Stallion fees 2019

Well with 3 runners rated over 80 and a yearling average at a guess of about 15k he's flying - I reckon Dubawi had better look out. Is Gregorian now private JohnnyM?
I f@@@ing despair.

If you think a stallion with zero stakes winners and a 2018 yearling average of £12K doesn't merit a price hike almost double that of last year then I'm sorry, the game's just not for you.

Indeed when I'm finished in December I fear the bank manager is going to refer me to your advice!

I know I am always moaning about stallion fees but how can these moderate stallions command such prices?

And dropping Aclaim by 3K is curious too.

Yes. &Yes.

When you look at this weeks sales which are the strongest sales there are and you see the HUNDREDS of yearlings selling below the price of the stud fee even before you tot up those that scraped past that barometer but were still big losers, well it really does beggar belief.

Aclaim was too much last year but he filled because he was one of a limited number fitting that profile that we all like commercially. Without doubt he needed a readjustment this year and even though I shelled out the full whack I accept that.

25% is too much though.

What price Kingman next season? (FYI, I can’t afford him anyway!)

Plus, will iffraaj come down in price this year? Trying to find a “proven sire” option that might just be in my reach.

I am not sure Kingman should go up by much, after all he is 55k and that's a lot of money when he has only done as well as a horse of his opportunity could be expected. They aren't looking too robust either but I daresay they will feel they have to go up to promote him as the real deal.
Iffraaj is deffo on the cold list and should drop considerably in my view but he occupies that twilight world as a darling of Rabbah and he hoovers up all of those connection's mares that don't get into Dubawi. Maybe they'll all go to Coolmore now?!
What about Dark Angel?
By his standards a shocking set of 2yo's. His sales have 'suffered' accordingly and his 3 early sons at stud have disappointed.

Entirely agree PotM. Which begs the question of the fee Darley dare set for Harry not exactly an Angel.

Considerably less than if they'd gone last year for sure. Still that's racing. Up down up down, then down again!

I haven't got much to add other than to agree about DA, his sons are not cutting it. The market is very flat for yearlings and it is about time stallion fees reflected it. The lower end need to start offering more incentives to the breeder. All 3/4th year stallions should be 1/2 first season price and ffr for a start.

all good points above

can anyone clever solve my "affordable proven stallion" conundrum in UK? (where are the new Bahamian Bounty / Compton Places?)

with gutaifan being a precocious 2yo just like his sire, will be expecting lot better from this son next season, as always dependant on the matings, if they are getting low quality mares every year

Wily, what is your "affordable" limit in this exercise? If you are eyeing up Iffraaj even dropped in fee then it might be a generous sort of budget?

What about Footstepsinthesand?

good call on Footsteps but was hoping to find an option in uk

appreciate that you have to up the budget a bit for a proven sire. It would be nice to have one in the 10-20k bracket.  A year ago I thought Helmet might fit this, but he's a bit of "one horse" sire now and been carted off to Germany.

OK for speed Bated Breath, Dutch Art and I'd say Charm Spirit and Sea the Moon, as although first season now so not exactly proven, their capacity to get quicker juveniles has surprised me. Despite under that limit I'd still look hard at Mayson. There are some very classy but stamina sires too of course like Nathaniel in this bracket, and if you aren't focussed on selling, Sixties Icon has very good stats. Good luck!

Some good stuff spoken on here lately, but I have never worked out why anyone thinks Bated Breath is a good stallion.

Sir Prancelot, Mayson, Foxwedge, Casamento - all ranked above him in GB/IRE 3rd season sire list. and BB would have had much the best opportunity of this group.


He is a sheep in wolf's clothing. He just benefits from the Juddmonte branding which papers over the cracks.

Personally I would swerve Bated Breath on conformation issues, but no getting away from the sales medians for fillies as well as colts if that is what you need, which can't be said for Sir Prancelot or Casamento and Foxwedge has gone. Gets a fair enough percentage of two year olds akin to Mayson bettered by Dutch Art.

Agree BB is a poor stallion, I doubt his averages will hold up going forward. Fast Company (Ireland sorry) is doing well with moderate mares and may be good value at 8/9k. It's a tough area to get value.

I have a couple of mares in foal to Fast Company and love the horse and is well able to throw a really good one. Obviously ain't that commercial but in reality aside from the handful of 'super sires' what actually is really commercial?

Love the way Coolmore are trying to talk Australia up at the moment when the reality is they have abandoned him already.  They all look slow don't they?

Agree with comments above on Bated Breath.

Charm Spirits in general don't improve for their runs. I would be very wary of them.

Dutch Art solid and has produced plenty of 100 plus performers.

Couldn't agree more NEVIS B, truly commercial waxes and wanes purely in line with what is currently in vogue. Other than the very few it's more about guess work given the time lapse between conception and sale.

I think that Equiano is the heir apparent to Bahamian and Compton but he is in a commercial slump at the moment and his ability to handle big books unlike Bahamian and Compton means he has more opportunity to p1ss people off.

I can't help thinking that all the Charm Spirits that got out this year, which really couldn't have been expected, might be victims of over ambition for them at 2. I wonder what the stouter patiently handled ones will have in store for next year. Gosden's ran well in the Futurity although not the strongest edition admittedly.

I tried for a Bated Breath this year and spent the first half of the season pleased I hadn't succeeded, the middle of the season hacked off and now the end of the season more relaxed again!

Perhaps that sums up the game. . .

As Potm was probably thinking when he tried...Bated Breath gets nice sales horses and he'll churn out a decent amount of black type ones for the next few years out of decent mares (including mine fingers-crossed).  Or you could spend the same 10k on all manner of poorly bred, moderate Grp 2 animals.  Lethal Force isn't as bad as people seem to have decided so might revive (difficult).  Sea the Moon is a surprising one but like Sixties Icon I think it'll have limited impact on his sales.  Charm Spirit has done enough to let them maintain his too high fee.  Dutch Art burned a lot of fingers a few years ago but the might have healed.  I've always like HRE (had an argument on here many years ago on his relative merits vs Monsieur Bond at 10k...).  Havana Gold (might go up too much) and Dawn Approach has actually done ok (esp outside UK) and fee might be reduced.  Need a crystal ball if you want to be spot on commercially

Camacho, he’ll probably get a hike this year though

Coulsty (yes, look him up) coming to Norman Court.

For a season on his way to warmer climates?

Nunnery fees as usual very fair. Tasleet had a busy juvenile season, does anyone know of any physical reason why he was so sparely raced thereafter?

Ground?  Wouldn't surprise me if got jarred at Curragh. I am guessing but that was one run on fast ground this year. Didn't come back the same after it.

Siyouni E100,000 !

seems a lot when I can only think of one top class runner of his this season. Lol

my guess Kingman will be 75k



I can but dream.....

You can buy a piece of Siyouni at Arqana, 1/50th I think.

Well let's hope Tweenhills save the day (not likely) because right now the b@st@rds appear to wanting their pound of flesh.
I don't think anyone will be sharing their thoughts on what's value, if any, until they've signed a contract!

With Lightning Spear launched at what seems to me a hefty £8,500 I think it very unlikely that Tweenhills will save the day! Darley have set an interesting challenge to them though with Cracksman's fee and I don't know that Zoustar will be sold as anything other than a serious horse given his performance so far in Australia. Big cut in fee for Ulysses though might make him value in his new £10k - £20k bracket, as he's had the usual top patronage first season.

There are a lot of new stallions but I think they are expensive on the face of it. I expect there will be plenty dealing. No Darley Club offerings this year. Is Hawkbill ok at £7.5k? If I was in Ireland I think Belardo may be worth a gamble. 20k for Expert Eye seems steep. At least in a couple of years there will be plenty of 3rd season stallions to gamble with.

I wouldn’t use Unfortunately if he was free, but still expected him to be 5k

Expert eye a bit steep at 20k

Have we had a price for Nathaniel yet? He’s a real tricky one to assess commercially

I'm only an interested reader rather than an actual breeder but thought

- Expert Eye is expensive
- Camelot would be more expensive
- Zoffany and Mastercraftsman look reasonable

Cracksman's fee strikes me as very fair, and should attract lots of support. Siyouni's fee is a joke, as is No No Nay Never's. Camelot is a stallion I have a lot of time for. Does anyone know what has happened to Dutch Art? Does he have fertility problems?

We have a winner!!!! the most ridiculous stallion fee increase goes to.....


Sixties Icon. (up from 5,000 to £6,000)


now, I am not saying he is a bad stallion. I actually think he does quite well. But his 2018 yearling average is £2,216!!!
His last year's foal sale average was £2,304.

According to the RP his sales average was £9750. If I recall correctly the figure you quote was the price of a single short yearling at the February sale. Not many make the sale ring, whether down to vendor choice or the sales companies attitude I don't know. You were spot on with Kingman, and Nathaniel is now £25k. Equiano down to £6,000.

I use the "Global stallions" app for my data. but agree, not many Sixties go through the sales.

Nathaniel 2018 yearling average £42,191 (down from £53,771 in 2017)

Zygote, Dutch Art is listed as private for 2019. From the Return of Mares 2018 both results and double coverings it would seem he is indeed sadly having fertility issues.

Roaring Lion 40k. About what I expected.

Zoustar 25k. Think they'll struggle at that. A bit too punchy. he might be a good stallion, but think it will be very difficult selling a zoustar yearling to a Eng/Ire trainer down the line.

How do you think Zoustar compares to say a Fastnet Rock Wliy? He was a lot more money and they got him going albeit with Danehill to hang him on.
I guess they will rev him up at the foal sales and spend big bucks getting him in to the consciousness of the buyers by hook or by crook.
It's the cheapie without a big promo budget that is going to get overlooked I reckon.

Camacho up to €12k which seems very reasonable in the current climate. 

Anyone heard what Dandy Man is going to be? I’m guessing 17.5 - 20k.

I’ll answer my own question, Dandy Man €12.5k, again seems very reasonable

where did you come across that one PP or did you camm them? Ta

call

Can't say Dandy Man at 12.5k is a bargain - median's barely gone past 20k and thats when he was hot.

PotM - of the 20-30k lot (hard to stomach that this is the new 'value' section I know) who you like.  Saxon W / Merchant N / Expert Eye / Zoustar / Cracksman / Harry A.  Roaring Lion 40k - redvers better promise to have his checkbook out.  Presumably they'll deal on fee for the better 2nd/3rd seasoners - ribchester, caravaggio?.  Surely Tasleet is a safe bet at the money with a showcasing friendly mare, not going to make us rich though?  Very wary of euro spending too!

Saxon Warrior all day long yer ma.

Roaring Lion a big NO at the prices

PG it was in The Irish Field today on Ballyhane’s ad for him.

Thank you, for completeness (i'm not a subscriber and cant find any other Ballyhane references) what were the other stallions listed at?

I have enjoyed reading some of the epitaphs for Walmac's Johnny Jones who I did meet in his study at Walmac in a different universe I think I once occupied.
The one quote attributed to him yer ma was 'never give your opinion unless you are being paid for it'!

Quite easy to adhere to his maxim here - I can't see any value!

I do think that we need some proof over the next fortnight that the industry isn't totally fracked a la Goffs this past week which has been pretty hairy.

I was talking to a fellow Breeder who has applied for an Expert Eye and when I moaned about the price they said they felt that they had no choice given the difficulty of fashion and image being so important to getting a yearling sale place.

I get that, but you have to be mighty sure that the mare will pick up that expensive nomination and run with it because if it's not a good enough individual you won't get the bl00dy thing in anyway.

I've applied for one too incidentally -hypocrisy being my middle name- but I am a long way from being sure I would take it up if they deign to oblige.

I would be interested to know what type of mare is getting rejected by EE. At £20k he is questionable value and to make it worthwhile your foal would need to be worth 35-40k. To my reasoning that means you would need it to be a very good foal on paper out of a proven mare or a very well bred/high performing(90+) mare. In this market are breeders still overcovering their mares?

Further to my post is EE really getting 100-120 mares of this quality looking to use him? Surely he isn't that sought after at £20k is he? This is all a little smoke and mirrors to me.

The wise words I was told was plan matings for a filly and hope for a colt. This year has been a bloodbath for fillies, yearling and foals, outside the top families. We are back to the worst of  the bad days and frankly I'd rather take Poets Word at 7000 than Expert Eye at 20000 in that situation. Yer Ma, I concur Tasleet though they are being very picky in forming his restricted book, which is all too the good. PotM, truly sorry here as I recall you had 100% fillies this year, so you will be a fair barometer this week as you have sound commercial families.

A bit off topic, but I’ve been reading a copy of the new “bloodstock notebook” including essays from industry people.

I’m old enough to have heard a few decades of Kirstin Rausing (the Tetrapac multi billionairess) pleading poverty, but this takes the biscuit.
“There was no way I could afford to buy a stallion prospect, having already got myself deep in hock to buy the stud” she says.

When those of us who have to borrow money to pay our stallion fees read her tripe it really gets my goat. Like when we regularly hear from ultra rich racing/breeding folk who say “we have to make it pay”. My first reaction is always...WHY!?

Actually this isn't wrong. Miss Rausing did not have access to the family funds to set up and run Lanwades.

So, PotM what's your verdict on the last week? Is the industry totally fracked or did you get your fillies away to good buyers for profitable amounts?

Formtwist I was very very VERY lucky to have bred some lovely fillies who just about covered their costs.

It was truly horrible for anything deemed not 'obvious' for next year and that of course includes 75% of all fillies and any colt with an unfashionable sire.

I didn't hit sire fashion except with one and that was early enough to help do the trend setting rather than ride on the inflated coat tails of those that came subsequently.

The incredible lack of traders up at the ring was something I have never seen before and I am not sure we will see any improvement for a while as those still pinhooking were paying loads for what is bang on trend right now.

Is bidding hard and fast on the most obvious a guarantee of bagging a bargain? Often not, I think.

Well done PM, delighted you have got out in one piece which is nothing short of miraculous given an all female cast and highly selective buyers. The barometer of a good sale now seems to be breaking even and above.

I have decided to keep my powder dry (for the time being) until the dreaded Brexit is resolved - could be a long wait....

Relieved for you PM. I think that luck is mainly the result of hard work and sound judgment. Judgment in selecting the right mares and their mates, seeing endless stallions to assess faults you can cope with and those you can't, and choosing those the market will accept 18 months on. Hard work in foaling and prepping and showing. Congratulations. I too broke even but like Posh Paddy I saved some nice colts for the year-long sale in the hope Brexit has been sorted and confidence return by then. That may not be good judgment, we shall see!

Try "yearling", predictive text!

Thank you Posh and Form.

I think an element of caution is a good thing right now as it is a dangerous strategy to try and spend our way of trouble.

However you have to keep sailing the boat in some direction or another if you are a Breeder so who knows what to do for the best. I quite envy you pinhookers right now Posh as sitting on one's hands seems mighty tempting right now. The pressure to get the right result from a mating and not 'waste' our very best mares who keep the show on the road is pretty enormous right now.

My plan is to spend a little more on the good mare(s), and a lot less on the "normal" mares (those that still just about merit breeding).

best mare  - Cracksman (am I mad!?)

cheap mare - Adaay

havnt figured out the other three yet. Usually go to Cheveley but nothing tempting me there this year.

Wily!!

Well I like Adaay...

Scary Biscuits the other guy but I do some odd things sometimes too.

Interesting, Wily! Whatever the decisions any of us make, we have to believe in them 100% as it is a long time awaiting the foal from signing the nomination. Good luck to you, you may well be right. I'm going the other way a bit, spending the total budget more evenly among the mares than I sometimes have as I can see that yielding steady enough returns to keep afloat and give the younger mares more of a chance to become the next "good one". In dodgy times using established sires is often safer, but with so many new sires around this year they have to be considered where not too over-priced or taking huge books to threaten fertility or sales slots. It's a proper minefield to traverse....

I can understand that if one mare is good enough to justify a Cracksman cover, I would be desperate enough to hope it would cover the losses on the lower level fees of the other mares. It used to be if you pushed to an £8k nom you at least stood a chance of overcoming costs but that has moved to probably £15k and for me would be over covering.

FWIW my starter mare with a scintilating Heeraat bun in the oven goes to Mayson. Older mare I'm saying bon voyage to at the WE, as maybe the numbers might stack up better in France.

proxygene
I bought a mare in foal to Mayson.  Any thoughts on him?

I admit I didn't want to like him as 'only' a heavy ground group horse, but he upgrades his mares.
He is ranked 116 out of 854 on my program one spot behind Zoffany above Dream Ahead, Bated Breath, Kyllachy and Farhh among others.
Got my contract back today and have a soon to be yearling by him too, sadly a filly though.
Like most at this level his fillies are a hard sell.
I still think if we have a wet Summer he could boost higher; last year was probably the least helpful possible for him.
He had 80 odd mares last year so oversupply isn't as bad as my year.
Think he is a percentage play under 10K, no profit guaranteed though.

A nice stallion at the price (£4k) and a nice colt will sell ok. His stock seem to act well enough on fast going.

Does anyone else think that Paco Boy was actually a decent stallion!!? just saw a decent one run at Ligfiled tonight.

I know you wouldnt want to use him at any price even if he was still in Eng, but his number of 90+ rated horses is very good. Mad world we live in.

Think Galileo Gold will still struggle commercially though. His sire's temperament was just too toxic

Depends on your definition of decent I suppose. Mine is a stallion that transmits ability commensurate with fee, with soundness of wind limb and temperament. In the mid range market at least, trainers, and thus agents too, will tolerate unsoundness of wind and limb, but never temperament. Galileo Gold exhibited that difficult temperament himself, which doesn't bode well for his chances at stud. Conversely, following the discussion above, Mayson is a decent stallion by my reckoning, though it would take stamina in a dam line to give him a chance of a Guineas winner.

Lancaster Bomber off to South Africa, not to come back.

So that is 2 recent recruits to The National Stud that lasted only once season after Spill The Beans. Not forgetting Tivaci who never made it!

That feels like a Coolmore sort of deal doesn't it. I wonder how significant a shareholder they had remained in the horse.
I spent some time considering him as I don't mind being a bit leftfield, but luckily decided he want for me.
Had he been so cold he had covered hardly anything?

I saw him at the stallion parade last month. He was a big horse (especially stood next to Havana Grey). I think that put a few people off.

have all the first season sires proved they can do the job now?

havn't heard about Cracksman or Harry Angel, but I don't think Darley tend to announce that sort of thing.

Darley website confirms both of those have mares in foal along with other new sires Hawkbill, Jungle Cat and Cloth of Stars.

Two more confirmed as having first mares scanned in foal being Tasleet and Poets Word. Think a good few of us are breathing a sigh of relief now!

Formtwist don't be breathing in too deeply now, I fear there are still clouds of asbestos dust flying around.

Certainly one who came out as successful  is returning pretty grim figures overall.

It's always worth double checking!

Any more info Potm? just thinking about making a late decision on a first season horse and don't want to waste a shot if you have some relevant info.


did I hear Gregorian might be heading back to Ire?

Wily I am not sure this forum is the right place to name names and the management were trying a new regime with the horse which could well bring about improvements as the swimmers themselves were not a problem.

I think you just need to get the answers before you sign the contract with anything unknown you book at this stage.

I guess Gregorian migh try Ireland. I did not think that price hike was a remotely good move and he is in a very big twilight world where the mare owners are thinking long and hard about covering at all right now.

Fair enough I agree with you, these things are not black & white. I'm just losing my nerve!

Think I should just trust the stud I know best and have a record of making stallions at the commercial end.

Just ask the question Wily and then if you don't like the answer you can look elsewhere.

I never stay 'brand loyal' if the mating isn't as good as I can make it.

A step in the right direction by the Rebel Racing Team offering some or all of the 5k stud fee for Rajasinghe if your produce doesn’t sell for 15k as a Foal or 20k as a yearling.

No doubt the devil is in the detail and those cynics among you may think this smacks of desperation but I welcome this initiative, although I can’t see fellow studs following this example, sadly.

R would need a good foal to get 15k, not many will. Studs will follow any example if breeders push hard enough.

I have done a bit of stud touring as usual this year to try and get a handle on the new horses.

When asked how they are finding trade this year, the phrase, "we're doing ok but some of the others are suffering" was a regular refrain.

However dig a little deeper and they just happen to mention how some horse of their's (more than one usually) is considerably behind usual levels of take up.

With Rajasinghe and Unfortunately offering public sweeteners in year 1 then I can only imagine what is happening with the difficult year horses It is obvious that some smart studs think that it is beneath them to get down to brass tacks but they simply won't get the mares.

The  EBN and TDN advertising schedules for some of these sires scream desperation and there must be a lot of 'name your price' stallions out there.

Chances of a bargain perhaps but we will all do well to remember my catchy new acronym WIGIAFS.

Will I get into a fing sale?

I remind myself that its a couple of Tatts directors that decide what gets in the sales and they just stick with the obvious. So I think any Rajasinge will struggle to get into a sale in any case.

its a shame that sales companies with black and white sire policies have such a say on the future of our breed. I'm sure there have been a great number of stallions that could have been successful but were never given a platform at the sales

I’m in a syndicate and we have just had a mare mated with Havana Grey mare is from Karl Burke’s so was a logical choice 8k plus vat what does anyone think

He's good looking and was a decent 2yo, so the market should take to him. Perhaps you're breeding to race with Karl? I like sending good trainers horses they were involved with, it seems to work well.

I am using him Doncaster. I shall leave it to you to decide whether to be heartened or to run for the hills!

Not looked at this forum for a week or so, busy time, but plenty seems to have been provoking comment which is good to see. Missed your response to my last post PM and no asbestos around here thankfully! I agree your view which I follow before booking mid-season or after first negative scan but these were early foaling / maidens so signed up for before the season started. When awaiting scans it is some relief to know that at least one other by that sire has been positive and my three are fortunately in foal. I like your catchy new acronym too - the attitude of the sales companies is a proper headache isn't it? Interestingly, though I haven't tried it yet, I know a few people who shifted foals and yearlings on Race Horse Trader and it has it's attractions including cost and time. Doncaster Rover - Havana Grey good choice I think for that mare, especially if likely the aim is to sell in foal? Wily, have you followed your first instinct and gone for Cracksman?

Yup, took the plunge on Cracksman. ouch!

anyone had a bet on champion FSS? Ive had a bit on Guitafan. Not original but surely got to be hot favourite for number of winners.

I know its very early days but my Guitafan gamble isn't looking great.

Good start from Due Diligence, and there seems to be a good word for Night of Thunder

Oct 28, 2018 -- 12:27PM, roadrunner46 wrote:

with gutaifan being a precocious 2yo just like his sire, will be expecting lot better from this son next season, as always dependant on the matings, if they are getting low quality mares every year

checked the results around this time last month, gutaifan was showing a 74 points profit after the first 30 runners of the season at BFSP, havent been able to capitalize, ive been very busy looking after my mother, which me for takes precedence over making money, suffice to say july would of been a very special month 1/3 million

just don't bet them in stakes company!

gutaifan 7 wins clear of the chasing pack now should be enough to become FSS champion 2019 , was 11/4 around the same price as muhaarar,
whats happened to all those expensive muhaarar horses, dont think many of them have had a run yet.

enemy wins for muhaarar FTO, thats one of those expensive muhaarar's at 420k

That Qatar horse is from one of the best families in racing.

Due Diligence got his third 2yo stakes winner today. What price might he be next year?