New sires 2015

Good thinking Commissioner Mustang.

Unfortunately again and again 1st seasoners are often the place to be commercially.

Normally I would be thinking Mukhadram is not one that requires much thought. But if you place a 1st seasoner high up your wish list, I think this year lack of competition might have him above the radar. I haven't given his pedigree any attention but I did give his physique some attention on King George day and it is hard to ignore.

An expensive foal, and there is no doubt why, and a tough and gutsy performer, there are more than a few pluses here perhaps.

I really like this horse. lovely pedigree. I will use him. probably not first season because he will probably be too expensive, but maybe 2nd or 3rd season.

I'm guessing around £10k, is that fair?

I'd be amazed if this horse stands for 10k, could see him pitched at a similar fee to the mighty Aqlaam myself,but even at that fee is he really the sort commercial breeders would use.I was recently speaking to connections during the conversation his name came up,it was intimated his fee will be 'cheap'If I was considering using him (I'm not)then if I took a purely commercial view it would only be first season,that said the mare I'd send would need to have commercial appeal herself.

Feck me. Howard Hughes has landed on Breeding and Bloodstock once more!

Good to hear from you Howie.

I am pretty close to you with Mukhadram as there are too many parallels with Mawatheeq in many ways.
He does have reasons why he could be a good sire even though I acknowledge opportunity might not be one of them.

Tough consistent horses though are my favourite prospects and at least the best 2 or 3 offspring will find a good home at the sales.

I think as a cheapie he will be worthy of consideration at least.

Well hello Pot M,it's been rather a long time hasn't it.You are right,he is perhaps worthy of consideration....but only as a cheapie but certainly not 2nd or 3rd season!He is a good looker at least.Hope things are going nicely at your new place,have often wondered how your getting on.

Thanks Prima. I think that after stringing together a few good years I was due a dive and this season has been it!

Happy in the new place although I think the horses could have been a little more grateful and at least made some effort to stay alive/healthy. However as the sales march into view, I have a few entries and in fairness the worst of the wrist slashing episodes are hopefully behind us.

Going forward though, I am not particularly happy with this years matings so I need some turnarounds there too.

I thought I might take the opportunity to bring up Alhebayeb as this is the appropriate forum.
Obviously precocious and possessed of a current sireline but he doesn't appear to be good enough really. He is one of those horses that needs a good venue if he is to stand any chance. What do we all think, is Tara still relevant enough?

Good to hear from you PD and thanks for the reply. Will take it on board as always. We can now add Sea The Moon at 15k.

If Mukadram is going 'cheap', then i will use him 1st season. It may not be the most commercial decision but a nice colt by him will motivate me a little on those wet Scottish winter mornings.

Kirsten Rausing strikes again, love this women, screw commercial lets make racehorses.

PD good to hear from you.

My issue with Alhebayab is when did a winner of the July Stakes do anything at stud? http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Stakes

PM, I was at Part 1 of the Tatts sales and it was very strong, a box walking filly made €28K, she was very nice though, but still.  I'm sure you'll do fine.

Thats a bit of surprise.  I was bang on the money fee wise but tbh I'd say they'd get a better / bigger book on the continent.   The prospect of having Sir Mark running them off 50 in 12f Wolv 3yo hcaps isnt what commercial dreams are made of but you never know.  Could be a good bit of business if the momentum keeps going with Born to Sea too.  Too rich and (more importantly) too slow for my mares.

I too was interested in Alhebayeb but do I want to send a mare over at that level when all sort will be (probably) walking-in at 3 for a pound?

Coolmore really need something exciting in the

Or of course Kirsten might be setting out to breed a whole host of horses that break down after 5 starts. Time will tell!

I think if I had her level of funding I might take her course, it must be great fun, Posh.

How are you anyway? Has the great migration back to the old country been assessed as a good one? Do you have some sort of gainful employment that keeps you amused or is it a case of living off those fabulous riches you accumulated over here in the big smoke?

The usual conundrum yer ma, shipping over to be one of 5 thousand  who get to produce their cheap and cheerful  for 5k less than we do. Right now, I am blowing more Gale Force, but we shall see what his fee level is. Given the level of promotion he is enjoying I don,t see them going in at the tuppence ha'penny end of the market though.

Yes GFT has appeal although INS seem to be in stack em high mode at the moment which is a worry.   Muwaary was one I thought could do a job at nunnery / third party stud but seems to have disappeared.  One of ours has a nice showcasing runner so interesting how far they push or going with another OD son makes more sense.  War Command is surely good enough to do a job at Coolmore?  Havent thought much of some of their recent racing choices though and might even be a pacemaker for Australia at Ascot.

Surely Johnny Mustang can now be revealed as the nom de plume of Harry Herbert and we can all politely ask him too arrange a Toronado/Olympic Glory Swap.
The National Stud is on my side of Newmarket, a good 10 minutes closer than Dalham/Cheveley Park. That must give them good reason to stand O G over here and guarantee my patronage?

If I had one tenth of his money I'd be happy PotM. I think the most polite way of describing what's happening is that they're keeping the 'good' one in France, although I have to say that I'm not a big fan of either of their sires. Can already see HH planning his 2018 Highclere prospectus, including the Toronado and Olympic Glory syndicates.

No room in those syndicates sadly J M, they are all fully booked with Paco Boys and anything offered for sale by Highclere Stud.

Oh the power of the breeding forum.  War Command duly retired to Coolmore.  10k Euro please.

just one ? off topic ,why is mawatheeq such a negative stallion ,ive seen people slate him on this forum ,he's a good looker(so am told) by danzig and from a good female line ,just wonder n what ive missed just curious thats all.

Stallions by and large lingbleed need good support to succeed.
If you are trying to breed a staying late maturing classic type of horse you are usually patient AND wealthy.
If you are those things then  Dansili, Oasis, Galileo Dubawi are available!
If you are trying to breed a commercial horse with low overheads then speed speed speed is largely where it's at.

Mawatheeq misses, on both counts, so support will be patchy and chances of success likewise.

Wasn't he also somewhat er.... wayward, a la Echo Of Light.

Thanks potm ,good brief summary there ,pretty much explains everything ,defo changes my view on horse's been retired and certain races targeted ,so every owner's worst dream is getting stuck in that middle bubble ,also really liked famous name as a race horse also seen at the irish NS ,now i fear he falls into that bracket all so .

Your mention of Famous Name lingbleed is a great indication that my last piece of gobbledygook was perhaps a bit more use than is the norm.
I know that the sporadic Prima Donna feels that these staying type of sires below classic level are doomed to failure because of their lack of speed anyway but I feel that it has to be more about lack of opportunity. I mean how could a 120+ performer with Mawatheeq's pedigree not be intrinsically of more merit than a scrubily bred 114er by Dark Angel, say?

But we know which one gets the opportunities so as we can never judge them as like with like we shall argue black and white well beyond the cows coming home.

Small plea here to Messrs Coolmore Stud. Having just announced the retirement of THE commercial prospect for 2015 and no, his name is not Australia, that In the absence of your total inability to restrict a book to reasonable numbers could you perhaps keep his fee slightly above 'Clearance Sale' levels in the hope that the volume of product doesn't become TOO thinly spread and your poor little 4yo can average less than 4 mares a day thus giving us a chance to actually emerge pregnant in the first place?

Ta.

Indeed, but how many multiples of Yer Ma's hope of a fee would be needed for that to happen 2.5, 3?

Well proxy, that's got me thinking.

I know I am not universally agreed with on this one but I do think there is a hell of a range for an initial stud fee to land in and I do think this very much establishes the value people then expect to place on the subsequent offspring.

You can outsell a cheap cover for sure but I also think a fat fee can bale you out slightly when all is not well with a given crop because of the expectations in the mind of the buyer.
I think everyone is agreed that Declaration of war was too expensive last year and I imagine that his book size won't be truly humongous because of it. However it's Coolmore here and their loyal following will have got them out of trouble and with War Command, I think the fee level could be highish as you suggest because group wins and a nigh on champion 2yo status can be spun so readily.

Oh and another plea. I can't cope with any more 'War' names for War Front progeny. I am getting too old to distinguish and what with having lost the battle of distinguishing the Muns at Shadwell I am looking for fewer pointers to my Dementia, not greater!

I think anything over 15 euro is too high.  He bombed as a 3yo (although I think AOB has made some very ropy race choices this year with many decent 3yos) and beat VERY few decent horses at 2(go and check).  Now that's clearly not what Coolmore will blitz us with but its fact.  That doesnt mean I dont like him as commercial speed sire.  Power's record and breeding is superior and he started at 12.5k.  Dec of War fee was silly and very great chance they'll get a better War Front that WC in the next few seasons so you could be on v thin ice at a 20k+ fee.  Imo it would be purely exploiting the lack of anything else sexy to go higher money.  I think Kingman will be 40kish, it'd be barmy to pay 10k less for this sort of lad (although clearly getting into Kingman will be the issue)

Es Que Love.  Not in love with Maurice's lateral thinking.  Be surprised if the Tsui's are either.  Think I'd rather have one covered by his yearling invincible spirit brother.

war command does not run that bad this year
in st james, he was last and made a good finish
in the eclipse, it was such a messy race

AND he was a good 2 years old

Given his connections I was thinking Es Que Love might make an appearance but I thought they would try and tack a bit more race record onto him.
His 22k yearling price tag and the buyer who is not discerning as we know is, a harbinger of not all being great on the conformation front so he is a treat as wary for a start.
I wonder what War Command looks like? Power looks an ugly beggar in line with a 50k not sold yearling tag. Coolmore know that they can charge top dollar if we walk into the yard and are impressed. We shall see

On the topic. Could we please have fees post yearling sales again this year, rather than the December sales announcements that we seem to be moving towards?

Joshua Tree retired to stand in France

triple Canadian International winner retired to stud with a fee of €2,500 for the 2015 breeding season

Charm Spirit. That's come from left field to me. Interesting.

Noble Mission. Surely too? Banstead?

Bungleinthejungle
Es Que Love
Alhabayeb
Heeraat
Xtension
Moohajim

....Holy s**t! Its a "pile 'em high and flog 'em cheap" feel to new stallions this year. I think I will have to put my hand in my pocket for once to try and get something a bit better. I fear I might be struggling.

Wily, for god's sake have Mrs (or Mr) Cayote standing by with A&E on speed dial, heaven only knows what might be living in those pockets. . .

I see where you are coming from with the pile'em high analogy, but I'm not sure they are selling them so cheap!

With no choice but to freeze the fee of a 'wrong year' stallion, it may very well be the year that they seem like value in these inflationary times. Problem is for me, that the minute I see that blob appear on the scanner is the minute that I start the "oh god, it's the wrong year, so we're all going to hell in a handcart" and that dear reader is how I remain for the next 18 months.

Perhaps Prozac is the answer?

P s. You'll all need Prozac if you haven't yet heard the fee for Slade Power, stock up. . .

YORGUNNABELUCKY?

full brother to Shamardal, has he any chance?

If Ballylinch got away with 17.5k for Dream Ahead, then 20k for Slade Power isn't quite Prozac territory is it? Although...

Just looked at the Darley roster. I don’t see much value. Doesn't seem too many options for small commercial breeders. I thought with the amount of stallions being available there may be some cheaper options but seems not.

Well I suppose we can split infinitives until the cows come home proxy and I know your pedigree analysis will give you an angle that is not available to me. Lethal Force was 12 sterling though and higher rated than Slade Power and Dream Ahead was a champion at 2'and 3 and of course then you hit the 5 k not sold yearling for Slade Power.
I was told his price last week when I had a foal inspected by Darley. I made no comment because I was very slightly speechless but I got the distinct impression that the member of personnel was standing back slightly whilst imparting the news in anticipation of a reaction!

It seems to me that Sheikh Mo is still going in all guns blazing to purchase these horses and whilst he perhaps used to think more long term/with a sense of benevolence now the breeder is expected to pick up the tab for his zealotry?

I would have thought Cape Cross and Kheleyf could do a job, but probably not a particularly commercial one.

Pre-sales inspections by Darley eh....;)

Return to the same points every year.  Darley are swamped by arab owned mares who soak up (at inflated prices) their stallions capacity. It isn't good for their stallions and it's no good for 'proper' commercial breeders.   That said if you  get into the right stallion with a good producing mare then skys the limit.  Slade Power price doesnt surprise me and they'll be full by end Nov.  Might put a bit of pressure on Coolmore not to go mental with War Command as he's similar market imo.  Farhh at £12k is ok.  Sepoy at 15k makes no sense other than comments above.  Little case for questioning Mukhadram at 7k eh

Stay calm yer ma - I am! - just a PR exersize to those that have used their stallions.

judging by the conversation in my visit, they will be expecting to deal with the obvious wrong'uns - be it year or otherwise.
I suppose in a way Iffraaj isn't the worst, but now more than ever, proven sires are too expensive. The downside on them when you just breed an ordinary one and worst still when that provener has dropped out of fashion is massive

what do you think about coolmore "politics"?
put every new stallion at a very HIGH price....and cut the price about 50 % when the first runners at 2 arrive
like pour moi, CCliffs, ...

do you think the breeders will continue in this kind of game??

I'm all for it Roy Jones.

First season sires are highly prized by breeders because they are highly prized by buyers and actually even many owner breeders can get seduced by the new and the sexy.

Third and fourth year stallions are very high risk and to keep their books large, incentives on price are a good idea.

The price fluctuations you refer to are a very genuine marker of supply and demand economics. The rest of the world rolls to that tune, should our game not?

Proxygene, what don't you like about Dream Ahead? Is it just the Diktat thing? I was half thinking about a punt on  him for next season if they dropped the price 4th season

i agree with you PM, it is all about aconomic...

but the fee of coolmore stallion like pour moi and C Cliffs have a huge decrease

darley stallion like poet voice had a stable fee

i prefer the darley phylosophy
a lot of coolmore stallions have disappear last years quite fast

Hi Ovalu, no problems with Dream Ahead just the price for a son of Diktat. All for retaining some diversity but that seemed a fair premium for the risk if no buyers were onboard, though that doesn't seem to have been the case. I also wonder why horses wander when under pressure.

No Nay Never.

Coolmore seem to be on message this year at the 'commercial' end.

Might not sign my Fumble in the Bungle contract after all. . .

Sad to not at least be thinking about Noble Mission.

sad to go USA !!!
for those who do not have the money for frankel ;-)

ANODIN full brother to the mighty Goldikova at stud in France
gr 1 place in the BC mile

OK, hands up, who had heard of Morpheus before yesterday?

not me !!!

Sorry to take so long to get back to you PM, I’ve had few iron’s in various fires and I didn’t want to jinx anything by saying anything too early.

I have finally (after 4 months) managed to find employment in the transport department of a well known Bloodstock Agency in Kildare and have just finished my first week there.  The commute from Tipp is an hour and a half which is the same as I did in England and the wage is less than a third of what I was earning in the UK, however I am loving it and am grateful for the opportunity to be involved with such an established company and in the Industry I love.

In the intervening 4 months I enjoyed the summer holidays with the kids and helped my wife set up a Racing Syndicate – Fun Fillies Racing – “Ireland’s Premier Racing Syndicate for Women” for a filly purchased at Tatts September sales (pics below).  The "Blade" is in a field and I've paid his keep bill upfront until Dec 2015 by which time he should be mended enough for a new career.

Kids are now settled in new schools, have a Pony to learn to ride on and their own chicken each so they are happy out.  I can’t say I miss the UK as a country, just the people in it.

I’ll be at the Goffs & Tatts foal sales so if any forumites fancy a pint or two just let me know.

Anyway back to the topic in hand, I have to say I’ve been fairly shocked by the fees this years, ok the sales have been good but the median for Tatts Oct was up 7% yet stallion fees seem to be up about 25%!  The studs are charging what they think they can get away with.  I was speaking to a renowned shrewd operator over here and he said he would have been all over No Nay Never but is having second thoughts at €20K when the likes of Dark Angel are €27.5.

Gale Force 10 at €5k certainly looks the value option so far but I'd say he will be very popular and you will be one of 150 odd if you do use him.  If you are looking to benefit from a future up year then maybe Dandy Man could be the way to go?

Nice to hear your news Posh.

You are obviously much more a go getter than me, actively forcing the next chapter of your life to happen! I am pleased it is all going well and that all is settled for Mrs Paddy and the Paddettes too.
Even the next champion procured, glad to see you not hanging around!

Back on message. . .

Having just spied a picture on the website, and I am feeling slightly sick typing this, I fear that Garswood is starting to look a lot more likely at the announced fee. . . Am I alone with these pervy thoughts?!

Don't think you'll be the only one waving the red white and blue flag. I still think there is a sparsity of options (if such a word exists), so I haven't yet been able to cross Captain Gerrard, Hellvelyn, Kheleyf or Delegator off the list in consequence but I think I should.

proxygene, you have included a mix of unproven and established sires left in your list. Captain Gerrard and Hellvelyn haven't yet shown much from crops so far, though they might yet do so, but in the same sort of fee bracket Compton Place and Firebreak always produce a class act most crops and might be added to your list. The thread is new sires though, and on looks and performance, if not precocity Mukhadram does now deserve serious attention. Garswood promised much and to my eye delivered little but who knows, he might be worth a punt. It, as always, depends on the mare you have. Heeraat is an interesting inbreeding to Ahonoora and cheap enough to consider. Higher up the ladder Charm Spirit seems a bargain as a sound multiple Group 1 Invincible Spirit, compared with Kingman -  if you have a mare with a pedigree worth the investment.

Hi Formtwist, I do like Compton Place but not for the mare in mind. I need to sell offspring and with fixed costs believe noms below £6k make this much more difficult. I could do with a degree of restocking but this will compromise the sire budget so I may be dredging deeper than usual particularly if I look to support any new mare with proven mates. Of course much of this may be pie in the sky and at some point my pension pot will need a jackpot to catch up on the small time investment thats been laid out so far. At this stage Charm Spirit is out of range and I am contrary enough to not want to be one of 150+ mares to any stallion, I dont think my 2 mares could stand out within those numbers. Although maligned on here for their level of fee setting I think the subsequent book size does give a better chance of a profit with for example a Cheveley Park mating, however I suspect Garswood might get flooded on first season due to lack of competition at that fee level.

Battle Of Marengo to Ballyhane, so I'm told.

Why does Ballyhane need another middle of the road son of Galileo? I'd have thought they would wait to see if Rodderic pans out for them first.

not a big fan of this one...or have I missed an angle?

Not much wrong with him at 2 and 3 and I suppose the Sixties Icon effect is helping connections with their convictions. Not sure the Sixties Icon effect is very current these days though.

There's a YouTube video of an interview at his box door with connections. Might be an idea if you've a killer mare you're determined to cover, he might solve that problem!

Coach House - £3,000.00.  Now when I saw it my initial thought was Coach Who? but on closer inspection his pedigree looks ok, his dam was decent and he certainly looks value, the UK's version of Gale Force Ten.

My thoughts exactly Posh Paddy. Now that I've had a good look into COACH HOUSE and it looks like it stacks up: Good sire, good dam, and he was only beaten by a drugged up No Nay Never in record time in the Norfolk.

don't know what his injury was, but when you put him against some of the stallions that have been dragged back to Ireland he could look value at 3k.

Albaasil, £1750 Longdon Stud.

actually, i discover a new stallion every day
coach house, morpheus....

lol

I think Coach House at £3k looks better value than Morpheus at 6k Euros.

Goffs foal sale looks hot, anyone from this forum poked a head in there?

I ve been at Goffs all week. Hot is an understatement, it's borderline mental. Kodiacs obviously selling well, the dragon pulses, born to sea and casementos are flying.  If you ve winners on the page and a nice walk you're making 30 to 40.  If you be no paper and no walk you are still getting 5 to 10. Lots of new buyers throwing money about, some of the established players can t buy.  Lots of happy vendors and shell shocked pinhookers looking annoyed that they have been blown out the water by 10 to 15k by a bunch of kids.

On a more somber note my wife's "fun filly" was put down this morning after getting herself into trouble on a horse walker. She s pretty upset but at least the filly was insured and was given the best medical treatment until the end.