MARSHA selling at Tatts

not sure what happened there

Final attempt.
At the risk of spending under £60K,
Killing the thread
Inbreeding to Marju
Assuming it will be Galileo whatever
1 Ribchester
2 Kingman
3 Iffraaj
4 Galileo
5 Lope De Vega
My guess £2.2 mill

It's great cheap theatre if you keep your hands in your pockets...

How much is she worth?
I think she is worth £200k.
How much will she sell for at the sale is a different question.

And if you had the funds to buy her, who gets to cover her?
I could run the breeding program I've written to find the best mate but I'm too lazy.
I did it for Goffs, tatts, Arqana Breeding stock sales.

You have to be careful with racemares when you buy them as broodmares.
What makes them a good racemare is often no help when picking a stallion prospect.
If i was guessing where Marsha got her ability I would look at her dam lines.

Acclamation's third dam (Sea Melody) and Marju's second dam (Welsh Flame) might be the clue.
Both have Tudor Minstrel (Hyperion sire line) on their sire lines, and both have Hyperion on their dam lines, with other duplications of Fairway, Hurry On, Salamandra, Lady Juror.
Or in simple language, Sea Melody and Welsh Flame come out of the same pot.

Marsha's fourth dam, Tralthee, has another link, as she has Owen Tudor, the sire of Tudor Minstrel.
Owen Tudor is by Hyperion.   Tudor Minstrel is by Owen Tudor by Hyperion.

Those linked dam lines of Marsha come from Hyperion sire lines meeting Hyperion dam lines.

Where do you find a Hyperion sire line stallion for Marsha these days?
It is all Northern Dancer or Native Dancer sire lines.

I haven't fully recorded all sire lines in my 978 sires database.
A quick look shows Anjaal, Babodana, Pastoral Pursuits, Major Cadeaux. Toylsome as Tudor Minstrel sire line, so it SHOULD be one of those.
Heresy!  They are standing at 5k and under.  She will never go to one of those.
She will produce poor runners to Northern Dancer or Native Dancer sire line stallions imo.
(fwiw I have 48 sires by Galileo in my sire database)

Who cares about producing poor runners?   Sales price is the yardstick of success.

I would suggest Bated Breath. By Dansili so not necessarily a pure sprinter and from a good Juddmonte family.

Speed is what Marsha is offering but both she (Barathea) and Bated Breath (Dansili/Danehill) have Group 1 mile winners not so far back in the pedigree.

That's some result BBC although one suspends judgement until you get to see how much is actually lodged in the bank account.

I recall you and I sparring some years ago as to where exactly "ownership" lies in Elite. I suggest you and your fellow members are now about to find out.

You are remarkably sanguine about the situation. Can you offer an opinion on £6m being banked privately regardless of what "juicy nominations" are booked?

Really hope she is a success at Stud but breeding speed to stamina can produce neither.

Shame that the members won't get a share of the Guineas first prize

BBC you do credit to yourself and Elite in your sensible and clearly expressed financial assessments. For the minimal investment you make annually, and I hope that you take that as the compliment intended, you have the exhilaration of several Club horses racing at the highest level. Greed and envy you are free of so hearty congratulations and may you have many more days in the sun....

Greed and envy you are free of so hearty congratulations and may you have many more days in the sun...

That's a rather pointed barb Formtwist; what candle are you carrying?

I have a sneaking regard for BBC's wholehearted enthusiasm even if it smacks of naivety if not something more sinister-one more supporter here would make a nap hand.

Elite is a wholly brilliant concept for the promoters and they have an asset base valued, probably, at something in eight figures to keep them warm at night. As that guy on Eurosport might say, "chapeau!"

Everyone that pays up knows the score in relation to the ownership rules but my question is valid on the basis that the outfit's best mare, Soviet Song, was retired to stud within their acclaimed breeding programme but now, the Marsha cheque for £6m is being cashed and, jolly hockeysticks, aren't we going to be buying some really juicy nominations that the club could afford in any event.

The owners are cashing in their chips to the detriment of BBS and his fellow members. Can we admit this and wish them well, even if we are a little sad about losing a dual Group 1 winning mare from "our" programme?

Your reply borders on the barely credible BBC.

Let me tell you what the Elite owners have done to you.

You have been a wonderful mouthpiece for them over the years extolling the virtues of the connection to a racing and breeding operation that is beyond most people's affordability. What it costs is largely irrelevant because you simply do not know how funds are applied when received and one can assume a number of bonanzas over the years. To suggest that the most likely primary motivation for her sale is to "inject some capital into the business" is risible in the extreme.

You and your fellow travellers have been denied the "mouth watering" prospect of racing a number of Galileo/Dubawi colts or fillies out of a dual Group 1 winning mare which I understood - from your heady prose - was the whole point of the operation. I daresay if the cupboard was bare Coolmore would come to some arrangement with you to pay the nomination in instalments although the influx of hundreds of new members following on from Marsha's success might assuage that little problem. Lordy, even an alternating foal-share deal would give you a foal, 2yo and 4yo etc.

The poor breeding record of Soviet Song justifies nothing as she WAS retired to stud and, that, is what one would expect based on the club's philosophy. Her bad luck stands to the credit of the owners but they would not be bitten twice although one could always sell a foal or yearling or two?

Frankly, your talk of the "cash" benefiting the club and enhancing the value of the family - you have just offloaded the Crown Jewels -is BS makes me far more suspicious of your motivations.

The question as to what "I would do" is a red herring and irrelevant: please don't try to conflate a very commercial cash making decision with some kind of motivational philanthropy on behalf of the members.

You asked for opinions from your "esteemed breeding friends", sorry to crash the party.

The decision to send Marsha to the sales was taken by whom RA?  Do you know? I do-or at least I know what I've been told?


Let me give you an example. If you have a high value asset for which there is likely to be a high demand for, then is it not better to cash in on it (especially if you have several close relatives and her mother) because there's no guarantees we're going to see any superstars coming from her?

As you are an 'esteemed breeding friend', perhaps you can tell me how many superstar G1 winning mares produce anything like as good as themselves? Miesque? Ouija Board? Urban Sea?  There are some of course.  A lot of the superstar mares in the breeding business are 'related to' a very good racemare however?  Elites own Tribute Act was a miles better breeding mare than her illustrious sister Soviet Song.  And she won a Kempton maiden.

To me, the principle of this sale is no different to that an owner who's bough a colt at a breeze up sale for 20K only to find after he's raced it a couple of times and its won impressively that he gets a phonecall from Godolphin (or the like) who are interested in buying his colt for many times the fold of its purchase cost.  So what does he do?  Does he take the money and run (negotiating a covering or two if the animal goes to stud) or does he say no thanks and take the risk the horse will be a top class colt and hope he wins a big race.

Selling Marsha is a commercial decision to raise cash-there's no doubt about it. 

For the record, there were several prominent members of the Elite management team who advised Tony Hill to cash in on Soviet Song at the end of her 2 yo career (there was a 7 figure bid on the table).  He declined. He took the risk that she was something special and having her in the club would swell the membership.  He was right. It did.

You are quite correct.  I don't know where the money is going.  Tony Hill may retire to the Bahamas and set up an office there and send me my weekly newsletter by air mail.  But he takes all the risks-they decide all the nominations (with Dan and Maurice involved no doubt)and my 90 quid would barely pay for Marsha's flu jab every year.

I have no problem if you think I'm a mug or a simpleton-that's your prerogative.  I do take umbrage at your thought that I may be something other than a normal club member with any sort of agenda. Because I'm not.

Yer ma-as for not paying for expensive covers-our first three nominated stallions this year are Churchill, Gleneagles and Acclamation.  All around E30-40k  I believe?  If you define Dubawi/Galileo/Frankel as expensive then you are of course quite correct.

Thanks for your replies.

I will gladly save the lectures on the economics RA etc as you clearly know where the pros and cons are.

For the record, Marsha was advised to be sold by none other than her trainer.  Of course the club didn't have to take the advice but they did.

Mr Hill may well be getting rich on the profits of this and other sales-but he set the business up and he took all the decisions and the risk.  I imagine he's pinching himself as to how lucky he's been.

I'm hoping he gets a bit more luck too.

Congratulations on your winner truehoncho.  Fantastic for you.

Thanks both. Again I emphasise my naivety and I am sure that the Elite club provides great fun for little cost and bring loads of people into the sport that otherwise wouldn't have been, so well done to all.

Congrats Truehoncho, can I surmise that we are team mates next year albeit indirectly?

I think I come from the opposite direction regarding Elite. I thought it was a subscription club, like the HnH analogy, with no returns coming back even winnings. Under those circumstances if everyone is happy with the Ts and Cs how can Elite be anything other than a major success? Would the Marsha funds allow purchases to be made to pad out numbers of runners as well as going into upgraded matings?

I think if the previously planned full sibling to Marsha mating has been stalled then there really can be only 3 sires that could justify that jump, Galileo, Dubawi and invincible Spirit