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Monsieur Bond
28 Jan 20 09:25
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Date Joined: 01 Jun 06
| Topic/replies: 74 | Blogger: Monsieur Bond's blog
I'm aware there is/was a fair few 'older heads' who used to frequent this forum and would remember the old owner/breeder days and i'm curious to know yours and anyone else's thoughts as to whether the introduction of namely Coolmore and Darley amongst others, who whilst contributing billions to the countries GDP and created thousands of jobs have now made the UK and Ireland so reliant on their money and the employment they offer that we're so blinded there's no thought as to what will happen after they've gone.

In the Industry, given the:

*high number of foals born each year
*the number of small breeders who do it at a loss, can't compete and are leaving the industry
*the limited number of foals who actually make it to the racecourse
*the large number of foals, mares and racehorses who get slaughtered
*the 'demand' for an increased fixture list with each race to ideally have 8 runners to offer a viable betting product.

Will we and would you want to see a return to the old days when there was less racing, (assumed) less inbreeding, a sounder thoroughbred with focus on stamina and maturity rather than speed and a lot less overproduction and resultant culling if it meant a lot less employment and contribution to the economy?

What happens when John Magnier, Michael Tabor, Sheikh Mohammed, Khalid Abdullah et all pop their clogs? Are their children all waiting in the wings with the passion to carry on?

I'd love to know if the Industry is prepared for that eventuality, I personally want it to happen mainly to ease the feeling of guilt around overproduction and slaughter.
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Report yer ma January 29, 2020 1:27 PM GMT
I feel you are pretty certain of your views so not sure what one can add.  These bloodstock giants have been at this properly since the early 1980s so that's a long time and significant other players have come in too.  I suspect racing is no more or less prepared for the loss of big players than any other sport propped up by a relative few (rugby, arguably football, motorsport).  The health of the NH game is probably an indication that there are plenty rich people happy to spend on horses.  Its the dearth of the middle/lower market that is the problem and that is overcome in other countries in part by a Tote and syndicates. Not sure what hard evidence there is of an unsounder TB and also don't see the connection between less racing and less production.  PS I've never 'slaughtered' anything - overproduction is a product of greed or stupidity/Self-delusion.
Report truehoncho January 29, 2020 9:00 PM GMT
I think the sport is fine and small breeders have plenty of opportunity to breed decent horses at a sensible price. As you have pointed out there are plenty of races for the moderate horses. I too have never slaughtered a horse and never will.
Report proxygene January 30, 2020 12:02 AM GMT
I think the word cull can lead to a wide misconception too; removed from the premises, broodmare band or thoroughbred gene pool doesnt usually mean slaughtered.
Report sageform January 30, 2020 9:04 AM GMT
The old style owner/breeders are gone for good. Juddmonte and the Aga Khan studs may continue but Lord Howard, now Plantation stud, Oppenheimer, Meon Valley, Clivedon etc. may all disappear in the next few years. However there is a lot of spending power in the big syndicates such as Elite, Highclere etc. and King Power are the latest example of new wealth coming into the market. I do think that the problem is much worse in Ireland where Coolmore not only breed but own the majority of Group winners. Galileo and his sons do not dominate the GB sire tables to anything like the way he dominates in Ireland.
Report Big Black Cat January 30, 2020 8:07 PM GMT
Too many bang average horses going to stud, means that there are lots of very cheap stallions about, which encourage people to 'have a go' at breeding a horse. Maybe if you set a 'number'(rating) that a colt has to get to before it gets to stud, then it would mean less stallions, so less covers(?) and hence less production.....??

Perhaps a premium could be added to races that encourage the breeding of horses with more stamina (something like Plus 10 but specifically for maidens of a mile and over), to get away from the inescapable need for speed in the breed too?

PS Elite are a busted flush IMHO.  I will not be renewing this year.  They are skint and are now proposing to sell all of the best bloodstock to plug the gap including the Frankel x Marlinka, and no doubt the Lope de Vega x Tribute Act.  Royal Academy was right.  I'm just funding their breeding programmenow so sod em.

I have bits of 4 x 2yo and 4 x 3yo with Middleham Park, and thats where my interest will be in future.
Report sageform January 31, 2020 7:26 PM GMT
Interesting BBC. The only 2 syndicates I had a share in were limited to 12 shares and were run on a small scale. Both horses won decent races. Lucky Bay and So Now.
Report truehoncho January 31, 2020 8:05 PM GMT
There have been lots of bang average racehorses that have gone to stud and made good stallions. 'Have a go breeders' sounds like 'breeders that don't fit my particular prejudices' Not sure what the old style owner breeder was but there are plenty of people breeding horses to race that are not million/billionaires. They may not turn up in morning suits at Royal Ascot but they are there. Too many people talk a lot of old **** about horse racing and harp back to the days when working class people should only be shoveling the **** and dobbing their hat to Lord and Lady Privileged. In any other modern sport they call it the grass roots and you can have as much fun at Newcastle in a 0-50 with a horse you bred yourself as you can playing Sunday league football. As far as I am concerned thank **** for all weather racing and cheap stallions because it means I can play too.
Report Big Black Cat January 31, 2020 8:40 PM GMT
I wasn't talking about Breeders breeding for their own pleasure.  For the record, I'm working class too. No silver spoon here. My post wasn't designed to bash anyone-it was an attempt to propose a solution for overproduction.

MPR syndicates are between about 10 and 20.

Elite have been unlucky with foals over the last few years, but they have made some awful financial decisions.  Like keeping unraced 4 and 5 yo fillies in training. And keeping too many mares.  The 5 yo nears her debut, the 4yo got covered.  They also withdrew a commercially attractive mare from the mares sale as she had a cut, only for her to produce a deformed foal a few weeks later. They spent a lot of the Marsha money on a really nice equine facility, but they are now skint, and to balance the books, the best progeny will be going through the ring.  Sad, but the best chances of another good flat horse will be going to someone else.
Report truehoncho January 31, 2020 9:16 PM GMT
Over production is a term used by breeders when they don't get the returns they think they are entitled to for their stock. In reality it is poor production not over production. I haven't missed a yearling sale at Newmarket for the last 5 years and NEVER seen a nice horse go unsold. Plenty haven't met the reserves but that is up to the breeder.
Report Big Black Cat January 31, 2020 11:26 PM GMT
Fair point-well made. But poor production comes from breeding poor stallions to poor mares?
Report truehoncho February 1, 2020 10:32 AM GMT
Its not my job or your job to tell anyone if their mares or stallions are poor. If we were that clever we would be buying all the best yearlings and making fortunes. We are not.
Report Big Black Cat February 1, 2020 5:54 PM GMT
No we're not.
Report victors February 9, 2020 10:52 PM GMT
Back to the original question. I think they are very different entities. John Magnier has made a lot of money out of his racing/breeding operation, Sheikh Mohammed is showing a massive net loss (easily over a billion, but hard to estimate as what is the current value of his bloodstock assets and could the market handle their sudden disposal?). The market will respond in different ways to the departure of each, with a change in terms of stallion rosters in Ireland and the UK and competition at the highest level on the track and at the top level in the sales ring...
Report victors February 9, 2020 10:52 PM GMT
Back to the original question. I think they are very different entities. John Magnier has made a lot of money out of his racing/breeding operation, Sheikh Mohammed is showing a massive net loss (easily over a billion, but hard to estimate as what is the current value of his bloodstock assets and could the market handle their sudden disposal?). The market will respond in different ways to the departure of each, with a change in terms of stallion rosters in Ireland and the UK and competition at the highest level on the track and at the top level in the sales ring...
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