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10 Dec 17 10:56
Date Joined: 11 Dec 10
| Topic/replies: 1,083 | Blogger: truehoncho's blog
It looks a tough year if yo're looking for a stallion under £5k. Any suggestions?
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Report Big Black Cat December 10, 2017 12:18 PM GMT
As you know I clearly know **** all about breeding but, I'm going to suggest SIXTIES ICON.

43% winners to runners
Average sales price £16
Median £9K
Gets 2 yo
By GALILEO and a very nice distaff pedigree.
Cound end up with a dual purpose horse (he gets winners over hurdles too).
Started off very well but has gone a bit unfashionable?

Jack Hobbs has gone as a jumps sire of course, but so did Pour Moi and look what happened there.  £4K may be a snip. Or it may not.
Report Big Black Cat December 10, 2017 3:33 PM GMT
That's £16K of course-I wouldn't bother for £16.
Report Formtwist December 10, 2017 7:31 PM GMT
I'm not sure why you restrict yourself to sires under 5k. There are other sires advertised at a bit more that might be negotiable down near £5k - Adaay, Charming Thought, Mayson and Poets Voice spring to mind around that level. Possibly Sir Percy too. Under £5k Cityscape (fair enough start this year), Heeraat (well enough received for the mares he had), Hellvelyn, Garswood (stock sold well as yearlings and foals), Fountain of Youth (his first foals were likeable and sold well, very current family) and the perennial Monsieur Bond. Personally, if you want to play at that level, you have a decent enough selection so far as I can see, whatever the pedigree of your mares.
Report kincsem December 14, 2017 11:38 PM GMT
My suggestion is you must match, as far as possible, the ancestors in you mare's pedigree to a sire.
The problem I found is that many mares are almost not worth mating as they have too much of what the sires also have too much of, sons of Northern Dancer (or Danzig).
This week I bought a mare, and she arrived in Ireland today.
I test-mated 635 mares in the catalogue with 655 sires at stud giving over 422,000 test-matings (635 x 655)..
About 86% of the 422k I could write off immediately, very poor pedigrees, even to good sires.

My buyer went all the way to France to buy one mare at the sale.
It is a theory mating, as the mare never ran, and her foals to date were poor.
She was knocked down for too much money for her poor record/background.
Today I asked the stud to book the chosen sire for two years, 2018 and 2019.
Report kincsem December 14, 2017 11:39 PM GMT
* (635 x 655)
Report kincsem December 14, 2017 11:40 PM GMT
*(635 x 665) ffs
Report Johnny_Mustang December 15, 2017 10:30 AM GMT
Which stallion is she visiting?
Report truehoncho December 15, 2017 1:18 PM GMT
Sorry I haven't responded quicker and thanks to all that replied. Formtwist most of those were on my list and I have used quite a few of them already. I agree about Cityscape and I think I will be using him again this year. Heeraat got 120 mares in his 3rd season but they put him up to £5k on the back of good sales, which in my opinion count for very little on a 4th season stallion at this level.M Bond may well have to be used again and if I can get Mayson under £5k I will probably take a chance (although I thought he might do a bit better this year). Kinscem, its hard to get good pedigree matches at this level (I do try), and my mares would probably fall into the not worth mating bunch that you have identified. Still we are where we are and there are hundreds of reasons why not to breed thoroughbreds..

No one mentioned Jack Hobbs (sorry BBC just looked back and you did) or Mondialiste so I assume they have zero appeal to commercial flat breeders and there was Japanese stallion that was mentioned a few weeks ago by Deep Impact (I think) for £4k but I can't find him again.
Report proxygene December 15, 2017 6:10 PM GMT
Mondialiste £6k Danon Ballade the son of Deep Impact
Report proxygene December 15, 2017 6:10 PM GMT
Mondialiste £6k Danon Ballade the son of Deep Impact
Report truehoncho December 15, 2017 7:42 PM GMT
Thanks Proxy, twice!!
Report Johnny_Mustang December 15, 2017 7:49 PM GMT
Danon Ballade is a jumps sire standing at Batsford. Jack Hobbs isn't, yet, but will inevitably end up in that sphere.
Report truehoncho December 15, 2017 7:52 PM GMT
Hi JM, does he have no prospects for the flat? His pedigree looks ok but the conformation shot of him isn't great and I don't know what the form mounts to.
Report Johnny_Mustang December 15, 2017 7:56 PM GMT
No problem Truehoncho. He has zero appeal for me. Maybe ask yourself this: with his unfashionable pedigree and racing performance, would you be be surprised to see him covering NH mares in Ireland? I certainly wouldn't.
Report potentialmillionaire December 15, 2017 8:27 PM GMT
Vickyverky me thinks.
Jack is NHing and Danon flat.
Report Formtwist December 15, 2017 9:17 PM GMT
Truehoncho re Mondialiste, he would suit an owner-breeder who doesn't expect or want precocity. He has quality pedigree and stud owner support. If you want, or need to sell he'd be unlikely to appeal to the sales companies.
Report kincsem December 15, 2017 11:20 PM GMT
Report Posh Paddy December 16, 2017 8:24 PM GMT
At a 5k budget trying to find something first season or commercial especially on your side of the pond is nearly impossible as you would be using something in an iffy year where it would be feast or famine come sales time.

The only options I can see that are even close to your budget are Ardad (6.5k) and Equiano (8k).

Options are a bit more plentiful this side of the Irish Sea with the like of Camacho (€7.5 / £6.6k), Cotai Glory & Elzaam (€6 / £5.3k) & Requinto (€5 / £4.4k).

Have to say Camacho looks an absolute steal at €7.5k
Report Wilycayote December 18, 2017 8:48 PM GMT
I'll be finding out if there are any deals on Farhh because of his fertility issues. Otherwise, If there's a reasonable deal on Adaay I'd be happy to take a bit of a punt. very good looking.
Report truehoncho December 19, 2017 6:04 PM GMT
Thanks Posh and Wily, cant argue with either post. Im saw Shadwell were trying to sell some potential stallions, doesn't look like there were any takers.
Report Johnny_Mustang December 20, 2017 11:02 AM GMT
I know someone who went to have a look at the half to Muharaar. Returned home empty handed.
Report potentialmillionaire December 20, 2017 2:18 PM GMT
Farhh is full. You might get squeezed in if they want your mare because it's a book restricted by fertility issues and the price likewise. Adaay is my preference on the wrong year gambling front. Ardaad I imagine won't be dealing first year and the stud are looking like they need a kick up the backside after the Mustajeeb fiasco. It's no good just running a ton of publicity to fill up year 1, which they should do alone, and then just walk away when the going gets really tough. I would hope that Ardad's owners might work a bit harder. Heerat looks like another wrong year'un that deserves consideration.
Report truehoncho December 20, 2017 5:25 PM GMT
Thanks again PotM and JM. I think I am heading for Heeraat with one of them. I have had a colt by him and I really liked him (the market didn't) so considering a repeat. In truth though, I don't think he will be trading higher than £5k in the next couple of years so he is priced at the top end and will have a lot better mares than mine so the competition will be strong at the sales.

Kuroshio and Fast Company, others that disappeared after 1 season (for reasons good or bad). Ardaad will get the numbers as not much first season to compete but he was moderate, even in my book. I really like Cityscape though and may well go back.

JM I thought that Intilaaq may have got some interest.
Report Johnny_Mustang December 20, 2017 6:51 PM GMT
Not sure anything annoys me more than when a stud does that PotM, they’re very happy to take the money first season. Poor form. Heeraat’s been surprising me all year with his sales prices and might have a chance. Smart move by Richard Kent (and I’m not him btw) buying Shadwell out prior to the sales season.

Can’t have Intilaaq at all Truehoncho and to me he looks a horse who just went backwards. Figuratively, not literally. I like Dynaformer, although the market won’t, and the only thing he’s got going for him pedigree-wise is Torrestrella. Will probably end up in Saudi if anywhere.
Report davieboy. December 22, 2017 9:08 AM GMT
Ardad. A horse that got no further than 5f, didn't train on, fluked a royal ascot win where the pace collapsed and has a bang average pedigree. They should be paying you to breed from him not the other way round.
Report Johnny_Mustang December 22, 2017 6:11 PM GMT
That’s the spirit Davie, none of this sitting on the fence malarkey.
Report Wilycayote December 22, 2017 11:35 PM GMT
friend in Gosden's says Ardad was a bleeder. But even so, the placed horses behind him at Ascot were rated 86 & 89. Commercial breeding gone too far IMHO
Report Wilycayote December 22, 2017 11:35 PM GMT
friend in Gosden's says Ardad was a bleeder. But even so, the placed horses behind him at Ascot were rated 86 & 89. Commercial breeding gone too far IMHO
Report truehoncho December 23, 2017 11:08 AM GMT
In fairness to Overbury, at least they got something, there isn't much available first season wise in Britain. My guess is that studs here can't compete with the Irish ones for the value end of the market. I still think Lightning Spear would get a full book at £4kish if they gave him a chance next year.
I am still interested in Outstrip if anyone has a cheap nomination they want to use up.
Report Posh Paddy January 25, 2018 7:33 PM GMT
I know reverse shuttlers are not everyone’s cup of tea but Spill The Beans at 6k probably warrants closer inspection.

Completely missed him but the RP just did a little piece on him and his father is petty hot although how much support in the ring he’ll get from connections is anyone’s guess.
Report Wilycayote January 26, 2018 10:24 AM GMT
The problem is that the market is tired of these reverse shuttlers, but more significantly, he already has foals on the ground in AUS (i.e. he missed a year before being shuttled). We all know that far more stallions fail than succeed wherever they are in the world, so this stallion will already be exposed to results on the track in AUS, when his first crop are going to market up here. So you dont get that usual "first crop / safe bet" in the Northern Hemisphere with him.
Report Posh Paddy January 26, 2018 7:07 PM GMT
That’s a fair point Wily. Schoolboy error on my part, effectively he’s a 3rd season sire - just.

The Ferry beckons for most UK breeders it seems. Interesting to see many embrace prospects to the South rather than to the West.  Clearly the terrifying consequence of maybe having to deal with France Gallop is not so off putting anymore.
Report johnnythebull January 27, 2018 10:56 AM GMT
Report johnnythebull January 28, 2018 11:06 AM GMT
Report truehoncho January 28, 2018 2:44 PM GMT
Thanks for all the responses. I have settled on M Bond, Mayson and Heeraat as my road to riches this year.
Report Wilycayote January 28, 2018 4:13 PM GMT
Mon Bond yearling average 2017 = £3,159

not being smart...just wondered what the thinking was behind your choice?
Report truehoncho January 28, 2018 8:46 PM GMT
I think he is a good stallion that suits my mare.
Report Koo.... January 29, 2018 3:23 PM GMT
MB tends to get alot who want time for me and his stock dont really mature till their 4yo.  Not sure if this helps alot or not but its the reason I've stayed away as an owner breeder as even I cant wait that long
Report Koo.... January 29, 2018 3:25 PM GMT
Ive a lovely big white face and legs mare, so I've gone to Pearl Secret so that I get a big white faced chestnut (colt hopefully) and everyone says thats the spitting image of the sire and get giddy bidding on it.
Report proxygene January 29, 2018 3:54 PM GMT
will you be selling at Appleby then Koo?
Report sageform January 29, 2018 6:24 PM GMT
I think I would take Poets Voice at 6k over Mons Bond at 4k but both get plenty of winners. Poets Voice is a cheap way to get DubawiGrin
Report Koo.... January 29, 2018 8:43 PM GMT
I will if you qualify for maiden auctions Excited
Report truehoncho January 30, 2018 1:28 AM GMT
I fully intend to race the offspring Koo.
Report Wilycayote February 19, 2018 6:45 PM GMT
RP article today...Fiona Craig explains that people would be foolish not to use Galileo and Dubawi

Thanks Fiona
Report potentialmillionaire February 20, 2018 2:25 PM GMT
At 600k and 250k? I am not entirely sure that we are talking slam dunk here.
Report Wilycayote February 20, 2018 3:47 PM GMT
Nothing more annoying than experts who only ever spend other people's money. (i.e. almost every "agent")

The easiest job in the world is deciding a mating for an elite mare as there are only about 3 stallions you need to chose from!
Far more impressive is to be clever enough to chose the right stallion for a cheap mare and make a success of it. There are far more traps to avoid at the bottom of the pile.
Report Koo.... March 15, 2018 11:16 AM GMT
Poet's Voice has had a decent winter, so Ive decided to use him again and gone upmarket for me with Barney Roy for another mare.  Last sire choice of the year is Pastoral Pursuit cos hes very local and cheap on a mare i half thought of not bothering.   Hopefully in a couple of years im still thinking their were value sires
Report dominion March 15, 2018 5:30 PM GMT
Couldn't agree more Wilycayote.Not only do they bring very little to the table,when it all turns out to be an expensive disaster, they excuse themselves with the statement 'That's racing'.Thank you very much. Do call again.
Report Koo.... March 18, 2018 6:24 PM GMT
Will need to re think the Poet's Voice cover now hes sadly passed away.  Such a shame as I had just had a lovely colt by him, due another one this month and had booked in again.  Not really mad on the other Darley sires at the same price, so need to find the value inside 48 hours as my mares already boarding and about ready.
Report Big Black Cat March 18, 2018 8:42 PM GMT
Koo-If you still want Dubawi, would Time Test be an option? A bit more expensive though.
Report sageform March 19, 2018 7:55 AM GMT
Great shame to lose Poets Voice. He is my tip to join the top 10 sires this year.
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