pattern race or if they do run in one and are unplaced.
2. Runners in three runner pattern races are considered to have "earned" black type, and you get farces like the walking race that was the three runner 2009 Ormonde Stakes won by Buccellati.
"Crawled along in 2nd until whole field virtually pulled up after 1f, soon took lead at sedate pace"
3. One reasonable performance in one pattern race (uncompetitive / falsely run) is no yardstick to judge a racing career (but is loved by people selling the produce of a horse with a weak black type "qualification".

* for GB, IRE, FR, ITY, GER from 1900 to 2015.

and USA Grade 1

Thanks for that Kincsem
I do realize the scope is huge and lots of American G1's are not really G1's.

And on your point 3 about the one reasonable performance being the yardstick, unfortunately you can come tailed-off last of 3 in a 3 runner G3 you are black type , and that was reduced from 4th in 1990's, then that's the rules! For all racing (handicaps and black-type in particular) if you cannot finish within a furlong of the winner then you should get a "did not finish"

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

But getting back to my Group 1/2/3 query, would Coolmore be better using good G1 mares or unraced/non black-type mares related to a good sire??


Juddmonte used some "unfashionable" sires and got very good horses. Zamindar is a good example, and Dansili is an exceptional example. Observatory not so much.

Maktoum Al Maktoum used In Excess to get the French guineas winner, Aga Khan used Key of Luck to get a king George winner....


But Coolmore never really seem to think outside the box when it comes to their proven G1 produces who are sisters to G1 stallions.

Youresothrilling is a good example. G2 sister to Giants Causeway, produces 2 G1's in first 2 foals (and then Happily 2 foals later)  and they continue to use Galileo! why not use an American/Australian/South American sire and mix up the blood to breed a good racehorse for them to use.


I don't think they valued their top sires that much, given they let Sadlers Wells cover Mayasta 5 times and Galileo covered her as well!!

cacique

Many breeding decision imo are based on fear of stepping out of line.
You can not be criticised for using a good sire, and the animal will sell.

This approach to selecting a sire for a mare is a bit like throwing a dart when blindfolded with the dartboard turned to face the wall.

A few weeks ago I did a bit of work to see which ancestors in the mares bred to Frankel had matched well with him.
This looked at the six generation pedigrees of the mares of Frankel runners rated over 100 (from 598 Frankel rated runners, 89.3 average for the 598).
The result was a handful of sires and dams that kept appearing in the mares who produced the 100+ Frankel runners.

The "good ingredients" that went well with Frankel mostly matched well with Frankel's dam Kind.
These ingredients can be in the in the 1st; 2nd; 3rd; 4th; 5th generation of the mares, with a few influences further back.

The names are not on everyone's lips:
Empire Maker (m); Chester House (m); Caerleon (m); Venture (m) / Buisson Ardent (m); Sir Cosmo (m); Knight Of The Garter / Castleline; Homage (f); Alleged (m).
The 10 Frankel runners with Empire Maker as damsire averaged 101 (and 1 of that 10 was rated 79).

https://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/frankel_topic39772_page7.html

As it is raining today I am indoors revising the programs to make for smoother running.
My hope is to identify positive influence ancestors in the mares that produced the best Mayson runners.

Chester House was unfortunate to die young, out of an excellent mare!!


You are quite correct on the fear of stepping out of line ,,, and I think every commercial breeder needs to provide what the market wants.

But a non commercial entity (All the Arabs/Aga Khan/Juddmonte/ex Wildenstein/Flaxman/& Coolmore now to a certain extent) are surely looking to better their broodmare band to provide a wide range of animals to win top class races. And the cycle repeats...


Other than a money spinner, and nothing else to do with them, I don't see the purpose of Coolmore National Hunt standing 7 sons of Galileo!!
And then buy in quality stallions, that in another era would be perfectly suitable as flat sires (Crystal ocean/In Swoop/Getaway/Maxios/Ocavango/Vadamos)
Complete short term thinking in my opinion.

Well if they don't stand them someone else might and as flat sires. That may come back to bite them. Although only 13% of group winners came from group winning mares I'm pretty sure that group winning mares are a small proportion of the breeding population and hence proportionality they are superior producers. I'm not sure thinking out of the box will necessarily result in better stock, tbf Coolmore seem to be doing pretty well at the moment and have the best stallion roster by miles at the moment. The Aga Khan and Juddmonte may have better stallions than them just now but I can't see that prevailing too much longer.

cacique
I used In Swoop this year, planning a flat horse, as he is a very attractive price, nice size, good legs, and his race record is excellent.
He might not be hugely popular with NH breeders as he is about 16.1, and they seem to prefer stallions of about 19 hands.

I think this quote in Odds, Sods and Racing Certs by Graham Sharp could also be applied to Coolmore's management of stallions.
"You should treat every horse as a good horse until you know it isn't.  The minute you know that, you should get rid of it, yesterday if possible." David Gandolfo
That is why Coolmore have a good stallion roster, and a good broodmare band.  Sell those you do not want at a good price.

Coolmore are kingpins at the moment, there is no doubt about that.

But these things tend to run in cycles and rarely last much beyond the vision of the founding people.

Doing very well with Justify so far -especially with Galileo mares.

Well what a season it has been for them. I suppose there may be  the view that the over hyped COT's disappointment may have put have put a bit of a downer on it but they have certainly made up for it in spades else where. WB looks the real deal and Lake Victoria could yet be the greatest filly that ever raced. Next season looks like a belter for them.

AND they didn’t have to squander zillions at the sales to create a ‘buoyant’ market as others stepped up to the plate for a change. Win Win.

Absolutely. Mind you they'd better hope not too many of those expensive yearlings find their way to Ralph Beckett's yard. They may not find it so easy to win all our big races. A really decent bloke turning (or already turned) into a very top class trainer.

How things can change truehoncho! Coolmore have almost a monopoly this year so far apart from the Godolphin wins at Newmarket. O'Brien first 4 in the Derby?? Beckett may well have a good year but so far not much to shout about.

the investment in wootton bassett seems to be paying dividends

May 17, 2025 -- 8:28PM, A_T wrote:

the investment in wootton bassett seems to be paying dividends

Really does. I was skeptical and did question would they train on as 3 Yr olds but it seems they blend perfectly with the Galileo mares.

Galileo (1998) "nicks well with" Danehill (1986) mares - 12 years difference in age
Wootton Bassett (2008) "nicks well with" Galileo (1998) mares - 10 years difference in age

The thoroughbred generation is about 11 years.
All that is happening is the present hot sire is mated with the daughters of the previous hot sire.

Tbf not all outcross attempts have been successful. War Front was a disaster.

Wootton Bassett has been heavily overpriced by Coolmore from the start, IMO. Yes he may be coming good now, but the hype was ludicrous.At 300k euros is he seriously a better stallion than Sea The Stars or Kingman?

Double this evening. 2 Yr olds are on fire

Anyone with any knowledge on why there's only 1 Justify 2 Yr old at Ballydoyle this year?

Didn't take them long to get over the loss of Galileo. I didn't really rate Wootton Bassett to start with but the winners are flowing now. Australia was also a slow burner but now has a dual Derby winner.

Coolmore’s world is being turned upside down now alright.

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/news/coolmores-star-stallion-wootton-bassett-dies-at-the-age-of-17-afvdY2U65fdx/

Big loss.