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Frankelampard
06 Feb 16 17:59
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Date Joined: 16 Jul 15
| Topic/replies: 87 | Blogger: Frankelampard's blog
I'm new to the bloodstock world and still earning, I'm really enjoying reading about pedigrees and how certain blood lines mix well with others etc. However, one question I have for any expert out there is this. Where exactly does the division between being flat or jumps bred come into it? Is it that the sire has provided a lot of jumps winners or is it down to the dam? For instance, Kings Theatre was a flat horse but seemed to be used for jumps horses. Another scenario, when Annie Power heads off to the breeding sheds, if she were to be covered be Galileo would that be a jumps or flat bred horse?
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Report Frankelampard February 6, 2016 6:00 PM GMT
*still learning
Report Big Black Cat February 7, 2016 11:02 PM GMT
Frankelampard, I am no breeding expert-a bit like you I am an enthusiastic followerof bloodlines, but here goes and hope it may help.

Most horses successful in the NH world are geldings.  There are some notable exceptions (Champion Hurdle winners such as Alderbrook and Royal Gait were entire horses IIRC).

So to breed NH horses, stallions would usually be horses who were stayers on the flat, or have staying pedigrees.

So horses like Kayf Tara (won the Ascot Gold Cup on the flat) and Kings Theatre (won a King George on the flat) Presenting (placed in an Epsom Derby) have/have been NH sires, as they impart more stamina than speed into the breed.

Some stallions are 'dual purpose' including the late great Sadler's Wells who sired numerous G1 winning horses on the flat from a mile upwards (Barathea was a Breeders Cup Mile winner) and also sired some successful horses over jumps....notably Champion hurdler Istabraq and Gold Cup winner Synchronised....he really WAS the daddy though....

Hope that helps.
BBC
Report Big Black Cat February 7, 2016 11:10 PM GMT
To answer your question vis a vie whether a Galileo x Annie Power cross would be a NH horse or a flat horse, then more likely a NH horse as Galileo is usually an influence for stamina (he did breed a decent miler called Frankel though).

Its not an exact science though as DANDINO (Dansili x Generous Diana) won over a mile -1M 4F and ran very well in a Melbourne Cup, whilst DOLY CARTE (Doyen x Generous Diana) was a listed winning NH mare over hurdles.  Doyen was a middle distance colt on the flat and Dansili basically a miler IIRC.
Report Frankelampard February 8, 2016 1:33 AM GMT

Feb 7, 2016 -- 5:10PM, Big Black Cat wrote:


To answer your question vis a vie whether a Galileo x Annie Power cross would be a NH horse or a flat horse, then more likely a NH horse as Galileo is usually an influence for stamina (he did breed a decent miler called Frankel though).Its not an exact science though as DANDINO (Dansili x Generous Diana) won over a mile -1M 4F and ran very well in a Melbourne Cup, whilst DOLY CARTE (Doyen x Generous Diana) was a listed winning NH mare over hurdles.  Doyen was a middle distance colt on the flat and Dansili basically a miler IIRC.


I guess my question wasn't clear, is there a hard and fast rule to decide whether a horse is flat or nh bred or is it down to what discipline they are most likely to be suited to? So my example of a Galileo x Annie Power may have the pace to be a flat horse it is more likely to end up being a 2 mile hurdler?

Another question, which may have an easy answer, is why do they tend to geld nearly all horses in the nh game? Is it simply down to temperament? I remember being a bit surprised when Gemix, the French Champion Hurdler from a few years ago was retired to stud.

Report Formtwist February 8, 2016 8:09 AM GMT
Another insomniac on the forum I see!  The simple answer to your question is that it is the intention of the breeder that concludes it. On foal registration the purpose Flat, NH or dual is recorded and totals published annually. Flat breeders aim for precocity in general as races on the flat are for 2 year olds upward. Old fashioned NH breeders want bigger, later  maturing horses with stamina and scope. There is overlap somewhere in the middle. Most colts in both spheres are gelded at some stage as not worth a place at stud. Jumpers, especially over fences, risk a painful experience if they are not.........! Geldings have a better life as they can be turned out in groups, colts and stallions can't.
Report Frankelampard February 8, 2016 1:02 PM GMT

Feb 8, 2016 -- 2:09AM, Formtwist wrote:


Another insomniac on the forum I see!

Report Jezebel March 4, 2016 1:43 PM GMT
There is no hard and fast rule.  Generally speaking, foals out of NH mares will be NH-bred.  Most Group 1 winning colts at up to 12f will be marketed as Flat stallions first, then if they fail to make the grade with their first couple of Flat crops they'll either be sold to somewhere like Greece or India, or if they have a bit of stamina in their pedigree will be re-marketed as a NH stallion.  King's Theatre, to use an example quoted upthread, was originally intended to be a Flat sire - he shuttled to Australia for at least a couple of seasons - before connections bowed to the inevitable and focused on the NH side.  Colts who win beyond 12f, like St Leger and Ascot Gold Cup winners, are more likely to be sent straight down the NH stallion route because experience has shown that commercial Flat breeders won't touch them with somebody else's bargepole.  You'll get the odd one advertised as "dual purpose" from the outset, which is stud-marketing-speak for "probably going to be sh!te at both".

Sadler's Wells was dual purpose in fact but never in intention or marketing. No one sending a mare to him, or to Galileo or Montjeu, would have been hoping to breed a Cheltenham Festival winner (in the same way as Frankie Dettori wasn't hoping to get a QMC winner when he sent his mare to Dubawi).  He just had a lot of stock that didn't make the grade hoped for them on the Flat or that their breeding would have suggested they were capable of - Istabraq's dam also produced Derby winner Secreto to SW's sire Northern Dancer, for example, so three CHs wasn't on Hamdan Al Maktoum's mind when he bred him - but who were sound enough and classy enough to make decent hurdlers in particular.

There is more money and quicker returns in Flat breeding than NH, so if there is even a small chance of a horse making it as a Flat stallion, that's usually what its connections will go for at least at the start of its career.
Report Big Black Cat March 4, 2016 3:38 PM GMT
I nearly destroyed my computer at your definition of 'dual purpose' Jezebel..... :-)

I take it you were not including Sadler's Wells in that? :-)

There are probably few stallions who have sired all 4 classic winners, an Ascot GC winner plus a CH and GC winner over jumps? 

All the best
BBC
Report kincsem March 5, 2016 5:27 PM GMT
If the produce Group winners on the flat they remain flat sires.  If they produce sprinters they remain flat sires.
Report cacique July 16, 2016 8:54 AM BST

Mar 4, 2016 -- 9:38AM, Big Black Cat wrote:


I nearly destroyed my computer at your definition of 'dual purpose' Jezebel..... :-)I take it you were not including Sadler's Wells in that? :-)There are probably few stallions who have sired all 4 classic winners, an Ascot GC winner plus a CH and GC winner over jumps?  All the bestBBC


All 4 classics?
Which one are you trying to leave out?

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