Bloodstock & Breeding

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18 Oct 16 17:56
Date Joined: 11 Dec 10
| Topic/replies: 4,337 | Blogger: truehoncho's blog
very disappointing I think for a stallion with a £20k fee. Nothing rated better than RP 85. Nothing I have seen of his look like making group race horses. Casamento has done better (and that's very moderate) from a fee of £5k. Definite one for the NH boys I think.
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Report Formtwist October 18, 2016 7:24 PM BST
Great Heavens you are an impatient chap! Stamina pedigree and quality big books of the sort of mares that take time. Judge him 12 months on, not now. Can't think you'd be planning on using him, so why are you bothered?
Report truehoncho October 18, 2016 9:21 PM BST
You are kidding me on a bit there aren't you FT? He looks pretty disastrous to me.
Report Formtwist October 18, 2016 10:07 PM BST
Kidding, well snap judgements of this sort of sire rather get my goat...l.
Report truehoncho October 19, 2016 12:35 PM BST
Sorry FT but it's not a snap judgement, it's a fair assessment of his performance. How many £20k stallions couldn't produce a 2yo better than RP 85 rated and made a good stallion. I can't find any, even Duke of Marmalade did better as did no end of current NH stallions.
Report sageform October 29, 2016 12:42 PM BST
Still nothing by Nathaniel to get excited about. There will need to be some good 3yo maidens next season.
Report truehoncho October 29, 2016 11:14 PM BST
As soon as the box gets back from drooping Mount Nelson off he will be up the road.
Report potentialmillionaire October 30, 2016 10:13 AM GMT
Have we all seen the new ad.?

It tables Nathan and his siblings showing their improvement from 2 to 3!

Enough people seemed to buy into this thought at the yearling sales and it is nice to see that there are still some around willing to be patient.

Writing on the wall time one way or another by July next season..
Report proxygene October 30, 2016 11:00 AM GMT
Isn't he almost fully syndicated anyway so not so much time pressure and was always expected to be nothing like a 2yo sire?
Report yer ma October 30, 2016 2:24 PM GMT
The blind backing of plenty toffs and 'advisers' means his lack of anything resembling a good horse (he did run very well at 2 in August remember, so did other siblings) this year is being overlooked..for now.
Report neill d October 30, 2016 4:56 PM GMT
He's the sh1ts, indeed.
Report potentialmillionaire October 30, 2016 5:41 PM GMT
He is syndicated for sure but with some of them wishing to sell their nominations and another 100 or so available as normal proxy I still think you'll get one!
Top class horses get out at two through shear raw talent, the slightly more humble stock they produce sadly don't.
I think Silver Hawk is working his thang. Mmm not a help me thinks.
Report Wilycayote October 30, 2016 7:45 PM GMT
he's got about as much chance as Jeremy Corbyn hosting the next live at the Apollo.
Report Johnny_Mustang October 31, 2016 7:53 AM GMT
The horsebox carrying Mount Nelson had barely reached the A10 on Saturday when his daughter Strawberry Martini won a Listed race at San Siro.
Report truehoncho October 31, 2016 4:49 PM GMT
I know JM. Personally I thought he was doing ok and has been on my list due to the filly deal and there not being much else about.
Report Studious_1 November 2, 2016 12:45 AM GMT
Couldn't agree more really in regards to the general sentiment on Nathaniel.

I bet pretty heavily in 2yo races and the main criteria I use as a starting point is paddock assessment.  As such any first season's sire's stock is always of the highest interest and right from word go there was little to like about most of the Nathaniel 2yo's I saw on track this year.

Yes it's true he has a stamina laden pedigree and middle distances/time should see his stock at their optimum but you still need the horse to work on from the beginning and nearly all of them I've seen have been 'nothing' types to my eye at least.

He was a good horse and trained by my fav trainer of all time so it's a shame but I guess that's just the game.
Report zygote November 2, 2016 2:33 PM GMT
Breeders' prejudice against middle-distance sires, and their wanton enthusiasm for speed, is having a deleterious effect on the thoroughbred. The "want it now" mentality has spread to the market, hence the popularity of sires who were not top-class on the track. The balance has moved too far towards speed, and the Classics will soon be an option for only a small percentage of 3YOs.
Report Colonel Sanders November 2, 2016 9:27 PM GMT
Small reduction to £17,500 for 2017

Reading this thread I assume people still think that's high?
Report Koo.... November 3, 2016 8:00 PM GMT
20k too high for me
Report Koo.... November 3, 2016 8:00 PM GMT
20k too high for me
Report proxygene November 3, 2016 8:42 PM GMT
so does that mean 40k too high and Newsells should pay for marespace?
Report Koo.... November 4, 2016 11:29 AM GMT
Id like to think so, or alternative maybe just bung me a score so the new mouse doesnt stick as much :D
Report knot in wood May 29, 2017 10:35 AM BST
funny old game.
Report Koo.... May 29, 2017 11:05 AM BST
Its like the Hokey cokey.   In out in out.  Were back in now, but id still like him cheaper
Report truehoncho May 29, 2017 1:54 PM BST
Another Champs Elysees for me and we know what happened to him (rightly or wrongly!)
Report sageform May 30, 2017 8:09 AM BST
Both Nathaniel (8) and Champs Elysee (10) are getting plenty of GB winners this month. Just because Nathaniel ran OK at 2 himself does not mean his progeny will be 2yo's. If he is sent staying mares, it will be from now on that the first crop should begin to emerge as a force if they are ever going to.
By comparison, Galileo has 7 GB wins in May, Cape Cross 8, New Approach 9, Shamardal 9, Pivotal 8 and Fastnet Rock 7. 

I know one month is not a significant sample but the concentration on Group winners and money won can skew your judgement of overall ability.
Report neill d May 30, 2017 6:15 PM BST
Think he is horrendous myself sageform but each to their own.
Report knot in wood June 2, 2017 4:38 PM BST
Grin well done nathaniel.
Report Big Black Cat June 2, 2017 4:43 PM BST
Who'd have thought he'd have a European Classic winner before Frankel eh?
Report sageform June 2, 2017 5:19 PM BST
Could just be the beginning for Nathaniel. Acid test for Frankel in the Derby tomorrow.
Report kincsem June 3, 2017 6:10 AM BST
Followed by an acid test for Frankel at Royal Ascot, followed by an acid test for Frankel in the St Leger.
Who knows?  Small sample sizes.
We need about three crops raced and retired for any sire.
Before that happens they cash in their remaining chips, he is shipped off and starts producing Group 1s elsewhere
Report sageform June 3, 2017 5:28 PM BST
Third and fourth in the Derby was a fair return for Frankel from first crop. I am still concerned about how many of his 3yo progeny finish placed compared to winners though. They look like winning a furlong out but too many seem to get beaten. Seven Heavens is the worst culprit but Monarchs Glen, Atty Persse and Icespire all seem to be getting worse not better. Not suggesting that the 2 in the Derby chucked it in but some just seem to lack that final furlong speed or determination to me. I think that Eminent is going to be a very high class horse once he matures.
Report truehoncho June 3, 2017 7:54 PM BST
Well Frankel will never have a better book of mares and his stock look decidedly unreliable at the top level. I must admit Nathaniel has done himself proud with the Oak's filly, she looks really good and it's great to see Pour Moi sire a Derby winner. It looks like being a good Leger this year.
Report truehoncho June 3, 2017 8:01 PM BST
Frankel won't get a better book of mares and they look decidedly unreliable in the highest grade. Nathaniel and Pour Moi have both done really well and it looks like a good Leger this year.
Report truehoncho June 3, 2017 8:02 PM BST
the first reply didn't show until I posted the other one??????
Report sageform June 4, 2017 6:58 PM BST
Nothing new there honcho. Most websites are slow and unreliable at this time on a Sunday when half of the population are on the web.
Report ElT July 28, 2017 12:11 PM BST
Big weekend for Nathaniel. Not only the favourite in the KG, but also Enjoy Vijay as joint fav for the 2nd biggest open aged Gr.1 in Germany on Sunday.
Report zygote July 29, 2017 4:37 PM BST
A dream start for Nathaniel's stallion career with the supermare Enable. UK could use a decent middle-distance sire to add to Golden Horn and New Approach.
Report Big Black Cat July 29, 2017 4:45 PM BST
Who'd have thought that Nathaniel would have the superstar in his first crop that Enable has proved to be?
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