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22 Oct 13 17:30
Date Joined: 09 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 470 | Blogger: sammy_fool's blog
new stallions 2014 coming thick and fast now
there seems to be very big stud fees attached to this years batch plus wheres the mares going to come from

looks like the yearling sales prices going up has gone to there heads

lethal force -12500 stg ? =other options dark angel himself ,harbour force or equiano
intello -25000 stg = oh my god ,must be some horse ,sixties icon ,nathanial even teofilo
cityscape -5000 stg =expensive
Leroidesanimaux -17500 stg =crazy and mad-is this true
al kazeem -? like him
north light -6000 k stg =crazy
camelot -?
farhh -? like him
reckless abandon -?
dawn approach-?
olympic glory _?
sna -?
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Report neill d October 22, 2013 8:06 PM BST
Camelot must surely be the play here at around than 30-50k? given his sire, speedy dam side, Guineas win and 500k yearling tag, he is a stunning looking horse.

There will probably never be a better time to retire Olympic Glory as he needs bad ground so it is going to probably be another year before he gets the chance to show his best again.

Farbh is by far the best racehorse of all the retirees much as I love St Nick.
Report neill d October 22, 2013 8:08 PM BST
Isn't Intello by Shamardal who wasn't the best looker in the world, couldn't ya probably get that big head for a bit less in France with Lope de Vega
Report Meghaduta October 23, 2013 12:38 AM BST
Intello Galileo
Report Wilycayote October 23, 2013 8:41 AM BST
Is it just me, or would it make more sense if Cityscape went to Lanwades, and North Light went to Overbury. Perhaps they can arrange a swap!

I'm struggling to find a commercial option. I hope Bahamian and Compton are feeling sprightly for next year!!
Report truehoncho October 23, 2013 10:16 AM BST
I have just been looking at the foal catalogue and there are a few by Compton Place in there. I think yearlings will sell by him but has he much of a profile with buyers? For that matter if you were looking at buying a foal (less than 10k), what sires would you be looking at?
Report neill d October 25, 2013 12:07 AM BST
Apologies Meghaduta, I really should have known that.
Report randomtwat November 10, 2013 12:17 PM GMT
Hi trueoncho Ive been reading through foal book so far just gone through the first day and to me its more about the commercial side
on first day.I would say mark down what you see as a long term project and then mark down what you see as more selling prospect it
all depends on what your really looking for and your own budget as well.If the markets hold up like they have been recently then this foal sale going to see some crazy prices for foals,was watching and reading through the keenland sales and there was an war front foal that sold for $800,000 it amazes me what some do go for
Report truehoncho November 11, 2013 9:39 PM GMT
Thanks for the comments Random. I will let you know how I get on.
Report randomtwat November 12, 2013 8:58 AM GMT
Know problem TrueHoncho I'll be up there myself taking a view and gathering more data for myself and notes for the future reference
Going to be interesting seeing odd one or two have marked down that are related to an few horses i looked after  in past.If you have the time could stop for a chat in person exchange notes on what have seen from some of the foals. I'm always open to listening to someone who has taken the plunge and is breeding and selling pm me if you are interested in meeting for a chat at sales
Report potentialmillionaire November 12, 2013 1:46 PM GMT
Truehonch, apologies for not seeing your query before but I thought a tale from last year might be of interest.

I sold a foal who was by a very chilly sire. It was a nice foal and was sold to a known judge and it was perfectly profitable for me and I left satisfied if not a little 'what might have been'

Fast forward to this years round of yearling sales and the distinctly chilly sire had become frozen to the spot. My only hope for the pin hooker was that they still had a nice horse on their hands and they could break even.

No worries, they did have a nice horse and they very nearly trebled it's value! Now that's why I sell largely as foals because I am sure that sale as a yearling would have been beyond me but it always does us good to be reminded of the popularity of a nice horse above all else.

So don't get too hung up on your sires!

I am not sure that Ravens Pass is any where near the real deal, but it sure as hell didn't hold Team T O'callaghan back this time!
Report yer ma November 13, 2013 8:36 PM GMT
Intense Focus 10k, and Jim don't allow discounts btw.  Yearling median 2012 11k and 2013 (mostly post Gimcrack Astaire) 11k.  Arrogance or greed?

Instead of all the irrelevant guff in the Owners & Breeders and the TBA paying accountancy firms to tell us what we already about someone confronting the stallion owners over the logic of their fees?  Makes energy companies seem like philathropists.
Report potentialmillionaire November 13, 2013 9:12 PM GMT
Couldn't agree more yer ma.

What stallion masters seem incapable of grasping is that the markets are not universally hot. I has been fabulous if you have the top stock of the top stallions but all in the garden is most definitely not rosy.

I wonder how many studs pay any attention to the shape and size of the broodmare population and just how many sires we need. I think a certain establishment in Tipperary once again show why they are always at the top of the game as despite their detractors, there is always value to be had there if you look properly, and you ignore them at your peril.

Intense Focus don't float my boat at that price.
Report roy jones November 15, 2013 5:18 PM GMT
hello PoM,

i would like to have your opinion on harbour watch?
he is by a good sire of sire, a very decent pedigree
he was injured, but all of his 3 races since very very pleasant !!

i love reading your annalysis, really good stuff m8

thanks for your help

NB: for me a lot of the stallions of Tipperary have some good results but the sales are not very good when you compare to darley and co
Report potentialmillionaire November 15, 2013 6:12 PM GMT
Can anyone throw any light on the 9500 foal and 8500 yearling price of Lethal Force yet
I.e. has anyone seen him yet!
Report Wilycayote November 15, 2013 7:24 PM GMT
Someone I respect says that "he wouldnt stop a pig in a corridor".

For those of you that dont speak fluent farmer, it means he turns his knees out quite a lot coming towards you. Having seen him at Ascot, I know that he has a fairly poor walk.

HOwever, I think its foolish to be overely critical about a sprinters walk. Many top class sprinter have a less than fluid walk, it tends to come with the territory of big shoulders/quarters. I would consider using Lethal Force if he was in my price bracket....unfortunately he's not.
Report truehoncho November 16, 2013 10:40 AM GMT

if you have moderate mares as I do, you can't take a chance on dodgy conformation.

By the way, I was offered a discount on Swiss Spirit without trying.
Report truehoncho November 16, 2013 10:41 AM GMT

sorry about the spelling!
Report Wilycayote November 16, 2013 11:19 AM GMT
Looks like we are two of the same mind!...I've provisionally booked one of mine into Swiss Spirit at £4k which is more my kind of price.

At my level I find it easier to make a profit on commercial speed than do anything more complicated. It might be a little unimaginative, but at the moment its more about paying the bills!
Report truehoncho November 16, 2013 11:31 AM GMT
I have 2 to get covered and I'm looking at some combination of the following:

Swiss Spirit
Sir Percy
Captain Gerrard

plus a foal from Tatts
Report truehoncho November 16, 2013 11:36 AM GMT
actually Champs Elysees is very much in that list as well
Report Wilycayote November 16, 2013 11:47 AM GMT
Truehoncho, where did you find my list?!

Seriously, if you remove Captain Gerrard (he did well, but just not a sales prospect for me) you have pretty much got my list of options for my few mares. I guess it goes to show the limited options at our price level this year.

Good luck with the foal pin-hook.
Report truehoncho November 16, 2013 12:07 PM GMT
Captain Gerrard is budget option if I go over budget elsewhere. If I got a nice colt foal by him I wouldn't be disappointed. I have a filly foal by him at the moment and I don't have any complaints. He should be available at less than £2k
Report potentialmillionaire November 16, 2013 12:13 PM GMT
Thanks for that Wily. I daresay he needs inspection but it helps to garner as much as you can as soon as poss.

Cheveley have made an art of standing crooked sprinters and doing well too. Sadly I have bred a few over the years and it really isn't the place I like to start. I do though have the perfect mare for Lethal Force but I am not sure she is nailed on to straighten one up.

I think that a sprinter will rarely swing along at the walk as you say although the fabulous 'agent' still likes to see what they like to see, never letting a good horse get in the way of a fashionable  purchase.
Report potentialmillionaire November 16, 2013 12:23 PM GMT
Guys, are we totally off Finjaan?

And Kheleyf at this end of the market?
Report Wilycayote November 16, 2013 12:36 PM GMT
Kheleyf is a decent stallion, but if you get a filly you are in trouble in my experience. I've used him twice, made money on a colt, lost on a filly.

If Finjaan had gone through a public sale he would have made around £50k. If 12 breeders use him they could buy the horse themselves!
If you want a Newmarket stallion at that sort of money then I'd rather Pastoral Pursuits every time.
Report potentialmillionaire November 16, 2013 1:39 PM GMT

I accept your point of view Wily and I do think it unlikely I would use Finjaan. I also think that a lot of these stallion prospects would make no money if publicly auctioned as the're all in the marketing really.
I am not sure I am brave enough to write off any fast 1st season sire with one fell swoop, especially one from a 'current' sireline. I've been left scratching my head once too often by the latest big thing. (Incidentally I do occasionally hit them too!)

Certainly I wouldn't trust a hardy perennial like Kheleyf and Pastoral Pursuits to outsell the next 'Fast Company'.
Report truehoncho November 16, 2013 1:48 PM GMT
Champs Elysees unlucky not to land a groups 3 in France (btn short head)

I only left Kheleyf out as my mare has an unraced 2yo and other one wouldn't suit. Agree he is worth consideration. I would rather pay £5k for him than £7.5k for Harbour Watch
Report randomtwat November 16, 2013 4:57 PM GMT
Just an quick query,what the rough cost of paying to rear an foal after buying one from the sale's.
Before either selling them as an yearling,or breeze ups got rough total in my mind.But probable an
million miles off as,Ive only been in yards of racing and one stud for short time
Report potentialmillionaire November 16, 2013 5:53 PM GMT
random, that's a big question!

How much is it going to cost to transport it to and from the sale, £500, or could you borrow a trailer?

Does it go wrong and pay our friend the vet's school fees? Or does it breeze through with just two jabs?

Are you going to look after it in a field behind your house or are you going to board it at Watership Down?

Are you going to prep it and present it or are you going to pay 4k to Highclere?

Will it need a 1k entry fee or are you going to do a 200 quid Doncaster job?

As you can see, I don't have the answers but if you can form a plan as to what path your pinhook, hypothetical or otherwise, will take, someone on here might have some more accurate ideas!
Report proxygene November 16, 2013 7:44 PM GMT
My word this threads been busy today, my list of possibles is not dissimilar either, tho may be refined - still 1/3 of first phase of input to do.

Maiden mare, Kheleyf, Champs, Delegator, Sir Percy, Aussie Rules but not if £6k is set in stone.
The other one Helmet, Foxwedge, Champs, poss Mount Nelson then Captain Gerrard or Sakhees Secret if I have (badly) messed the budget up.

I do need to look at some in the flesh though (Dalham and Lanwades).
Report randomtwat November 16, 2013 7:55 PM GMT
Ah totally accept your response potenial,I should of stated i'e

1st Doing the ground work and prep,&shown at sales myself

2nd Kept at own yard

3rd Rough cost of feed and supplements.

The vets fees i can understand if the horse goes wrong and jabs needed,
cost of transport would be for hired box unless deal can be done with
another close to where have the yard,at the time.I hope they clear
up partly what the aim is for myself in few year's time just trying,to
prepared and plan ahead get my saving's right so have right amount for
buying and taking the plunge.And then there insurance,I'm doing my research
and taking on-board what over people experience  have been and advice
Report yer ma November 17, 2013 7:02 PM GMT
Good luck random.  Pinhooking at the low end is v difficult because basically a big chunk of the yearling sales market is a cartel (of large vendors) and even if you have the nicest horse if you are a solo new vendor you may not get in a decent sale.  Lots of buyers only buy from certain vendors (the reasoning is 'unclear').  Its not fair but thats life as it stands.

Costs - same as keeping any horse until a 6-8 week prep depending on feed brand / supplement of £30-50 a week (cost).  Obligatory vet stuff about £150.  Insurance is about 4-6% of valuation of foal per annum.  Better sale £700+.  Transport min. £400.   So add at least £2k to your foal purchase to near break even (valuing your time as zero).  Clearly horses are generally dumb and hurt themselves / get sick but budgeting for this is almost imposs
Report randomtwat November 18, 2013 10:55 PM GMT
It does surprise me about the certain buyers stick to the bigger breeding operations.Something not in favor of myself,
but then it also give's someone hope of finding an decent bargain that won't appeal to many.Ive got an idea of what am
willing to spend on an foal,possible look at buying two when everything is set up and ready.Id guess many get into it
thinking it will be easy money Crazy this i know is never the case,as you state some foolish things young horse can
do.Ive never kept my own horse before so working out that side of cost something,Ive got to add on the total out lay to
total cost.I'm not just diving in going to take my time and be properly prepared as this is something been on my mind,
to try from my days as an whipper snapper.Its been very helpful all the information some have informed on so thank you
to all who have offered some,free advice.For now just keeping my eye on certain stallions and will follow there progeny
before selecting what id buy for first go into the world of pin hocking.Does anyone know how Dream ahead been received and
number of foals he had in first season at stud?.I am searching for relative information on numbers of foals by sires just
not had any joy at finding an site which offers the information
Report Young Broodmare Filly Wanted November 20, 2013 3:09 PM GMT
Any thoughts on Westlake?  Not going to be a source of speed but cheap option for excellent pedigree.
Report Posh Paddy November 20, 2013 8:43 PM GMT
Westlake's brother Powerscourt now stands in Turkey.  National Hunt stallion surely.
Report Wilycayote March 17, 2014 9:12 PM GMT
We've heard all the usual huff about first season sires getting mares in foal...Dawn Approach, Al Kazeem, Swiss Spirit, Cityscape etc

But, without wishing to stir we haven't heard anything from Farhh and Reckless Abandon. Is that just me being annoying or is there something to it? Darley usually first to trumpet that sort of thing.
Report potentialmillionaire March 18, 2014 11:31 AM GMT
It' odd how some do and some don't.

Coolmore aren't shouting from the roof tops about theirs either.

I suppose if you aren't actively touting for mares (I know, nor is Dawn Approach) then why bother?
Mind you for those of us booked to one of them it would be a comfort to hear without having to ring the stud to wring it out of them!

I am rather liking the cheap Requinto's foal pics a little more than the expensive Excelebration right now, by the by Devil
Report proxygene March 18, 2014 12:35 PM GMT
Where are you finding said pics?
Report potentialmillionaire March 18, 2014 10:28 PM GMT
Just the usual p.r. proxy. On a Coolmore mailing list, EBN, on line Rp maybe.
Report Wilycayote March 21, 2014 5:00 PM GMT
Heard Reckless Abandon might have to have his book reduced. Breeder I know was sending 2 mares, but is thinking of moving one to Society Rock and one to Foxwedge.

Everyone wants to use 1st season sires (including me!), but its easy to forget there's no guarantee.
Report potentialmillionaire March 21, 2014 6:27 PM GMT
Oh Wily, what a fab bit of juicy tittle tattle!!

I don't get to hear much to being neither  Newmarket or linked to a bloodstock agent.

R A was such a little immature looking thing when I saw him in December so perhaps time will sort him out.
It's always a bit of a surprise to me that more of these horses don't struggle particularly the 3 or 4yos that are piled high with mares. You are right to fire a warning and as one that suffered big time (best mare barren to Starspangledbanner) I am qualified to say that!
Several booked this year again mind Laugh
Report Wilycayote March 25, 2014 10:36 PM GMT
Has anyone sent a mare to Al Kazeem?
Report potentialmillionaire March 26, 2014 1:45 PM GMT
Are they releasing, Wily?
Report Wilycayote March 26, 2014 6:56 PM GMT
I dont think so. I have no reason to think he's not doing fine, my transporter guy just told me he's not the quickest in the shed. At least its a nice place to wait!

Am getting pretty excited about the start of the flat. Anyone know of any betting medium for first season sires?
Report Senor El Betrutti March 26, 2014 8:55 PM GMT
Wily I believe tomorrow's racing post has an article in it regarding first season sire betting.
Report Wilycayote April 22, 2014 4:28 PM BST
In light of Reckless Abandon & Alkazeem's issues (rather embarrassing considering my last comment!) I'm surprised there has not been more chat about any fallout on these pages.

Perhaps none of us a rich enough to have connections going to either of them!
Report proxygene June 30, 2014 4:10 PM BST
What does anyone make of the Camelot stallion photos?
The artistic Coolmore one compared to the 'conventional' one (hidden? but appearing) on pedigreequery.
Like the Declaration of War photo though.
Report proxygene June 30, 2014 4:13 PM BST
Ok pedigreequery looks like v early on for Camelot before letting down..
Report potentialmillionaire June 30, 2014 8:24 PM BST
Interesting Proxy.

I have based a lot of my opinion on Camelot on heresay,, yearling price and a yearling photo of him in the ring at Tatts.
All of which stack up. The picture of him on pedigree query is not quite what I expected, giving him his fathers hind leg, but better mind, and sadly losing his fathers shoulder which was one of the best I have ever seen.
To replace that shoulder it seems Mr Prospector got involved! So perhaps that is an answer to the Guineas speed.
I would have thought commercially a speedier type of mare might well work conformation wise because he is relatively deep and compact for a stayer so an addition of speed might not be the failure it often is with his altitudinal traits.

Obviously the photo is an early one, but I suspect he might have been one of Coolmore's busiest stallions ever this last season so it might be a while before he lets down to a photo prospect,

Another point I didn't factor in when making certain decisions earlier in the year!
Report Johnny_Mustang July 1, 2014 6:24 AM BST
Bungle Inthejungle - no, no, no, no. Sweet Jesus, this horse should not be allowed anywhere near a breeding shed. And I hate its name too, but that's probably nit picking.
Report neill d July 1, 2014 3:35 PM BST
You'd dread what we'll be looking at in 15 or 20 years time when the likes of Harbinger and Workforce have to go to Japan and this heap of **** gets a chance in Europe. It looks like the owners of Slade Power are looking towards Australia, he has 2yo form, he shouldn't be allowed to go.
Report potentialmillionaire July 1, 2014 5:10 PM BST
Johnny and Neil. Won't you stop beating around the bush and tell us what you really feel. All this sitting on the fence. . . .

This beautifully named horse is rated 100+ you know? And was not sold for a very substantial sum - 40k incidentally. What's not to like?

Seriously though, Maurice has plumbed the depths before and he's cranked up his submarine another notch or two and dived still deeper. Problem is though, it's not been altogether unsuccessful.
The wrinklier I get, the more I think extreme talent is not really a prerequisite of a successful stallion. Opportunity is key of course, but I think a good level of form, consistency and soundness sprinkled with a little magic dust and they really will come from anywhere.

Previously the support has not been forthcoming for an ordinary non classic type of stallion and they have not found a berth at stud. Now if they have a commercial angle they get a go, and I'm not sure their success rate percentages are massively different to the results of the mega opportunitied.

If people still want to breed a Derby winner in 15 to 20 years time then we will be Galileo/Montjeu saturated and those folks will need to give more thought to Workforce/harbinger types as something new. Problem is though, there will never be that many people looking to breed, or buy for that matter, their types and the market for those stallions will remain pretty polarised. Also, those types don't make the track often enough for me and I am not sure they have a lot to offer in keeping the breed particularly sound so perhaps they don't represent the total cure for the 'degeneration of the breed' that we sometimes paint them as.

Is the Derby winner with a non trad pedigree that only just stays the trip a weakness in the ongoing success of the breed?

For many, he is the shot of brilliance that keeps the speed alive and prevents them from all ending up at Market Rasen.

God, that was a rant was it not. . .
Report neill d July 3, 2014 10:11 PM BST
Thanks for the considered reply PM. Not being involved with the industry I'm often unaware of the practicalities of these things. I just don't like seeing these types when horses like Shirocco who are great outcross options are ignored and have to go National Hunt.
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