New Sires 2017

There used to be a time (sigh) when a horse was retired to stud that I'd instantly know its pedigree and form. Recently, and in particular this year, I find myself asking "What the f*ck is that"?

But maybe it's just me.

I really like Awtaad but always knew he would end up  in Ireland. I think Markaz would have done well over here and not sure what else Shadwell have for Britain but I'm sure there is something.

One for the purists here: Dariyan to Haras de Bonneval.

This is a horse I like a lot:

Shalaa to Haras de Bouquetot.

That's a surprise. Thought he'd race on - any plans for a UK / France alternation like Charm Spirit?

JohnnyM on it, as ever.

I guessed that would be the scenario but it was nice to get the news first!

They had already put that out in the brochure promoting the ARC beofre the comeback run

Well, an avalanche of new sires now. Territories retires a year too late I think, but has enough about him to get support if the fee is right - and just how many spare stallion boxes do Darley have left?

Right then. Hands up if you expected Tally-Ho to be standing a son of Monsun out of a Peintre Celebre mare next year.

Please don't tell me you couldn't see it happening. It's obvious. Really.

Both hands firmly down here! Are we talking an ex-French, lately rear view of Winx son of Monsun? Fascinating.........

Yes, got it in one. Definitely not their usual type of horse is it.

No indeed! His connections are French, and logically he should have gone there, but maybe they think he would get more support in Ireland and Tally-Ho agreed to stand him and experiment with a different clientele?

Well, as expected, Twilight Son is off to his Cheveley Park home, and as they usually price a newcomer OK he will probably be popular, particularly as a different enough pedigree for the current commercial sprint mare population.

Well, J-M, we now comprehend don't we? Vadamos is a SPEED sire....

And if that's what Rog says then it must be true. Although to be fair, one of my French contacts who is very close to Fabre did tell me last year that the trainer was absolutely blown away with the horse's raw ability. The previous trainer had been running him over 12f and Fabre always thought he'd be best at a mile.

Oct 27, 2016 -- 8:13PM, Johnny_Mustang wrote:

And if that's what Rog says then it must be true. Although to be fair, one of my French contacts who is very close to Fabre did tell me last year that the trainer was absolutely blown away with the horse's raw ability. The previous trainer had been running him over 12f and Fabre always thought he'd be best at a mile.

Fabre must have shares in monsun, manduro was the best ever, raw talent with this one.

Fabre can train them.Too temperamental for most. Not that it will bother me, but this fellow bucked a family trend wìth his aptitude.

We've lost a useful one to Ireland in Mount Nelson I think.

I think that might be so, wonder if Newsells will replace him?

Shaka €27,500

And if my iPad auto corrects my spelling one more time it's going out the window.

So, one more time, Shalaa €27,500.

Crikey O'Reilley.

No one seems to worried about over production and a very selective market do they?

I am.

And this horses form or soundness doesn't bear the closest inspection in my humbles.

Darleys are out.  Spot the bargains...oh wait there arent any.  Surely you could have given a bit on Sepoy and clearly they expect the market to like The Last Lion more than the forum.    Charming Thought??  8k???  Bet you have to look him up

Actually I thought Charming Spirit at 8k was the bargain rated 116 at 2 and cost a pretty penny as a yearling - 625K and page looks ok.  When compared with Shalaa at £25k and The Last Lion at £10.8 I thought he looked quite good.

I agree Posh, Charming Thought is worthy of consideration.

I agree yer ma, I had to look him up!

I don't know whether New Approach is worthy of a gamble now following the great mares he has covered, but he has never done it for me so those of you in that range can make your decisions without my help!

There are some very fancy prices out there and it's no bl00dy wonder that the first season sire market remains so overheated when these expensive 'proven' sires are only ever a quiet year away from the fashion graveyard.

Doesn't look like much in the £5k exciting bracket is coming along. Still time for someone to snap up Cotai Glory or Estidhkaah otherwise we will be unexcitingly back to Pastoral Pursuits etc..

Charming Thought owes his lack of activity to poor feet and Territories had a tie forward operation between 2 and 3.

There, I'm sure many have this info but I've only learned it this week!

I didnt know that so thanks PotM.  What a pointless car crash of a sale that tatts ireland foal add-on was, that or as a fellow scotsman once said 'We're doomed!'

I must admit to a raised eyebrow when reading the Tatts critique of their day of fun.
I am not sure that a rough estimate of €35 k's worth of commission goes very far towards setting up that little tombola stall does it yer ma!
However, I do wonder if those folks that took a nice ordinary foal and got it moved for 10-20k might not be reasonably happy?
I don't think it is going to be easy for those types at  Goffs and right now whilst looking at a pile of faults where the best thing about them might be a nice headcollar, I'm beginning to wish I'd been there!
God I hope it's just pre season jitters

The Euro situation is hurting our cost base but from a selfish perspective I hope (and assume) the irish pinhookers will be even more strongly favouring Tatts with their 1:1 euros.  Strongly suspect more than a couple of those range purchases were smoke and mirrors given the vendors and buyers.   How these irish stallion masters can look these small vendors in the eye and ask 10k for my latest moderate stallion is amazing.  What do you think of Bated Breath?

I think he is another Monsieur Bond that will get decent older sprinters. He will probably do a little better due to where he is.

Plus. Looking down his  list, the broodmare sire of his runners weren't guaranteed to help him get 2yos. I always felt he would need help in that respect and plenty of it.
I thinkhe has a good chance to increase his profile but that's always a gamble isn't it as most nail their colours to the mast quite early on.
He had the mares, had the popularity and had the right homes so all in all he is a bit disappointing right now.
Not one I would say 'don't go there' with any great certainty though.

And yes, 150 foals later and your filly no.149 appears. Well I don't know what the median price will be but all below it will be in trouble with all these gp 3 wonders.
Prince of Lir anyone?

Twilight Son - £10k, not the heaviest page but looks pretty reasonable.

Mayson £6k. I suppose they had to show an increase and that seems ok to me. Opinions please as he is close to the top of my list. Any better options in that price range(or less)?

Mayson has certainly made a good start, still a fair fee, and he may be the real deal as a sire, but of course by the time you come to sell your foal he will have hit the dreaded third crop and you take a chance on him still being in favour. As an alternative you have another son of Invincible Spirit who also doesn't have the perfect conformation in Cable Bay. He did have a whopper of a first book with plenty of the right names in there and you mightn't be amiss in following that in second season. Physically he is the more imposing of the two aside from his faults. Twilight Son is a slight shock at that fee to me and he'd better be a proper good-looking horse for it to lure me in.

FT what faults does CB have?

I agree that Mayson is slightly ahead of the curve now, but I realise that next year he will probably be back to £5k and £3k by the time I come to sell. For what it's worth my opinion of him purely based on his first crop is that he is better than Foxwedge and Dragon Pulse (both above him on the 1st season table, and not too far off Sepoy, a good bit more expensive than him. I don't think anything below him is better than him. I would say he has a better chance of making it than most 1st season stallions next year at 5/6k and as such is marginally a better bet.

Sorry if this has been covered before but I'm interested in why a breeder would use a new and unproven sire to cover a mare?

Obviously there are bloodline compatability issues which may be solved by using a new stallion.

Price?  Seems to be not a massive amount of value out there?

Availability?  I guess we'd all like to be able to afford a cover by Galileo/Dubawi but its not just the covering fee, its having the mare too...

Apologies for being a simpleton, but it seems a bit like buying a vintage of Bordeaux wine En primeur at a price, hoping to get a good score off Mr Parker when he reviews it?

I suggest you attend the sales BBC. That will explain why 1st season sires are king!!

I'd love to truehoncho-but I would only be window shopping!

Truehoncho, I'd strongly advise inspecting both yourself. CB turns out both fore, or did when I saw him. Mayson wrong a bit off-fore out of training might have improved by now. BBC the attraction of a first -season sire is twofold. The racing career of sire is fresher in the memory of a buyer, and no progeny have failed to win......

Absolutely Formtwist, but I'm a sensible sort of chap and I'd like to see a few years solid results either on the racetrack or at the sales before I shell out that fee......

I'm presuming that Frankel was very popular more for the fact he had a stellar race record and a good page rather than because he was the new kid on the block?

In a way different price bracket but yes, the same rationale. If a breeder uses proven and basically correct with race and pedigree they have to have a top class mare to justify it. Stallions can have progeny in thousands. Mares have 10 to 16 so economic decisions absolutely critical. Only after three foals on ground does the first get tested on course. Selling for profit in the commercial basement is a calculated lottery.

Actually, BBC you are indeed such a sensible sort of chap that you have enjoyed to the full an Elite life at the top table of racing and breeding without much financial risk. Just for fun pretend you are in the position of owning one mare to breed from - say a 75 rated winning mare just retired from racing with form at 5f - 7f over four years on track and worth roughly £15,000. Assume no pedigree inhibitions regarding mating, which stallions would you use for this first year and what financial result would you envisage, colt or filly? Sort of virtual breeding?

So this one's going to the sales then Formtwist-I had myself down as an owner breeder :-)

OK Challenge accepted-let me put my thinking cap on and see what I can come up with...

OK Formtwist-here we go.  May I apologise in advance for my amateurish ramblings you are about to subject yourselves to!

Giving I am paying the nomination myself, I decided that I was going to pick a stallion from GB (less transport costs) and for £10K or under.  As I will be selling the progeny I decided I'd like the best chance of getting the 'Biggest Bang For My Buck' and so have come up with the following stallions:

HELMET-seems great value-seems very commercial-has a G1 winner already-median price for both colts and fillies seems that I'd have a chance of making a profit.
EQUIANO-much as the above-lots of group horses-decent medians for both sexes-plenty of speed

MEDICEAN-lots of group horses-decent medians for both sexes-genuine chance to make some money-more stoutly bred but gets good 2 yo as well-sire of sires too.  I was shocked at his fee to be honest-seems good value-I'm obviously missing something!

MOUNT NELSON-he would be 4th choice-seems good value-gets staying 2yo's who seem to progress with age. Medians for both sexes look pretty decent so I may make a quid or two.

So kind of a mixture of sexy and not so sexy stallions there-I guess some stallions are hot and some are not but unless you have a mare and can afford the fee that can get in to a top stallion (my 75 rated mare wouldn't get a look in at the top boys)then these are not bad options.

I did consider several other stallions but was put off by lots of things like unproven stud records/poor medians for colts and especially fillies and record of progeny at the track.  I did look at some stallions who have had no progeny hit the track and just couldn't bring myself to do it.......

Standing by for incoming-tin hat firmly on

aren't Mount Nelson and Medicean pretty uncool these days?

With you on Helmet and Equiano, awful name former, though.

Nice start there BBC, you have definitely got to grips with the issues. Helmet and Equiano, yes indeed though fees for a £15,000 mare may be a tad high, theory goes for a fee at about a third of value but marketability these days does tend to increase that proportion. Medicean perceived as a sire of fillies as well as a bit long in the tooth, and I think has had some fertility issues (apologies Cheveley if that is wrong) More an owner-breeder type these days. Mount Nelson has hoofed it to Ireland so cross off the list. Hope you are enjoying this!

Yes neill-pretty uncool but represent tremendous value it would seem

I would, if you nailed me down, use HELMET as my first choice.

Given my mare is a sprinter, then both Med/Mt Nelson would mean any progeny have a chance of staying a mile-just a thought as Equiano and Helmet would likely mean any progeny would be a pure sprinter.

Thanks Formtwist-I will look a bit lower down the scale for my 15K mare then.

I'll keep it to 5k and below for the covering fee and see what I come up with....

Fascinating Rock to Ballylinch.

That fee has potential surely. Anyone clapped eyes on him? Is he pig awful?

OK Formtwist-I've had a look at the £5K and less market-here's my thoughts;

FAST COMPANY-decent median for colts-less so for fillies-however 8 horses rated 100+ and 3 group winners and 48% W/R  ratio is not too shabby

MAYSON-Again decent median for colts>fillies-33% W/R and horses rated 100+/listed winners.

I considered other established options including DELEGATOR, CASAMENTO and MONSEUIR BOND but was not overly impressed.

So I then looked at the first season sires.  Obviously, nothing much to go on here other than pedigree/looks but I think CITYSCAPE looks interesting at £4.5K (pretty decent animal and pretty decent page).  Likewise FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH (ironically ex ATTRACTION) was on I would look at too. 

I also looked at OUTSTRIP and SWISS SPIRIT and was none too impressed (SS is well related but has a pretty moderate record himself) and Outstrip (well he's a grey-don't greys only sell well to housewives????).

Awaiting incoming-tin hat on

Another thing in CITYSCAPE's favour is the deal they are offering on his fee if your yearling sells poorly.

Hi BBC. I think CS price at £4.5K is too much even with a deal. Imagine getting the sale and getting £6k for a filly and the sale gets it's money there's £0 for you after all the work.You are just working for the vets, the sales company and the stallion keeper.....for nothing!!

Should be £2k for a filly at the sale.

Fair play truehoncho-the safe play here would be Fast Company I think-proven sire and decent record.  And a reasonable chance that I could get more than £0 for my efforts....

Well, BBC you can cross off Fast Company, the new Darley Club sire in Ireland. Spot on with Mayson and his fee this year will ensure a serious level of support. Fountain of Youth is gorgeous and with that nice Frankel half-brother runniing next year, do hope he throws good correct stock. Cityscape so honest and decent a horse I hope he makes it as a sire, but.?? Anyway, I hope you understand better the angsts of we commercial breeders at low to middle market as a result of your researches.

That a boo from me about Fast Company Formtwist.  Hey Ho. everything I seem to mention ends up over the Irish Sea (I see Champs Elysees is going too.)

FOY-well his mum had dodgy legs IIRC-didn't stop her from being pretty quick/good though.  I guess everyone wants correct foals/yearlings however....

I have to say, I do appreciate a little more what you all have to do for real, with real money, and with your futures depending on it in many cases.  Its scary to think that even if you seem to do it all right, this is not an exact science.

Just so you are aware, the most successful mating in the history of the Elite Racing Club, (Sending the mare Kalinka to Marju resulting in Soviet Song) was initiated for no other reason than the gentleman who organised it had another client who used Marju, and he seemed to be a decent, solid, winning getting sire.....so a fair degree of luck really....

Good luck to you all for  your 2017 coverings...

BBC

All now more or less full:

Markaz
Awtaad
Dariyan
Harzand
Twilight Son

I'm using Adaay. There I said it. No pedigree but what the hell.

I thought not much happening so I'd pop my head above the parapet.

Phew, now my decision likewise seems SO much more sensible! Let's hope he is fertile......

Maybe next year for me.

Blimey that's a conundrum. If, Formtwist, you are barking enough to take comfort in my choices then I think you are perhaps   totally off your trolley and surely I shouldn't want to board this bus?!  What now, should I not sign on the dotted line?

I'll happily admit to barking and being a curmudgeonly old dog averse to new tricks. Personally, I'd quite understand your not signing on that dotted line knowing I'm in that very long list of Adaay users! For me though I have observed that annually you get hearty congratulations on prolific sales of foals and, though I'd never be swayed by anyone's opinions from following my own, I am thus modestly encouraged that we have headed at least one mare each in the same direction. You will of course get a perfect colt that will take Tatts 2018 by storm and I will get a fault-ridden filly..

I like your thinking, he looks a commercial sort and Shadwell will at least be looking at his stock at the sales.

I'd love to use Mehmas as I thought he was such a tough horse, but they'll probably cover a mountain of mares with him.

As you infer FT., it's the nice colt v ordinary filly equation hat has all the bearing here.

I thought that Adaay could do likeable when I saw him. Whether he can do us colt is quite another matter.

I like Mehmas too Wily but like you I have not had to examine my conscience as to whether I would use a 2yo retiree.

I was horrified at the size of Gutaifan's first book and as the connections are so implicit I don't see the likelihood of very much different this time around either.

Meandre standing for €900 in his first season. Must be worth a try for some on a 4 time Gr.1 winner.

How much is a return ticket to Czech?

Mikhail Glinka has a very nice pedigree if you are off the Czech proxygene-if you want to breed a NH horse that is.

By Galileo out of a  full sister to Sir Percy.  But won the Queens Vase.

Not screaming early 2 yos though :-)

Toormore's been pulled.  Home of the Brave or Hawkbill would be nice if they are taking suggestions.

yer ma, what do you mean "been pulled"?

Dont know reason but isnt going to cover.

Lack of interest?

Yes not enough clubbers, some poor decision-making from Darley - how unlike them.   Ever sent mare to France, I'm taken by Exosphere and the 'my' family has a Lohnro winner? Complicated?

I am sure someone will know better than me yer ma, but if they stay silent I would suggest you ring a regular transporter - Weyhill, LRT etc. who will advise, as there is a slight complication if memory serves.

good call yer ma, heard confirmation today that Toormore's tapped out. Careful not to wish for Home of The Brave though, he's built like a hungry whippet!

anyone got a particularly nice foal yet?

Single digit nomination for Toormore hence the reason he has.been relieved of his duties.

Thanks for that juicy particle OTT.

It somewhat surprises me that that is the case because whilst he was not for me, you still sort of think that there will be enough people out there for a 1st season Darley stallion. Hopefully they can learn something and realise that drenching the industry with dubious Club stallions is not a good idea. This scenario may just go some way to informing the mare owners who thought it might be good, that it ain't.

We are in over production. Those stallions who attract the worst mares are jointly responsible for fuelling the bottom. Lest anyone forget, there's no one down there.

Not much to argue with what you say - although slightly odd a pretty decent racehorse is completely rejected when literally dozens of worse horses have covered in the last 5 years.  I personally don't think Darley are the problem here - the irish are the problem and the ITBA / Irish government (talking tax / agricultural policy here) should provide the solution..but thats as likely as a first foal by XYZ new stallion being described as 'scrawny and weak limbed' on the Racing Post. 

This might be a dumb suggestion but what's to stop Weatherby's only accepting 100-120 entries per year per stallion into the stud book.  What could the stallion masters do...start a new stud book?  Huff and puff and moan.  But again there is a lot of hand wringing but no will to fix.

Well there's an interesting thought.

Who actually is the Stud Book?

I get that Weatherbys administer it but is there actually anyone that can have such a final say? (Bet John Warren thinks he's in charge)

I think that Darley Ireland are standing so much dross and whilst we can blame Ireland themselves for being happy with over production Darley should know that these horses aren't good enough and should take a more altruistic line rather than saying we want the dregs visiting our stallions too. What on earth are they doing saying these mares are terrible, let's provide a sufficiently low rent scheme for them to get covered.

And before anyone says anything about the survival of bottom feeders- I am one. Good mares don't have to be expensive but you must have enough confidence in them to be able to commercially cover. And not to have 2 when one will do.

God that was a rant - and well off topic too. Please ignore.

Problem is, I'm still trying to finalise my matings and it's driving me fecking mad. 3 barreners not yet booked, how fecking unprofessional can you get. . .

You can now of course go to the great Frankel's brother Proconsul. The same great bloodlines at, ahem, 2.5% of the price.

What's not to like?

There's not much to like from his picture (and his form). At least Morpheus is the same colour!

Young harper appears to be keen on dealing PotM - are you not a star customer.

I'm still short on one - lots of colts or lots of fillies will dictate her future

Presuming Swiss and Due D are the dealers yer ma?

And Johnny M, Mickley are one of the more local studs to me as it happens.

Should I take 3?

Can't see the angle on Proconsul myself, think he'll struggle.

Swiss S could be worth a punt. Is anyone using Marcel? cant imagine Brian O'R is busting a gut to fill him given he's on the move.

Indeed PotM.  DD would suit but 2nd season tricky - I fear if Swiss Sp doesnt set things alight then the next cheap speed (ie. him) from the farm will suffer.  I should prob have just gone Adaay but that ship has sailed (and I assumed I'd get a Kodi Bear deal which I didnt).

Think there's been a bit of a harsh reaction to Toormore. I was sending a mare to him and thought the club deal was a bargain. Champion European 2yr old, tough as he ran every year and won a group race, and related to another decent horse that's just gone into stud duties.

For me he was a decent bet especially for the owner breeder and the good of racing as a whole, supporting a horse that had been around a while and performed well albeit not at the top level after his 2yr old season. With this encouragement to retire a 2yr old that will not be in the public eye longer than a season, and then rewarded via large books won't be to the good of racing or potentially the breed. If much prefer horses to be tested over longer raving careers which could hopefully encourage more people to the sport and if mare owners supported them could potentially breed more tough horses that would last and might encourage more owners into the game.

I'd even go for four PotM.

Heard Marcel was struggling for support but whether Makin will allow a deal I couldn't say.

Wow PM, 3 mares ready to go and you haven't finalised where you're going!

How come?  Is it the mind boggling over supply of first season sires?  The bottom falling out of the bottom of the market and overproduction? Are you worried your mares might be uncommercial and shouldn't be covered at all? Are your chosen stallions full or is it a combination of all of the above or something entirely different?

Stay strong PM, your judgement has seen you through until now so I'm sure you'll make the right call.

in my experience its always worth giving the stud a call at this time of year,even if stallion might be full. Mares die, have bad foalings etc. Ive often managed to get a nomination when a stallion was supposed full. Previously got a late Mukhadram after a nomination dropped out.

Agree, it is a bit strange that Gr1 winner Toormore is not wanted, when his Gr 2 winning 1/2 bro could be popular!?

You are right Wily, I shall try a call tomorrow. Mind you it's never worked for me before and I suspect later in the season is more likely when the droppage by the wayside is more fathomable.
So yes, too late for one but only one.
The bottom of the bottom Posh, yes it is on my mind for sure. I sold the odd foal last year for less than I'd hoped and that is more than likely to happen in today's market. So I am keen to keep it to a minimum as it is such a shame when any proper touches have to be sacrificed to too greater an extent to the god of the undesirables.
My problem is always one of budget versus commerciality versus compatibility. I can't bear sacrificing pedigree or conformation considerations to the god of the fast buck.

When I did a whistle stop tour of Ireland in December yer ma, Kodi Bear had a good vibe about him so I am not surprised that they weren't dealing. He was a nice lump, if a little short on quality perhaps. I didn't want to travel for him but I would have given him more thought if he'd been over here.

I think Whitsbury have enough goodwill for a while yet. No one else has produced a Rags to riches Showcasing recently over here. I also feel we know the deal. These are cheap commercial stallions. Attrition will be high!

Proconsul is all about a cheap way into a premier bloodline I'm guessing?  They must be hoping he will be the Fairy King to Frankel's 'Sadler's Wells'.  He form on the racecourse is dire and there are better options even at that price?

I'm sure 'full brother to the greatest racehorse ever Frankel' will be prominent in his brochure???

Your distaste of the Darley Club PotM, is noted. However I dont think anyone else is offering much value. Adaay is moderate with little chance of success and has a fee twice what it should be in an overproducing market. Toormore would be ok at a smaller stud with a £3k fee.

Well the ubitiquous racing journal did site lack of interest so I'm hopeful the source is correct re numbers potm.

Have to say comments above are spot on. Champion 2yo and G1 winner at 2 and consistent G2 winner subsequently. And to my thoroughly untrained eye a bit of a looker too. I seem to recall knee problems being mentioned at some point but not sure that would be an issue or not.

Maybe as TH says a downgrading in operation and a reduction might stir up some interest

Darley have completely destroyed their brand. They used to be a brand for excellence now they are bargain basement. They would help themselves and the industry better if they concentrated on quality.

cant wait for the flat to start. my pick for champ FSS - Society Rock

Can't see that there was the need for a replacement for Dick Turpin so that can't have helped.

Might have and could yet make up for Fast Company's brief spell at somewhere like Overbury?

Society Rock for me too.

The problem is truehonch, perception appeal fashion call it what you will, has Adaay full, even though as you say the price is  toppy. He will need to drop in year two but given a first year premium and a 50% ownership byEuropes premium commercial buyer it's not difficult to see why he is so.
Dick Turpin is shaping up to be one of the Legendary bad sires in the mould of Mystiko and Bigstone. That is some stopper I am afraid for Toormore and for me him looking a bit like an Irish Hunter is not great either.

Poor Toormore, the Claudio Ranieri of the equine world. Although at least he lasted a season.

I agree PotM. My point is that no one is getting any value, especially owners. We need much more choice at the lower end of the market.