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09 Oct 20 12:43
Date Joined: 29 Jun 02
| Topic/replies: 31,877 | Blogger: workrider's blog
Amazing that some of these didn't turn up at some of the earlier sales to support the industry, after all not ALL their stallions are superstars  yet none of them supported their own lesser lights at stud. I wonder will it come back to haunt them...
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Report workrider October 9, 2020 12:44 PM BST
At the sales as well is what I meant to say.
Report Formtwist October 9, 2020 6:52 PM BST
The whole business is shot to bits - previously committed owners deserting in droves, huge numbers of "normal" trainers struggling to survive and prize money that is not going to improve any time soon with racecourse income sources mostly vanished this year. Top end there are always millionaires to buy but for everyone else including me it is time to have a long hard look at whether it is right to mate mares in 2021. The foals have a life span of more than 20 years and as owners of riding horses are also hit by every Covid issue out there, a serious welfare issue is obvious.
Report workrider October 10, 2020 3:15 PM BST
Formtwist I know a friend of mine who has 5 in training is also seriously thinking of packing it in. The prize money is a massive issue over in the U.K. we are not as bad over here but he says why have horses in training when not only can you not see them running on the track but due to level 3 over here if your horse is trained in another county you can't even go to the yard..Tough times ahead...
Report truehoncho October 10, 2020 5:30 PM BST
Not a chance. I heard all this in 2008/09. Three years time this will all be a memory and horse racing will be as strong as ever. Yes prize money is **** but it has never made much of a difference. Drag this post up in 3 years and tell me if I was wrong. For everyone that goes skint this year there is someone making money from it. The working will class end up paying for covid and they don't buy many horses and keep gambling no matter how skint they are.
Report Theoneandonly October 11, 2020 12:41 PM BST
Truehoncho think you are completely wrong unless BHA and horse racing leaders make a massive change to the industry. Yes working class dont generally buy racehorses but you're talking about massive sectors of businesses barely trading in 2020 and potentially well into 2021 the way it is going. With the return on investment so crap for owners and generally being treated like mugs for years with prize money unfortunately it is going to come back to haunt the racing industry unless changes are made.
Report Big Black Cat October 11, 2020 2:32 PM BST
Its fair to say that in my own circle of close friends within a well know syndicate, every single one of us is reducing our share interest and  NOT replacing those shares with new ones.  Its a small sample but a worrying trend.
Report truehoncho October 11, 2020 2:39 PM BST
Truehoncho think you are completely wrong --  well don't forget to bring this thread up in 3 years. I know that some owners have not had runners this year because of the covid and may well abstain next year if things don't improve but it is only a temporary blip. BBC there are plenty out there ready to step in when you and your friends leave. The minute the crowds are back all will be forgotten, only working people will be affected long term.
Report jonnyrotten October 11, 2020 7:56 PM BST
up coming car crash imho, all the big players in the owning/breeding in Europe aged, their offspring not showing the same passion for the sport, gambling seen as toxic, animal welfare on the agenda of companies that used to be big sponsors, BHA clueless & out of touch, might be different in IRE but in UK youngsters don't want to work in racing
Report truehoncho October 12, 2020 12:37 PM BST
UK youngsters don't want to work in any sort of outside environment. Plenty of eastern European youngsters happy to come to Britain to work. BHA have always been out of touch. As for gambling, are you serious? It is one of the biggest expanding industries in the world and the weaker the economy the more people gamble. Racing and bloodstock isn't just sport its massive business that the rich and wealthy have always wanted to be involved in (horses generally are loved by them). Its not palatable I know but this sport doesn't revolve around the working class and the main players in it don't care about the working class. In fact their horses mean far more to them!!
Report Formtwist October 12, 2020 1:00 PM BST
Truehoncho, you are so far in dreamland it is scary. Next year is not only still Covid-19 regulations for a very long time, but it is post Brexit too. Immigrant labour is not going to be as easy as was from anywhere. Gambling by the greatest part now is in sports other than horse racing and that includes online casinos. Your description of the sort of people that have wanted to be involved in horses are the top end breeding quality people, not those remotely interested in the level of horse you breed, and they are by far the majority past retirement age. Younger wealthy regard horse-racing as cruel (whip), prefer most other sports and social things instead, and I echo everything Jonnyrotten says on the subject. Training fees have to go up to cover rising feed costs after a disastrous arable crop year and staff wages and prize money will only recover if the fixture list is halved. The financial equation of ownership is tilted way too far the wrong way, and there is nothing significantly non-financial to compensate.
Report truehoncho October 12, 2020 2:26 PM BST
I see your reasoning Formtwist but come back in 3 years. Everybody said this 10/12 years ago but 3 years later everything was taking off again. Racing just isn't the same as other industries. I know loads of owners and most are saying to me they hope they will get some cheap ones at the sales!! Even the sales are better than 2009/10 after the crash. I have sympathy for your views but nobody that matters in racing really gives a monkeys about prizemoney and it really isn't that expensive to have a horse in training. Still, we will see.
Report truehoncho October 12, 2020 2:47 PM BST
And by the way Formwtwist, I think you will find that you will get cheaper training fees next year. A couple of my friends have told the trainers that if the fees are not reduced for next year they will look else where and my trainer when I said of thinking of taking a filly out quickly offered me a big reduction (which I didn't take). If you have a 0-75 racehorse you probably will not get any raceday expenses next year. I see adverts for £32 a day training all in and I have a friend who has a horse in training at an all weather track for £22.50 a day. Only the poor suffer. Its crap but its true.
Report sageform October 12, 2020 7:21 PM BST
Anyone know the demographic of owners and racegoers? I suspect the over 50s make up a big majority of both and they will not be easily tempted back to either ownership or attending a racecourse even if Covid19 recedes in a couple of years time. Even if you were a multimillionaire, buying a horse you might hardly ever see is not attractive.
Report truehoncho October 15, 2020 2:14 PM BST
Well it seems the sales are holding up.Even the ones I send to Formtwist. I am even more confident that racing will thrive after this covid period.
Report sageform October 15, 2020 7:45 PM BST
I am pleased for those involved in breeding and trading horses if the market is OK. Like the stock market, I can see no rational reason for it not to collapse but it does not.
Report truehoncho October 16, 2020 11:15 AM BST
As I have been saying since March when all this business started Sageform, its the working class that are going to pay for it not the rich. Horse racing is big part of the very wealthy's way of life and it always has been. The 2008 crash directly hit their wealth (or at least risked their wealth) but this business does not. The government has spent billions (maybe trillions) supporting big business during all this and the banking sector (where a lot of horse racing owners come from) will be living off the interest from funding the government for the next decade at least. We may have a year or two of restrictions but this will soon go away (in any crazy conspiracy theory it can't benefit anyone to protract this too much longer). The predictions of a car crash and the rest of it are way of the mark and are more to do with peoples unhappiness with the way the sport is administered (the BHA in particular who no one can deny are inept).
There is now a fund administrated by the ROA to support owners that need financial help to keep their horses in training. That pretty much says it all really. In all this economic tragedy for working people, if you own a racehorse you can get financial support!
Report workrider October 18, 2020 11:36 AM BST
Truehoncho, I am getting sick of your working class bias, for your information MOST punters are working class and without the WORKING class punter this game dies a death. No Coolmore no Godolfin without these working class punters, why I hear you ask . The answer is simply this , those WORKING class punters keep the game going not the Owners Breeders etc but the WORKING class .Without the WORKING class betting on this game of ours NOTHING happens, Coolmore  Goldolfin don't  exist if nobody punts on the horses and guess who the punters are, correct , the working class . So come down off your high horse no pun intended and face reality....
Report roadrunner46 October 18, 2020 11:48 AM BST

Oct 18, 2020 -- 11:36AM, workrider wrote:

Truehoncho, I am getting sick of your working class bias, for your information MOST punters are working class and without the WORKING class punter this game dies a death. No Coolmore no Godolfin without these working class punters, why I hear you ask . The answer is simply this , those WORKING class punters keep the game going not the Owners Breeders etc but the WORKING class .Without the WORKING class betting on this game of ours NOTHING happens, Coolmore

Report roadrunner46 October 18, 2020 11:52 AM BST
pmslLaugh i know someone who has lost over a two hundred thousand pounds betting horses/dogs/football, i will get every pound of that money back and some,
that is guaranteed
Report truehoncho October 18, 2020 2:33 PM BST
I think you need to grow up a little bit Workrider and read my posts properly. I have no working class bias ans my points were the same as yours. The truth is that the working class pay for everything but have little choice where their money is spent. My point has been in this thread that the least affected are the wealthy and they love horse racing and will continue to spend money on it over the next coming years. If you are deluding yourself that the recession follows from this covid crisis will effect anyone other than the working class you are mistaken. As I keep saying come back in three years, but please read my posts properly.
Report sageform October 18, 2020 8:17 PM BST
Your point may be true of the very wealthy but many syndicate members are self employed with a few thousand a year to spend on their racing. An awful lot of those will no longer have the cash. Anyone whose business is in travel or hospitality will be struggling and those living on interest and dividends are also down about 80% of previous years income. You would need at least two million of spare cash invested to earn one years training fees of £20k. How many of the £100,000 plus yearlings were bought by UK owners I wonder. I know it doesn't matter if they are trained and raced here but for how long unless prize money recovers?
Report roadrunner46 October 19, 2020 7:14 AM BST
this covid crisis wont be just affecting the working class, everyone will be feeling the pinch, few inconsistencies there, the wealthy least affected - will effect  anyone other than the working classLaugh
Report truehoncho October 19, 2020 10:13 AM BST
I know what you are saying Sageform and I don't disagree that much. My point is and always has been that it will recover within a few years. The reason it will recover is because it is patronised by the richest people on the planet. The Rothschilds, Shk Mo, The Royal Family etc. They have massive breeding operations and it is a generational thing with them. How many £100k+ yearlings have ever been bought by UK owners? At the other end of the scale the reason there is so much low class racing is that it is profitable for the betting industry. The low class prize money has already been reinstated to pre Covid levels. I think the predictions for the severe decline of racing is wrong. As I keep saying we will see.
Report workrider October 20, 2020 4:14 PM BST
My friend is sending 4 to the HIT sale, but funnily enough he said he might buy a couple, strange or what. I get your point re Coolmore Godolphin , my point been neither of them would exist if it wasn't for the punters, who are 95% working class...
Report sageform October 22, 2020 10:00 AM BST
Not sure that is right with Godolphin. They are in it as a sport, I doubt if they bet, and prize money is a drop in the ocean-they probably pay more out in race sponsorship than they get in prize money. For Coolmore it is mostly about the breeding operation but they do target all of the most valuable races so clearly like the prize money aspect. The real hit will be among the owners with 3 or 4 horses whose business income is down and the chance to "show off" to friends or clients by taking them racing no longer exists.
Report workrider October 25, 2020 12:41 PM GMT
Sageform , have a look at  Godolfin Stallion fees and work out the numbers , they could improve their sponsorship 10,000 and still make a huge profit .What they spend at the sales is minuscule compared to what they receive in Stallion fees alone...
Report sageform October 27, 2020 7:43 PM GMT
I didn't mention Godolphin stallion fees. I said prize money, but I take the point that they have plenty of other income streams. Not least oil wells!
Report truehoncho October 28, 2020 9:11 AM GMT
I don't know if Godolphin do make money from their stallion fee's. I have always thought they subsidise them. Any decent one's they don't sell noms. The cost to keep that place must be fortunes, have you ever been there workrider? They are a wonderful outfit to deal with and they certainly never skimp on anything. Personally I think the stallions make a loss.
Report potentialmillionaire October 28, 2020 10:16 AM GMT
Yes truehonch it is hard to say what Darley make off their their stallions.

They pay eye watering sums for those that they buy in Workrider and it is as far away from reality to suggest it is the stud fee multiplied by the number of mares covered as it is possible to get, when you come to tot things up.

They don’t own Dubawi and they paid massive amounts for Golden Horn and Too Darn Hot and probably Cracksmen yet probably own less than 50% of them too.

There are so many deals going on - and most of them legit, yes it happens! - to really begin to estimate how lucrative the stallion operation Is.
Report truehoncho October 28, 2020 10:44 AM GMT
Hi PotM, hope you are well. As Sageform says they are more interested in being the best than making money. All those club stallions and foal shares (which in the end cost them money) are unlikely to be profitable. The set up they have in Newmarket is substantial (to say the least) and I doubt their stallions pay for that. They contribute many, many times more financially to the sport than they ever take out (and pay the best wages) so to rely on them for further sponsorship may be going to the well once too often.
Report workrider October 28, 2020 5:28 PM GMT
I can go to Kildangan stud anytime , a very beautiful place.
Report truehoncho October 28, 2020 5:55 PM GMT
Imagine how much it costs to run.
Report workrider October 28, 2020 7:59 PM GMT
40,000 a pop and 200 mares for one Stallion alone that's without the more expensive ones...A goldmine...
Report truehoncho October 29, 2020 9:45 AM GMT
I doubt if any such stallion exists workrider but even if he did its only 8 million. You will need a few more of them to cover Godolphin and Darley's expenses.
Report jonnyrotten October 29, 2020 9:12 PM GMT
Cheveley park the latest to say they are cutting back, unless there is a reason for new investors to step in there will be a big shrinkage in HIT numbers. look at the HIT sale huge amount of horses leaving our shores
Report truehoncho November 1, 2020 10:47 AM GMT
CP had too many. Pivotal no longer funding the operation as he did and no replacement hence the reduction in numbers.
Report jonnyrotten November 2, 2020 6:18 PM GMT
I don't disagree with those points Honcho, but who will replace them? the offspring of the big firms you mention have shown very little appetite for getting involved at anyway near the same level, no hook to encourage newbie's to get involved
Report truehoncho November 3, 2020 9:46 AM GMT
You may be right JR. I think the owners of CP are more interested in racing NH now.
Report Formtwist November 3, 2020 1:14 PM GMT
It is not that Truehoncho, the NH is to extend the interest year-round for them in a quality way. The future racing aim revolves wholly around Ulysses so the rest are only fringe interest from a breeding perspective.
Report truehoncho November 3, 2020 2:19 PM GMT
Thanks Formtwist. I hope Ulysses works out for them.
Report workrider November 15, 2020 12:31 PM GMT
Truehoncho , had a look at Godolphings Stallions and their fees , 75,000 for N.O.T. maybe 170 mares this season and their old man Dubwi is said to be covering for min 250,000 a pop and you still think they don't make a profit . As an aside how many studs with quality Stallions have gone under in the past 25yrs .Unlike ordinary businesses they just seem to grow and grow...
Report truehoncho November 15, 2020 3:13 PM GMT
They definitely will not make a profit in my opinion. Not even close to it. They don't really care, why should they. The guy owns a country and racing is his hobby. I doubt they will sell 50 noms for NOT and D combined. They will all be foal shares and deals with their connections (rabbah etc).
Report potentialmillionaire November 15, 2020 3:52 PM GMT
I’m somewhere between the two of you!
They pay an absolute fortune for the ones they buy in.
They don’t own Dubawi or great chunks of some of the others and I reckon they spend 500k for my lunch in July for an instance of how much the place costs to operate.
One thing that is quite clear is that it is most definitely NOT a case of multiplying mares covered by the stud fee if you are having a guesstimate.
Report sageform November 16, 2020 8:55 AM GMT
Some friends of mine did a foal share with Godolphin on a Halling cover of their mare Emma Peel many years back but sadly the resulting offspring was not successful. The mare subsequently produced Nameitwhatyoulike who was a prolific winner by a much cheaper stallion in Trade Fair. The family goes way back to a jumping mare, Wayward Damsel, who produced a good chaser in Cuckolder and a miler by Relic called Polyandrist. Poly produced Trigamy, a high class sprinter who was dam of Emma Peel, a listed winner. One of the latest good chasers from the same family is Parsnip Pete who was trained by Tom George.
Report cacique November 28, 2020 4:04 PM GMT
They don’t own Dubawi,,, potential millionaire

Who owns him?
Report potentialmillionaire November 29, 2020 6:52 PM GMT
Sheikh Mohammed Obaid.

Yellow with black spots!
Report cacique November 30, 2020 10:51 PM GMT
I know he had zomaradah in his silks, I just assumed the maktoums owned them all.

Like Saeed Manana owning night of thunder, in his silks but a maktoum horse,

I thought Rabbah Bloodstock was for all sheikie momo's friends/family.
Report Wilycayote February 16, 2021 8:49 PM GMT
Always thought Sheikh Mohammed was a prick
Report Wilycayote February 25, 2021 6:23 PM GMT
currently watching BBC news re captured Princesses. 

I think Darley/Godolphin will be a diminishing force from now on.
Report truehoncho February 26, 2021 9:28 AM GMT
I doubt it Wily. I know what you mean but so much of the business and Newmarket rely on him I can't see much being done. In fairness this sport has always been patronised by rather unsavoury characters. I doubt the royal family has been squeaky clean over the Centuries.
Report truehoncho April 14, 2021 12:44 PM BST
Well the breeze up median for day one increased on 2019. I don't think it will be a bad year for sales this year and all the big players are in. I think those that got their mares in foal last year will be in for a good foal sales this year.
Report truehoncho April 23, 2021 9:38 AM BST
If Doncaster Breeze Ups is anything to go by, there shouldn't be any problems selling foals and yearlings this year.
Report truehoncho May 1, 2021 1:07 PM BST
Another good sale. I think the sport has put last year behind it. Looks good for the  next few years.
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